There's no OSAS

[guanophore]

Do Catholics believe that one is justified (saved) by faith alone?

Or, do they believe that one is justified by faith + works?

Your answer will answer your question in your post above.

A more appropriate formulation would be faith that works. Catholics consider justification, sanctification, and glorification to be one seamless garment. None of them can be separated from the others without tearing the garment.

When one apprehends the Catholic notion that the justified can lose their salvation on the basis of their sin, one grasps that Catholic salvation can be nothing but by works, and not by grace no matter the denials, IMO.

You are correct in saying this is your opinion. It is not Catholic teaching, but clearly this is what you mistakely believe.

On the contrary, Catholics do not presume to have apprehended salvation until the “last day”. Therefore, Catholics are not in danger of “losing” what they have not yet attained.

Also, you are in error if you think that a person’s salvation is based upon their own behavior, rather than God’s grace. Sin separates us from God. Separation from God makes eternal life impossible. It is not the “works” that save or condemn so much as the state of grace (or lack of it) created. If a persons’ faith is not mixed with grace, then one cannot be in a state of grace. If that happens, there is no amount of “work” a person can do that will merit anything in the Kingdom.

If your salvation can be lost based upon poor performance (mortal sin), then that salvation is ultimately performance, or works based, ISTM.

I agree. Salvation may not be attained, if a person does not abide in Christ, but since it has not been gained yet, it is not a matter of “losing” what one does not yet have.

Mortal sin is a state that separates a person from the sancitfying grace one needs to be saved. No one can “work” one’s way into saving grace. No amount of performance, or lack thereof will avail us of grace. One can only be saved by grace, through faith. If one then holds fast to the end, and does not fall from that grace, then one will inherit the treasure that has been laid up for them in heaven.

As Trent states:And, for this cause, life eternal is to be proposed to those working well unto the end, and hoping in God, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Jesus Christ, and as a reward which is according to the promise of God Himself, to be faithfully rendered to their good works and merits. For this is that crown of justice which the Apostle declared was, after his fight and course, laid up for him, to be rendered to him by the just judge, and not only to him, but also to all that love his coming. For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified, as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches, and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God, we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained also in its (due) time, if so be, however, that they depart in grace…Trent gives the nod to God’s grace and to Christ’s sacrifice, and the infusion of His virtue, but, they also conclude that the believer has "truly merited eternal life."

There is only one work that enables us to merit eternal life. Yet, without that work, we cannot enter into it.

John 6:28-29
28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Trent was fighting the Reformation cry of the “solas,” in this instance, justification by “faith alone,” and clearly states the opposite.

No, but perhaps it seems this way to you because you don’t conceive of faith as “work” (something a person does)?

That would seem to be the best form of being saved by the RCC understanding.
There would be no need to worry about losing one’s salvation in that scenario.

Since one cannot lose what one has not yet obtained, there is no need to “worry” in any case!

 

[brkn1]

Since one cannot lose what one has not yet obtained, there is no need to “worry” in any case!

Maybe for you that is true, but I would be very worried at the remotest possibility that I might not be saved, since eternal damnation is described by Jesus as one terrible place to end up in if I “mess up” here. Not being completely sure of my salvation would make life a scary proposition.

 

[DCD]

brkn1

Well at some point pray about it. No it would not. The mercies and power of God as also, in the merits of Jesus Christ, as if they were not of force enough to save us. This is the sin of Cain. I am hopeful you are living a life grace. And repenting as soon as you may need it.

Pax,
DCD

 

[JRKH]

Catholics believe we are saved by grace. The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Per the Catechism. That is why we can say we are saved by both faith and works. The protestant in order to appease his conscience leaves that out in the Sunday sermon, the Wednesday night bible study, or the water cooler discussion. Some of this is ignorance sometimes it’s not. The Truth needs no defense, and when it is presented accurately, tends to bring some of the best and brightest Home to Christ’s Church.

God Bless,
DCD

Well Said

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH
It’s interesting that you feel that the bible is sooooo clear about when it says anything supportive of OSAS, but when the Bible says something else, just as clearly, there seems to be some need for “understanding of what Jesus said”.

Actually your response to my post shows promise. It indicates a question.

the point i am making is that jeus never wants us to rest or be self-satisfied with our state of salvation. I know of no time that Jesus ever told someone that they had done everything they needed to do. He was always exhorting His followers to do more. Instructing them in the way of sanctity.

Too often we, all of us, can get complacent in our positions as God’s Children. It’s too easy to say that, “I’ve done what is required,” instead of saying what more can I do. Not for Salvation per-se but for Love of our God and Witness to that Love.

Having included Catholics in the above, it must be noted that, the OSAS concept falls into that same trap as the OT Jews, who were confident in being “God’s Chosen People” and felt that, as long as they kept the law they were safe, - they were saved. In a very real sense they felt that they were OSAS by their birth and observance of the Law, yet Jesus took them to task for what was in their hearts.

We (all of us) know that we profess with our lips. We know that we try to believe in our hearts. We know that we are blessed with grace through the Holy spirit. But do we have the Faith of Christ? Do we do the works of Christ? Do we do the things that Jesus said we would do if we have faith?
If we don’t then how can we - any of us be soooo sure of our salvation that we think we don’t have work to do on ourselves.

Certainly this includes every person in the world, Catholic or Protestant. Certainly this requires an ever greater reliance on our Father and our Lord Jesus.

So as i move forward, in faith, I will try and try and try again to live the life God wants me to. I will stumble, rise and stumble again. When I finally cannot rise anymore I trust that my Lord Jesus will be there to lift me up and carry me. And I hope that he will say of me, in spite of my miserable efforts, 'Well done good and faithful servant."

Amen
Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

The verses in Hebrews 6:4-8 might not be the best ones to use to argue against OSAS.

Even if it were interpreted incorrectly, it goes against the idea that the RCC presents about the salvation “process”.

Heb. 6:4…“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.”
This verse could not fit into the RCC position, since they do not believe that there is a “once enlightened” position in the “process” of being saved. This partaking of the grace of the Holy Spirit is supposed to be a “gradual process”, not a single “once enlightening”.
This verse speaks of a position of being enlightened now before death, which then means from the later verses, that the enlightened position had better not be lost (falling away by sin etc.), or there is then NO way “to renew them again unto repentance;”.
That would mean the Pope could not even pardon you, since there is NO way to renew.

The correct interpretation of (Hebrews 6:4) has to be speaking of those people, such as Judas, who tasted of the heavenly gift, as the Holy Spirit got very close and personal, as He tried to woo that person towards eternal salvation by the free gift of faith in Jesus Christ, and that person then knowingly (from actual experience) and deliberately refused to “eat” (accept) that obvious offer of eternal salvation; then it is over with no second chances. That sort of rejection of the Holy Spirit’s immediate and obvious offer will result in a hardened heart that can never respond again to grace.

These verses support the idea of a “before death” obtaining of the Holy Spirit’s gift of eternal life, or it could not be considered as refused before death obviously. Even interpreted incorrectly, the “before death” rejection applies, which contradicts the RCC position.

Please clarify the “RCC position” that you are refering to here. Catholic document reference please.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Maybe for you that is true, but I would be very worried at the remotest possibility that I might not be saved, since eternal damnation is described by Jesus as one terrible place to end up in if I “mess up” here. Not being completely sure of my salvation would make life a scary proposition.

Yes it would!!!
Life is supposed to be a scary proposition.
Do we accept God and work in His vinward? or do we reject Him and be cast off and burned?
We are tested here, and that test doesn’t end when we profess belief, temptation only gets greater as we move toward God.

Peace
James

 

[jcoldc]

Nice “answer”. That sort of “answer” is why I had to re-ask the questions. Try again. Answer me, truthfully and honestly, before you expect me to even bother with your own questions.

I am honestly trying to get some answers from you. My “answer” is how I see it. Do you have an answer or not? If you answered it before, I’m sorry I haven’t poured through 20 pages of this thread.

Please enlighten me. Also, please see below.

Romans 14:10
But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

Phil, why are we going to stand before the judgment seat of God, if we are so assuredly saved? Why would God bother judging us?

 

[sandusky]

guanophore:

A more appropriate formulation would be faith that works. Catholics consider justification, sanctification, and glorification to be one seamless garment. None of them can be separated from the others without tearing the garment.

You blur the lines between N-C and RC theology very easily. For the Catholic, justification = faith + works; Trent, and the CCC all give the nod to grace, and to Christ, as I stated; nevertheless, as Trent states, it can be said that the RC has “truly merited eternal life.” Those documents are available for all to see.

guanophore:

You are correct in saying this is your opinion. It is not Catholic teaching, but clearly this is what you mistakely believe.

There’s no mistake on my part, but, ISTM, the mistake is on yours. Loss of grace, loss of justification, loss of salvation—whatever you’re calling it at this particular moment, guanophore—all is forfeited by bad behavior.

guanophore:

I agree. Salvation may not be attained, if a person does not abide in Christ, but since it has not been gained yet, it is not a matter of “losing” what one does not yet have.

Of course, guanophore, that’s your particular “rap” at this particular time; however, when the next person comes along and says that Catholics are’nt saved, you’ll argue that indeed you are—you have been saved, are presently saved, and will be saved.

guanophore:

No, but perhaps it seems this way to you because you don’t conceive of faith as “work” (something a person does)?

Scripturally, faith is described as a gift.

 

[guanophore]

Maybe for you that is true, but I would be very worried at the remotest possibility that I might not be saved, since eternal damnation is described by Jesus as one terrible place to end up in if I “mess up” here. Not being completely sure of my salvation would make life a scary proposition.

I see your point, but worry is as much of a sin as presumption. Both swing the pendulum too far from the Center. Jesus is clear that it is the Father’s good pleasure to give us the kingdom. Doubting this is an offense against God.

Perhaps one reason people claim to this new doctrine of OSAS is an unwillingness to face one’s own fears? To walk in the light, as He is in the light daily, trusting him (but not presuming upon His grace) is a constant exercise of faith, hope and love. This is our spiritual worship, but I know it is too challenging for many. It requires a lot of self discipline, which is why Jesus says the road is narrow.

You blur the lines between N-C and RC theology very easily.

Truthfully, I do not see that there is a big difference between Catholic and Calvanist theology. I think most of the differences people perceive emanate from a lack of understanding of either one or the other. As you have defined in your posts, you believe that it is incumbent upon the believer to live a life of sanctity and godliness. This is very Catholic.

For the Catholic, justification = faith + works; Trent, and the CCC all give the nod to grace, and to Christ, as I stated; nevertheless, as Trent states, it can be said that the RC has “truly merited eternal life.” Those documents are available for all to see.

But obviously not understood by all who read them, as you have demonstrated here. It would be more accurate to say the Catholic position is “faith, working through love”. The faith that saves is a faith that works. That is why, when Paul is talking about the greatest gifts, he identifies love, not faith, as the greatest. If one has saving faith, it will be demonstrated in ones works.

There’s no mistake on my part, but, ISTM, the mistake is on yours. Loss of grace, loss of justification, loss of salvation—whatever you’re calling it at this particular moment, guanophore—all is forfeited by bad behavior.

You are making a mistake because you are misunderstanding/misinterpreting the catholic teaching. I suppose you are imposing your pre-conceived notions upon it, so that you are unable to understand what you are reading.

As I have said, Catholics do not look at salvation as an event that happens in a single point in time. It is a state, being in a state of grace. Yes, for some, it does begin at an identifiyable point in time. If one chooses to step out of that state of grace, the grace still remains. Grace is not lost, it is just that a person is no longer standing in it. Think of it as a river. We enter the river of salvation at baptism. We can choose to get out. And as long as we are alive on earth, the possiblity remains that we can return to the river of life. However, the possibility also remains that we can spurn the river, and never return. That choice does not mean one never entered the river. It also does not mean that the river is no longer flowing. Bad behavior cannot make the river of life disappear. All it means is that the person is not within the saving waters that are flowing.

Of course, guanophore, that’s your particular “rap” at this particular time; however, when the next person comes along and says that Catholics are'nt saved, you’ll argue that indeed you are—you have been saved, are presently saved, and will be saved.

And that is a problem because?

Scripturally, faith is described as a gift.

Indeed, just like all of our humanity is God’s gift to us. And just like we can choose to put our members into sinful endeavors, we can also choose to put our faith into wrong places. The exercise of faith is within the control of the person. It is His gift to us. What we do with it is our gift to Him.

Why does Jesus say so many times “you faith has made you well”. Would we not all agree that it is only the grace of God that can heal? His grace is always there to heal, just as the River of life flows eternal. It is by the faculty of faith that humans can enter that water.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Originally Posted by sandusky forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Of course, guanophore, that’s your particular “rap” at this particular time; however, when the next person comes along and says that Catholics are’nt saved, you’ll argue that indeed you are—you have been saved, are presently saved, and will be saved.

It more akin to this:

I’m saved (Eph 2:5-8), being saved (1 Cor 1:8), and hope I’ll be saved (1 Cor 3:12-15).
I’'m working out my salvation in fear (Phi 2:12), with hopeful confidence in Christ (Rom 5:2).

 

[MementoMori3283]

What happened to Paul on the road to Damascus? He was converted 180 degrees in a moment.

sorry for the late entry - However, may I submit Acts 9:1-30 KJV

1And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

9And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

10And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake.

17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; **and putting his hands on him **said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, **and be filled with the Holy Ghost. **
18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

19And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. **Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. **
20And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

21But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?

22But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.

23And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him:

24But their laying await was known of Saul. And they watched the gates day and night to kill him.

25Then the disciples took him by night, and let him down by the wall in a basket.

26And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.

27But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.

28And he was with them coming in and going out at Jerusalem.

29And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him.

30Which when the brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus.

 

[po18guy]

The office of Apostle is a very specific office that is no longer active.

Scripture verse, please.

Where have those signs, wonders, and miracles of true apostles been performed since the death of John?

The driving out of demons has never stopped, as one example. This interview may chill you, but in actuality, evil has no power over you unless you allow or invite it: signandsight.com/features/530.html

Christ’s peace

 

[po18guy]

OSAS makes about as much sense as OCAC (Once Condemned Always Condemned). Both are actually rather silly concepts, since all of us bible readers know:

Matthew 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Mark 10:27 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”

Thus, Christ says that you are neither always saved, nor always condemned. The sole exception being blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

So, get to work you OSASers! Good works don’t matter? They’re not necessary for salvation? OK…

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

And this was John, not James writing this.

Christ’s peace.

 

[po18guy]

What was Paul’s response to the Philippians jailer’s question concerning what he had to do
to believe?

Acts 16:29-34 (New International Version) The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole family.

Where is that stated?

Let’s back up: You must become a disciple, (root word discipline) and follow Christ. But, how do you do that? 1. Deny yourself. 2. Take up your cross. 3. Follow Christ. Following Christ is the third thing you must do.

Matthew 28:19 “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” So, Christ mentions baptism rather specifically.

 

[sandusky]

po18guy:

Scripture verse, please.

The qualifications called for by Peter, your alleged “first pope,” included that the replacement for Judas must have been “with us from the first,” and he must be “a witness with us of His resurrection.”

Since that first generation of the church, no one meets those qualifications, neither have any performed the signs, wonders, miracles of a “true apostle.”

Furthermore, Christ chose, and trained the inner circle of twelve to become the permanent apostles of the Lamb (Rev 21:14), the “twelve tribes” of the New Israel (Mt 19:28).

OSAS makes about as much sense as OCAC (Once Condemned Always Condemned). Both are actually rather silly concepts, since all of us bible readers know:

As a Catholic, you are required to believe that:
“GOD, BY HIS ETERNAL RESOLVE OF WILL, HAS PREDETERMINED CERTAIN MEN TO ETERNAL BLESSEDNESS (De fide)”

And that:
“GOD, BY AN ETERNAL RESOLVE OF HIS WILL, PREDESTINES CERTAIN MEN, ON ACCOUNT OF THEIR FORESEEN SINS, TO ETERNAL REJECTION (De fide).”

(From Ott.)

The first froup can’t lose their salvation (“OSAS”), and the second group can’t lose their condemnation (“OCAC”).

 

[sandusky]

Acts 16:29-34 (New International Version) The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole family.

Let’s back up: You must become a disciple, (root word discipline) and follow Christ. But, how do you do that? 1. Deny yourself. 2. Take up your cross. 3. Follow Christ. Following Christ is the third thing you must do.

Matthew 28:19 “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” So, Christ mentions baptism rather specifically.

You seem to be having a difficult time giving me a straight answer; I understand.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Originally Posted by brkn1 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
What happened to Paul on the road to Damascus? He was converted 180 degrees in a moment.

In a moment? 180 degrees? Was it by Faith or FEAR? You really have to put yourself back in time to Sauls time and view this from a primitive man’s view(Yes, Primitive by our current comparative existence, this veiwing always seem to be abscent when one[protestant) is trying to in their mind, rightly dividing theWord of God)

3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4And he fell to the earth, (FEAR OF THE LIGHT, HE KNEW THE SOURCE WAS DVINE, SO FEAR IS RIGHTLY APPLIED GIVEN THE OT REQUIREMENTS AND VIRTUES OF FEARING GOD)

and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? (PAUL IS BEING CHARGED WITH PERSECUTION FROM A SOURCE TO BE FEARED)

6And he trembling(FEAR, NO DOUBT, PROBABLY THOUGHT HE WAS GOING TO BE STRUCK DEAD AT ANY MOMENT LET ALONE BEING BLINDED) and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, **and it shall be told thee what thou must do

If Saul converted 180 degrees right there on the spot, It surely was not by Faith, but by Fear and Divine Intervention. And of a Fear that he might be blinded for life for persecuting followers of God.

Paul’s did not become a believer by FIRST BELIEVING, it was thru DIRECT DIVINE INTERVENTION AND THE FEAR OF GOD.

I could imagine, if Paul had his sight restored immediately, he would have run all the way to the city.

Reading scripture should be in the context of those it was happening to and in the context of era in which it was written. Scripture read with a modern mentality will create nothing but further divisions of the flock.

 

[sandusky]

DCD:

What is ISTM?

It Seems To Me.

DCD:

It would be through unrepented mortal sin that you forfeit the gift.

If, as you say, unrepentant mortal sin causes one to lose justification/salvation, then that one who “forfeits” the gift was never justified/saved to begin with.

This is so, because God states that everyone He justifies, He also glorifies; therefore, if one fails to be glorified, the reason is not, as you say because of “unrepentant sin,” but it is because God had never chosen that one to be finally glorified, and so, never justified that one in the first place (cf Rom 8:29-30).

 

[Phil12123]

I am honestly trying to get some answers from you. My “answer” is how I see it. Do you have an answer or not? If you answered it before, I’m sorry I haven’t poured through 20 pages of this thread.

Please enlighten me. Also, please see below.

Romans 14:10
But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

Phil, why are we going to stand before the judgment seat of God, if we are so assuredly saved? Why would God bother judging us?

**This is crazy. I asked some questions very relevant to OSAS way back on page 10, repeated on page 23, and we are now at page 26 or 27 and neither you nor guanophore has specifically addressed them. So, now you want me to answer your question, which I can easily do, but then what? Continue to ignore mine? Did you ask me any questions before page 10 that I did not answer for you? Go back and answer mine and I guarantee I will answer your present question about the judgment seat. Fair enough?

In case you need help finding it on page 23, here it is:**

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3622017&posted=1#post3622017