This is terrifying - Could this be the end of the Church in America?

[wisdomseeker]

It does, wisdomseeker! It really does help a lot. You are your forum moniker. Now I understand what people mean.

There is nothing in your post I disagree with. Infact, this is why those of us who left CAN come back. Because it is Truth. And it is Truth that is a rock solid foundation to build one’s life on.

I can see now why some Catholics (and I will dispense with the labels of some types of Catholics) want other Catholics to leave. I guess it’s not so much the Catholics themselves, but these … heretical (I guess you can say) ideas that some Catholics have. In a sense then, it appears that this is in the works with the American Catholic Council that LizaAnne posted and started this thread on. And that is a disturbing idea.

By the way, your last statement, totally with you on that.

 

[Roy5]

ONE PROTESTANT VIEW

For what's worth, here are a few impressions of a 'heretical' Protestant.

(1) Radicals within the Catholic Church will not make much headway in winning mainstream Catholics. Most radicals have been leaving the church anyway, often to become nothing in particular, sometimes liberal Protestants. A larger group of Catholics, frankly, not radicals, seem to find their way into conservative evangelical churches. Going from one authoritarian organization to another? Interesting.

 (2) Most Catholics I know do have three opinions that collide with current Catholic policy, not necessarily doctrine. They favor the right of priests to marry if they choose to and as they once did. They favor women having a bigger leadership role, perhaps deaconesses as they appear to have been in the early church. They take a more tolerant view of gays and lesbians than official church policy. Here in the northeast the legislatures of such heavily Catholic states as Massachusetts and Connecticut have approved same-sex marriage.

  (3) Most Catholics certainly do not approve of abortion on demand. Many, however, do accept it under special circumstances, such as rape and the health of the mothers - the lesser choice of two evils.

  (4) The real danger to Catholicism is from a massive exodus among young people. In Quebec, where the church was very strong 40-50 years ago, the impression took hold that the church had really been oppressive. This same idea is strong in contemporary Ireland. Today only a small percentage of Catholics attend mass in Quebec and the percentage in Ireland is way off from a generation or two ago. 

   (5) What promises to keep Catholicism from slipping too much in the USA is the heavy and rapid growth of Hispanics, legal and illegal. Many of them are peeled off by the evangelicals in particular, but most of them are more devout than other Catholics. It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next generation or two.

    God bless all Christians - and Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and every creed and color, nation and race.

 

[wisdomseeker]

ONE PROTESTANT VIEW

For what's worth, here are a few impressions of a 'heretical' Protestant.

(1) Radicals within the Catholic Church will not make much headway in winning mainstream Catholics. Most radicals have been leaving the church anyway, often to become nothing in particular, sometimes liberal Protestants. A larger group of Catholics, frankly, not radicals, seem to find their way into conservative evangelical churches. Going from one authoritarian organization to another? Interesting.

 (2) Most Catholics I know do have three opinions that collide with current Catholic policy, not necessarily doctrine. They favor the right of priests to marry if they choose to and as they once did. They favor women having a bigger leadership role, perhaps deaconesses as they appear to have been in the early church. They take a more tolerant view of gays and lesbians than official church policy. Here in the northeast the legislatures of such heavily Catholic states as Massachusetts and Connecticut have approved same-sex marriage.

  (3) Most Catholics certainly do not approve of abortion on demand. Many, however, do accept it under special circumstances, such as rape and the health of the mothers - the lesser choice of two evils.

  (4) The real danger to Catholicism is from a massive exodus among young people. In Quebec, where the church was very strong 40-50 years ago, the impression took hold that the church had really been oppressive. This same idea is strong in contemporary Ireland. Today only a small percentage of Catholics attend mass in Quebec and the percentage in Ireland is way off from a generation or two ago. 

   (5) What promises to keep Catholicism from slipping too much in the USA is the heavy and rapid growth of Hispanics, legal and illegal. Many of them are peeled off by the evangelicals in particular, but most of them are more devout than other Catholics. It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next generation or two.

    God bless all Christians - and Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and every creed and color, nation and race.

if you knew the history of the Church, you would know the oucome… she will grow even more. Catholics started small in America under protestants oppression. today there are more Catholics than protestants. in englands there were very few Catholics after the killings and destruction of the Church by england and today we have more Catholics than anglicans. that is how our Lord works. when it all seems to be the end of the CC, the CC rises with the Lord again and again.

 

[Roy5]

Hm!

More Catholics than Protestants in the USA? I personally don't think that God cares either way, as we all are God's children. But Protestants still outnumber Catholics 2-1 in the USA, roughly 50% to 25%. Catholicism is holding its own largely because nine out of ten Christian immigrants, legal or illegal, are Catholics. But in Connecticut, for example, Catholics had been 47% of the population, now they are 38%. The sex scandal hurt badly along with a couple prominent priests in the state badly misusing parish finances for personal pleasure.

 But the count may not be as important as how many take their religious seriously. Both Catholicism and liberal Protestantism have been hurt in this respect. Here in the northeast the main gainers have been evangelicals. The mainline Protestant churches (mine) have badly faltered, and most Catholics I know are liberal thinkers. Many attend mass faithfully, while many don't. The unchurched percentage has risen sharply, so we Christians of all descriptions need to do a better job.  

  You have to travel to strongly Protestant areas to sense the national situation. I was in the upper rural south awhile ago (NC, TN). Large Protestant churches everywhere - especially Baptist - but mostly small Catholic parishes, often serving more than one community. 

   There was plenty of persecution by both Catholics and Protestants historically. My mother's Protestant family fled Belgium one night after the City Council ordered my ancestral grandfather (a Huguenot by then) to appear. He was sure he would face execution.  His grandchildren became part of the Puritan immigration to New England. My father's ancestry was French-Canadian Catholic. One great-grandfather became Protestant, then moved to New England because, as my French-speaking grandmother used to say, the English Canadians looked down on them because they were French and the French looked down on them because were Protestant. The percentage of Quebec  Catholics who attend mass today is pitiful.

   Let's hope and pray that Christians and those of all faiths can live in mutual respect, that religion can become a bridge and not a barrier. That's my dream. It's sad that the religion of love as taught by Christ so often has been a source of so much prejudice and misunderstanding. Our theology and church affiliation are far less important than our love of God and one another. Jesus obviously taught that, as when he gave the parable of the Good Samaritan in response to the question: "What shall I do to inherit eternal life?" (Luke 10:25-37),  He made no reference to doctrine or to any church.

 

[EasterJoy]

Is this a Charismatic movement?

No…at least, I do not know anyone who is pushing for these changes who is also a Charismatic.

This is a movement of people within the Church who believe that the Church needs to be taught by secularist, modernist, rationalist, and misguided feminist views, not to mention every other contemporary invention of human foolishness. They expect the heirarchy to be obedient to their sense of things, but do not want to be obedient to the heirarchy.

The greatest danger, IMHO, is that it has taken the view that one can have one’s cake and eat it, too: That is, one can pretend communion with the Church without conforming onesself to the authority of the Church at all. One can be disobedient and pretend it is obedience to God instead of to men. Some have even publicly taken the stance that it is possible to “reject” one’s ex-communication! The nonsense one can believe when one works at it strains belief.

It won’t end the Church in America, because there are too many of the faithful who just don’t buy this nonsense and who won’t lie down and be mowed over by it. It has and will continue to lead many astray and will cause a great deal of strife and disunity within the Church. It is a serious problem, and there is no doubt about that. Still, this kind of thing has been going on since Paul started preaching. I would not fear that the Holy Spirit will capitulate to it. We need to do our part–and must remain within charity and the other primary commandments in doing so!–but we need not fear that God will not do His.

That is a point: the devil is not above using the faults of one group to lead another group into the opposite fault. It is extremely important not to be tempted in letting the end of fidelity justify uncharitable means, even if someone else in opposition takes that tack. We have to keep the main thing the main thing. Love one another. Love our enemies. No matter who you are looking at, love them and thirst for their salvation, because God does.

 

[jesuspsr]

Greeting eveyone.

Well the way I see this is, these people are not catholic they can say they are but thier not.
The church has been persucuted and attacked since the begenning and and we have not fallen nor shall we ever. God is always with his Church. I will not waver from my faith.
jesus g

 

[ErichK]

View the story here

I don’t think taking this lightly is a good idea. What is the Church going to do about this? What are WE going to do about this?

I think this is terrifying - think of the timing of this event. Right before a major election season when every liberal politician in the country is going to be loving this up and jumping on the band wagon. We already know what that sort of response did to the presidential election. Make no mistake, if the liberal media and politicians get behind this event and this organization, they could be unstoppable.

americancatholiccouncil.org/

This looks very much to me like a call for schism in the Church.

~Liza

I wouldn’t say it’s terrifying-just very disappointing to see the people of this country reject Christ. However, this is what happened when Christ was living-people betrayed Him and scorned Him, even though they saw Him with their own eyes. Yet, those who keep their faith and constant communion with Christ with ardent zeal will be rewarded the greatest, and the faithless and betrayers will recieve their due gift.

 

[Ignatius]

View the story here

I don’t think taking this lightly is a good idea. What is the Church going to do about this? What are WE going to do about this?

I think this is terrifying - think of the timing of this event. Right before a major election season when every liberal politician in the country is going to be loving this up and jumping on the band wagon. We already know what that sort of response did to the presidential election. Make no mistake, if the liberal media and politicians get behind this event and this organization, they could be unstoppable.

americancatholiccouncil.org/

This looks very much to me like a call for schism in the Church.

~Liza

Maybe Pelosi, Biden, Sebelius, the Kennedys et. all will join them. I say Good riddance!

 

[nsper7]

View the story here

I don’t think taking this lightly is a good idea. What is the Church going to do about this? What are WE going to do about this?

I think this is terrifying - think of the timing of this event. Right before a major election season when every liberal politician in the country is going to be loving this up and jumping on the band wagon. We already know what that sort of response did to the presidential election. Make no mistake, if the liberal media and politicians get behind this event and this organization, they could be unstoppable.

americancatholiccouncil.org/

This looks very much to me like a call for schism in the Church.

~Liza

I haven’t read all the posts, but if the ACC wants to meet and prance around, who cares? The Catholic Church is not a democracy. People can make declarations and agreements and everything else, but if they try to implement their own doctrine, such as “gay marriage”, “women’s ordination”, etc. the Pope and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith will come down on them real fast. If they want to schism, let them. It’ll get the liberal loonies from messing up the True Church. Let them make some phony-baloney schismed “catholic church” and screw that up while the True Catholic Church (y’know, the one headed by the Pope, not a bunch of progressives) go on preaching the Truth.

 

[distracted]

i am not terriefied… more disgusted …

If people want a new Church they’ve got 33,000 to choose from (and that’s just christian religions)…

i think what’s going on is that they just want to drag as many Catholics and so-called Catholics down with them…

what does that remind us of?

it reminds me of satan and how he wants to drag as many souls to Hell as he can…

Jesus said there are few who find the narrow road that leads to eternal life so this kind of thing doesn’t surprise me…

i think we should all show up, though…

and crash their little party… carry signs that say something like it

“The Catholic Church doesn’t need to change - YOU do”

or somethign liike that…

 

[wisdomseeker]

i am not terriefied… more disgusted …

If people want a new Church they’ve got 33,000 to choose from (and that’s just christian religions)…

i think what’s going on is that they just want to drag as many Catholics and so-called Catholics down with them…

what does that remind us of?

it reminds me of satan and how he wants to drag as many souls to Hell as he can…

Jesus said there are few who find the narrow road that leads to eternal life so this kind of thing doesn’t surprise me…

i think we should all show up, though…

and crash their little party… carry signs that say something like it

"The Catholic Church doesn’t need to change - YOU do"

or somethign liike that…

this is a good one. this only proves that the attacks will never stops. the deformation couldnt do it. so many others will come. St Paul says that only those who remain faithfull to the end will be saved. so there we have it.

 

[distracted]

this is a good one. this only proves that the attacks will never stops. the deformation couldnt do it. so many others will come. St Paul says that only those who remain faithfull to the end will be saved. so there we have it.

so, are you going to Michigan in 2011?

i would love to but probably won’t be able to…

yes, those who think the Church needs to change (anything important like doctrines) are really projecting onto the Church their own need to change…

 

[distracted]

.

it is not all that terrifying…

becaues Jesus promised His Church would endure … would overcome even the very gates of Hell…

If the Church can overcome Satan it can o/come
some weanies who form a silly rally to attack Her…

 

[Jacafamala]

I really believe that this is all the product of poor catechesis, you know.

 

[distracted]

I really believe that this is all the product of poor catechesis, you know.

what is?

wanting to change the Church to be more liberal?/

in that case, i agree…

and that is the one thing that angers me about the Church… that it doesn’t catechize pepole well… or at all…

i was one who wasn’t catechized…

and i have the scars to show that it is NOT goodto be uncatechized!!!

 

[wisdomseeker]

so, are you going to Michigan in 2011?

i would love to but probably won’t be able to…

yes, those who think the Church needs to change (anything important like doctrines) are really projecting onto the Church their own need to change…

i wish i could go and hold my sign but i cant.

i wonder what donahue is doing about this attack on the CC by so called Catholics.

i think Catholics are so worried about the outsiders that have forgot what is really going on the inside. let’s clean up the house first, the outside will be taken off.

 

[distracted]

i wish i could go and hold my sign but i cant.

i wonder what donahue is doing about this attack on the CC by so called Catholics.

i think Catholics are so worried about the outsiders that have forgot what is really going on the inside. let’s clean up the house first, the outside will be taken off.

yeah didn’t we have Mass readings that said that recently? (Scirpture)

i htink the people who try to change the Church (liberalize it ) haven’t even been on the inside much… They may go to mass every other Sun or something about like that… but that’s the end of it…

One really cool thing about being Catholic is that there is Mass EVERY day (except maybe Monays, Priests’ day off… but some parishes even have Mass on Mon)…

 

[wisdomseeker]

yeah didn’t we have Mass readings that said that recently? (Scirpture)

i htink the people who try to change the Church (liberalize it ) haven’t even been on the inside much… They may go to mass every other Sun or something about like that… but that’s the end of it…

One really cool thing about being Catholic is that there is Mass EVERY day (except maybe Monays, Priests’ day off… but some parishes even have Mass on Mon)…

that is nice. but i am talking about inside the CC, people are getting away with a lot of stuff in these days. many has lost respect for the Church since VII. these people came to believe that the Church must go with the trend, they probably got this idea from the Council. this Council seemed to have given lots of power to the people. you know, do as the people says. i for one heard the priest saying, VII says to give the Church back to the people. whatever this means.

 

[distracted]

that is nice. but i am talking about inside the CC, people are getting away with a lot of stuff in these days. many has lost respect for the Church since VII. these people came to believe that the Church must go with the trend, they probably got this idea from the Council. this Council seemed to have given lots of power to the people. you know, do as the people says. i for one heard the priest saying, VII says to give the Church back to the people. whatever this means.

back to the people?? i didn’t know they ever had it… had it and then lost it… ??

the Church is the hierarchy also and they, obvoiusly, are more well-informed on what all it means to be Catholic than the people… more catechized…

sounds like revolutionary jargon…

well, anyone who knows much about the Fr Revolution knows how flawed THAT was (giving the gov’t to the people!!! ) “flawed”, to say the least…

the oppressed became the oppressors…

but maybe i digress too much… and not entirely on track… sounds like me…

i hate the results of Vat II…

John 23rd was far from my favorite pope…

but anyhow… i had something else to say but forgot… i probably need a good calorie-laden meal… :stretcher::whacky:

 

[ProVobis]

View the story here

Some people just have too much time on their hands.