Thousands protest Wisconsin anti-union bill

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In the case of Wisconsin, collective bargaining is being limited, not abolished.
It will be limited to a significant extent. It’s sardonic to suggest that there will be any meaningful bargaining rights left. As I mentioned in another post, there is a cap on the the wage increase state employees will be able to get, using a baseline that was created under circumstances where unions could accept less of a wage hike for more benefits.
 
I do not know about that. I just wanted to clarify the point that collective bargaining on wages would still be open, so it is a hard sell to say there is a Catholic position on this.
Well, I don’t think the Catholic bishops of Wisconsin agree with you. If someone puts party loyalty above their Catholicism, then it’s a hard sell.
 
As opposed to Governor Walker trying to eviscerate the teacher’s union while exempting those unions which endorsed him?
Yes. Governor Walker is attempting to reel in spending whereas President Obama did the opposite. After all even democrats will benefit from his budget cuts.😉
 
Yes. Governor Walker is attempting to reel in spending…
If Walker really believed that evicerating the unions is a real means of reducting debt then all of them would be on the chopping block; not just the ones which opposed his candidacy. This is pure political revenge.
 
Getting rid of collective bargaining is a bad idea.
Maybe so for some. But I think collective bargaining should be limited to those who produce, and those who continue to produce by limiting union membership to those who meet a criteria of results.

As for me, and many others. Leave the “bargaining” to me. I’ve had to threaten boss’s before in many different ways, don’t think I wont do it again.
 
Not a dodge at all- Its the Truth. He is removing collective bargaining for benefits but NOT for wages. How supporting collective bargaing is “union busting” is beyoind me.
O’Reilly put up an analysis tonight trying to argue that the pensions make up for the salary differences between public/private workers. His numbers failed, but he drew the conclusion anyway that the pensions are too large. Using his numbers, private workers still earn a ton more money over the years than public workers, pensions included.

I’ll repeat my solution :
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Nec5:
The governor and the union leaders should call each others’ bluff. Today is Sunday. Agree to meet Monday and agree to to the budget cuts. If this is indeed about money or the lack thereof, then collective bargaining should not be in the agreement. The cuts should be in it. Whichever side refuses to show up will then have tipped their hand about the real issue: absolute power to force the other side to become a quasi-slave (be it public workers and cronyism/abuse or a government enslaved to unreasonable worker demands).

All other arguments are a sideshow. The fact that the governor won’t call this meeting is telling. It isn’t really about the budget, so he should quit being deceptive. If the unions are lying about accepting the cuts, a meeting would instantly reveal their dishonesty too.

The balance between unions and employers has always been ugly. If one side begins to dominate, corruption and evil spread like wildfire (bribes, using bats on workers, etc). Unions and their progressive friends have had the upper hand for a while, yet this is one of those cases where we should not throw out the baby with the bath water. Unions definitely have their place, in and out of government, but they must be tempered just as they temper employers. Destroying their ability to bargain is not necessary when budget constraints are required. The meeting I proposed would work.
The argument put forth here that there should be bargaining for wages and not benefits is not honest. All of us go to work for one purpose: to receive compensation that will allow us and our families to survive/thrive. Normally, the compensation is money. Yet, many companies/gov’ts don’t want to go that route because it is cheaper to provide benefits as compensation instead of money. That’s basic substitution.

Therefore, when someone says the governor is not union busting or only focusing on benefits, it is indeed a cut into what a workers gets paid (payment coming via benefits instead of cash). Again, maybe the cut is necessary; the unions have agreed to it. The governor won’t take yes for an answer because he wants to take away the employee’s ability to ban together and safeguard compensation.

My solution works because it cuts through the nonsense. If this is a purely budgetary issue as so-called conservatives argue and the unions accept the cut, then do it. If it’s about something other than the workers taking cuts to balance the budget, then that’s a different animal. My recommendation to the protesters is to haul a desk into the capital with a contract on it accepting all the governor’s budgetary cuts. If he won’t sign the contract that includes his suggested cuts, then begin arguing that the governor is the one not wanting to balance the budget.

By the way, if I had things my way, no worker would get benefits. They would get higher pay instead to spend on the things they need/want. Benefits have allowed a lot of shenanigans on both sides and have caused a great deal of confusion. I’d also ditch insurance, but that’s another thread.
 
O’Reilly put up an analysis tonight trying to argue that the pensions make up for the salary differences between public/private workers. His numbers failed, but he drew the conclusion anyway that the pensions are too large. Using his numbers, private workers still earn a ton more money over the years than public workers, pensions included.
I’m curious as to whether or not that includes the wealthy in the private sector or how do they determine the differences in say a blue collar private job and a public sector job.
 
If this is a purely budgetary issue as so-called conservatives argue and the unions accept the cut, then do it. If it’s about something other than the workers taking cuts to balance the budget, then that’s a different animal. My recommendation to the protesters is to haul a desk into the capital with a contract on it accepting all the governor’s budgetary cuts. If he won’t sign the contract that includes his suggested cuts, then begin arguing that the governor is the one not wanting to balance the budget.
It is about the budget but it is not merely about this year’s budget. If the governor is unable to remove the benefits package from collective bargaining then the state will be right back in the same fix in the future. His objective is not limited to solving the current crisis alone but in preventing the next one as well.

Ender
 
Maybe so for some. But I think collective bargaining should be limited to those who produce, and those who continue to produce by limiting union membership to those who meet a criteria of results.

As for me, and many others. Leave the “bargaining” to me. I’ve had to threaten boss’s before in many different ways, don’t think I wont do it again.
Well that’s good for people like you and i. I’m in a healthy bargaining position at my work place. But that wasn;t always the case. As a young person starting out. I was at the mercy of my employers.I was in no position to bargain. I had nothing to offer. Nothing that the next kid couldn’t.offer anyway. Luckly for me, we had collective barging. I was afforded all the benefits the older more experience workers were entitled to. Slightly less pay. But that was understandable. But without it…Well, i would hate to think…And i think unions should be open to everyone. I have had a run in with a few of my unions. Some time to the point where i drop out all together. But it would be a terrible world for the worker if there was no unions.I would even go as far as to say that unions, keep communism at bay.
 
Well, I don’t think the Catholic bishops of Wisconsin agree with you. If someone puts party loyalty above their Catholicism, then it’s a hard sell.
This is using a false authority. There is not Catholic position on the specifics of collective bargaining in specific applications. Catholicism guides our principles, it does not specify our laws.
Although Archbishop Jerome Listecki of Milwaukee and other bishops around the state have** not spoken in direct opposition to the proposed budget**, they’ve unequivocally reiterated the importance of protecting worker’s rights in light of the Church’s social doctrine.
catholicnewsagency.com/news/wisconsin-catholic-bishops-urge-protection-of-workers-rights-as-protests-surge/
“The bishops are very careful – it’s a balanced statement,” Huebscher said. “Because you support workers or the right of unions to assert and affirm their interests, (it) doesn’t follow that every claim made by workers is valid.”
I think it is a reasonable position to state that I do not believe in the validity of a position that health care without contribution is an entitlement.

I understand that the “fire em all” attitude is a violation of Catholic social teaching. However, there is still a lot of room in between that and the position of the teacher’s union. We have to balance the social teaching on labor against the teaching on ownership of property.

Yes, if someone put party loyalty above their faith, that is wrong, but sit is also wrong to accuse people of this sin without good reason. I am amazed at how often people use WWJD as if their opinion is equal to that of Jesus. Likewise, we can only call in Church authority as far as the Church actually goes, and no further.
 
Well that’s good for people like you and i. I’m in a healthy bargaining position at my work place. But that wasn;t always the case. As a young person starting out. I was at the mercy of my employers.I was in no position to bargain. I had nothing to offer. Nothing that the next kid couldn’t.offer anyway. Luckly for me, we had collective barging. I was afforded all the benefits the older more experience workers were entitled to. Slightly less pay. But that was understandable. But without it…Well, i would hate to think…And i think unions should be open to everyone. I have had a run in with a few of my unions. Some time to the point where i drop out all together. But it would be a terrible world for the worker if there was no unions.I would even go as far as to say that unions, keep communism at bay.
Lol

Yea, damn communism has nearly overrun my area. I dunno how I’ve lived without unions all my life.
 
O’Reilly put up an analysis tonight trying to argue that the pensions make up for the salary differences between public/private workers. His numbers failed, but he drew the conclusion anyway that the pensions are too large. Using his numbers, private workers still earn a ton more money over the years than public workers, pensions included.

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You must have watched a different Oreily that I did. The numbers he showed proved his point. The solution is that the Legislature will pass a law requiring them to pay a small amunt on their pensions and health care while leaving collective bargaining on wages intact.
 
Well that’s good for people like you and i. I’m in a healthy bargaining position at my work place. But that wasn;t always the case. As a young person starting out. I was at the mercy of my employers.I was in no position to bargain. I had nothing to offer. Nothing that the next kid couldn’t.offer anyway. Luckly for me, we had collective barging. I was afforded all the benefits the older more experience workers were entitled to. Slightly less pay. But that was understandable. But without it…Well, i would hate to think…And i think unions should be open to everyone. I have had a run in with a few of my unions. Some time to the point where i drop out all together. But it would be a terrible world for the worker if there was no unions.I would even go as far as to say that unions, keep communism at bay.
My experiance has been the union toss the younger workers to the wolves to ensure they keep theirs. Current UAW contracts are a perfect example.
 
If Walker really believed that evicerating the unions is a real means of reducting debt then all of them would be on the chopping block; not just the ones which opposed his candidacy. This is pure political revenge.
I know the teachers are the most vocal, but I though all public workers were being affected. Is this not so?
 
I’ll repeat my solution :
The argument put forth here that there should be bargaining for wages and not benefits is not honest. All of us go to work for one purpose: to receive compensation that will allow us and our families to survive/thrive. Normally, the compensation is money. Yet, many companies/gov’ts don’t want to go that route because it is cheaper to provide benefits as compensation instead of money. That’s basic substitution.
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The problem is these workers are drawing a pay that is as high or higher than the private employees and have nearly 4X the benefits. So there is no substitution.
 
This has not been said much, yet my hope and prayer through all this will be that many more people (especially Catholics) will turn towards private education for their children with the hope that we can extend and rebuild the Catholic school system across the country. If that happened, then this mess is well worth the pain because that would help this country enormously.
 
Getting rid of collective bargaining is a bad idea.
I agree, but that isn’t the going to happen even if the governor gets his way. What he is proposing is limiting collective bargaining to a level that 24 other states already do.
 
“Collective bargaining” is not the only way to prosper or survive in this world. Most of the workers in this country by a huge margin are not using collective bargaining and they do well. The problem with unions is this…unions are big part of failing local and state government and businesses…starting with General Motors. The failing is not just the result of fiscal irresponsibility but the lack of work standards in some cases…like teachers who are allowed to desert their students and go on a job action and committing fraud along with it. Unions are not the friend of workers…they are the enemy. PS…this includes the one I was in…😊
 
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