Thousands protest Wisconsin anti-union bill

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ChadS said:
By the end of the 40s Germany and Japan were recovering and their heavy industry was being rebuilt from the ground up. The German and Japanese steel industries chose to go with a new technology called a basic oxygen furnace. These furnaces could produce as much steel and as high of quality as the blast furnaces but with fewer men and in a shorter amount of time.
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The “with fewer men” observation is relevant: the unions have always fought layoffs caused by new technology, which tends to stymie innovation. Do you really believe that US steel companies didn’t understand the benefits of the basic oxygen furnace? Why do you think they didn’t turn to new, more efficient techniques? If poor, start-up industries in Germany and Japan could build them, why couldn’t world leading companies in the US do it?
The problems were long in coming, but they couldn’t be staved off. America relied on outdated and inefficient technology.
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They could easily have been staved off had US companies adopted the same technology the rest of the world was using. Why didn’t they? They had the money, the expertise and the incentive to do so, what prevented them? But there was more. It was bad enough that they were using less efficient processes; their labor costs were also a whole lot higher.

*The U.S. advantage lasted about two decades, during which the U.S. steel industry operated with little foreign competition. But eventually, the foreign firms were rebuilt with modern techniques such as continuous casting*, while profitable U.S. companies resisted modernization. Meanwhile, U.S. steelworkers were given rising benefits. (Wikipedia)

Resistance to modernization and increased benefits … now who does that sound like?

Ender
 
ChadS said:
You make it sound that supporting a candidate, even the losing one, gives the winner license to exact retribution upon his opponents. Would you be singing the same tune if say a union backed candidate got into office and then proceeded to strip all companies that didn’t give him money their charter to operate in the state or seized and confiscated their assets? That would be an injustice, just like it’s an injustice to treat the teachers the way they are being treated now.

ChadS
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Perhaps you haven’t read the press clippings about the man that was elected president in 2008. Banks have been seized and their assets sold to cronies - for no legal reason (WAMU). Companies siezed and their assets given to unions (GM, Chrysler).
 
Ender said:
The “with fewer men” observation is relevant: the unions have always fought layoffs caused by new technology, which tends to stymie innovation. Do you really believe that US steel companies didn’t understand the benefits of the basic oxygen furnace? Why do you think they didn’t turn to new, more efficient techniques? If poor, start-up industries in Germany and Japan could build them, why couldn’t world leading companies in the US do it?
They could easily have been staved off had US companies adopted the same technology the rest of the world was using. Why didn’t they? They had the money, the expertise and the incentive to do so, what prevented them? But there was more. It was bad enough that they were using less efficient processes; their labor costs were also a whole lot higher.

*The U.S. advantage lasted about two decades, during which the U.S. steel industry operated with little foreign competition. But eventually, the foreign firms were rebuilt with modern techniques such as continuous casting*, while profitable U.S. companies resisted modernization. Meanwhile, U.S. steelworkers were given rising benefits. (Wikipedia)

Resistance to modernization and increased benefits … now who does that sound like?

Ender
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I knew it would be impossible to have a conversation where the union didn’t simply get blamed for everybody’s woes.

Yes, in the steel industry’s case unions do get a share of the blame. They resisted implementing new work rules and changes that could’ve reduced the workforce, but at the same time the steel industry was more concerned with keeping their investors happy and they did not want an industry-wide shutdown. 1959 was the last year there was a strike in the steel industry up until the late 1980s I believe. A stretch that long for an entire industry is almost unheard of and very rare.

This article here gives a good autopsy of the problems that persisted at Bethlehem Steel. The seeds were sown in the 1950s and earlier and when they came to fruition decades later the costs were tremendous. money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2004/04/05/366339/index.htm

I think it’s worth a read. The unions don’t come out spotless, according to the article union wages between 1953 and 2004 rose around 900% while the CPI rose about 504%, but the price of steel rose only about 200%. Could the union have done more? Yes. Perhaps the company could’ve been more realistic and agressive with the unions, but i think as the article makes it clear this wouldn’t have solved everything.

ChadS
 
ChadS said:
You make it sound that supporting a candidate, even the losing one, gives the winner license to exact retribution upon his opponents.
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I didn’t say that. I said it is a possible outcome, not that it is just, even with the limitations from within the law. Your reverse scenario is not all that likely. A governor may make laws unfavorable for an industry, but he can’t nationalize it.
 
ChadS said:
You make it sound that supporting a candidate, even the losing one, gives the winner license to exact retribution upon his opponents. Would you be singing the same tune if say a union backed candidate got into office and then proceeded to strip all companies that didn’t give him money their charter to operate in the state or seized and confiscated their assets? That would be an injustice, just like it’s an injustice to treat the teachers the way they are being treated now.

ChadS
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I couldn’t agree more. It sounds like archaic thinking to me. To the victor belongs the spoils?
 
imbroglio said:
I couldn’t agree more. It sounds like archaic thinking to me. To the victor belongs the spoils?
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Seems to be the trend:

Eric Cantor went to the White house on day three of President Obama’s presidency. At the time, Obama and Democrats had total control of the White House, Senate and House. Cantor tried to share ideas with President Obama for stimulating the economy and creating jobs. When Cantor pushed for small business tax-cuts, President Obama said,

“Elections have consequences, and at the end of the day, I won.”
 
SamH said:
Seems to be the trend:

Eric Cantor went to the White house on day three of President Obama’s presidency. At the time, Obama and Democrats had total control of the White House, Senate and House. Cantor tried to share ideas with President Obama for stimulating the economy and creating jobs. When Cantor pushed for small business tax-cuts, President Obama said,

“Elections have consequences, and at the end of the day, I won.”
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We are still waiting for him to create a few jobs. He has the floor. What have they come up with?
 
pnewton said:
Again, the only poll that matters is the one at the polls.
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And if the Republicans continue to misread the 2010 election, I can’t wait for the 2012 poll! 2012 is an entirely different electorate than came out in a 2010 midterm. Obama’s base was not energized in 2010. I voted but just because I always vote in any election. 🤷 I did not have my usual enthusiasm though considering no public option and some other things. However nothing might energize and unite the liberal, center left, and center for 2012 more than the Republicans of 2011. 👍 I can see such a trend already beginning to build in WI and spreading across the country and it’s only 2 mos since the results of 2010 have been in power. And Republicans still have many mos to continue their assault on the poor and on the middle class, teachers, firefighters, and the like.
 
CMatt25 said:
And if the Republicans continue to misread the 2010 election, I can’t wait for the 2012 poll! 2012 is an entirely different electorate than came out in a 2010 midterm. Obama’s base was not energized in 2010. I voted but just because I always vote in any election. 🤷 I did not have my usual enthusiasm though considering no public option and some other things. However nothing might energize and unite the liberal, center left, and center for 2012 more than the Republicans of 2011. 👍 I can see such a trend already beginning to build in WI and spreading across the country and it’s only 2 mos since the results of 2010 have been in power. And Republicans still have many mos to continue their assault on the poor and on the middle class, teachers, firefighters, and the like.
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I too hope Liberals get energized The more people see them in action the more people recoil in horror at what they stand for.
 
CMatt25 said:
And if the Republicans continue to misread the 2010 election, I can’t wait for the 2012 poll! 2012 is an entirely different electorate than came out in a 2010 midterm. Obama’s base was not energized in 2010. I voted but just because I always vote in any election. 🤷 I did not have my usual enthusiasm though considering no public option and some other things. However nothing might energize and unite the liberal, center left, and center for 2012 more than the Republicans of 2011. 👍 I can see such a trend already beginning to build in WI and spreading across the country and it’s only 2 mos since the results of 2010 have been in power. And Republicans still have many mos to continue their assault on the poor and on the middle class, teachers, firefighters, and the like.
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What will the Democrats campaign on?

“a free high-speed rail pass and an umemployment check in every mailbox”

Ishii
 
estesbob said:
I too hope Liberals get energized The more people see them in action the more people recoil in horror at what they stand for.
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Estesbob you seem to forget what happened in 2006 with more liberal energy than 2010 but more importantly what happened in 2008 since 2012 is another POTUS yr.
 
estesbob said:
I too hope Liberals get energized The more people see them in action the more people recoil in horror at what they stand for.
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Agree on the first sentence. But, I thought the second more applicable to the GOP.

But, that’s just a difference of opinion. 🙂
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
Agree on the first sentence. But, I thought the second more applicable to the GOP.

But, that’s just a difference of opinion. 🙂
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A pox on both their houses. They will both spend us into the economic grave proudly proclaiming the rightness of their causes…right up until all the checks bounce. Then it will be a very different America.
 
CMatt25 said:
Estesbob you seem to forget what happened in 2006 with more liberal energy than 2010 but more importantly what happened in 2008 since 2012 is another POTUS yr.
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By 2010 people saw the chaos that resulted by turning the govt over to a liberal congress and an inept President. They wont make the same mistake in 2012 . Again I sinecely hope that Liberals continue to whine about being asked to pay part of their health care and pension and run and hide whenever there is a tough decision to be voted on. I see a perfect strom of discontent towards Liberalism welling up in this country-I can not wait unitl 2012.
 
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