Three Positive Signs for Obama's Re-Election Chances

  • Thread starter Thread starter irishpatrick
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
estesbob said:
3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Pope Benedcit XVI

*“No, you can never vote for someone who favors absolutely what’s called the ‘right to choice’ of a woman to destroy human life in her womb, or the right to a procured abortion,” he said.

“You may in some circumstances where you don’t have any candidate who is proposing to eliminate all abortion, choose the candidate who will most limit this grave evil in our country, but you could never justify voting for a candidate who not only does not want to limit abortion but believes that it should be available to everyone,” he said.*

Cardinal Raymond Burke
Click to expand...
Which quote is the Pope’s and which is Cardinal Burke’s? In any event, I’m quite sure the present president has expressed the view that abortion should be available as a choice and has also expressed the view that he would like to see less of it. Therefore, he does not fit the two conditions for candidates I am instructed that I “could never justify voting for”.

Besides, commonsense dictates that candidate’s carefully rehearsed words regarding abortion are to be compared to their actions and the logical effects of their proposed policies. When that is done, in my mind at least, the difference between the candidates on the issue of abortion, fades to “insufficient to quantify”.
 
seekerz said:
Which quote is the Pope’s and which is Cardinal Burke’s? In any event, I’m quite sure the present president has expressed the view that abortion should be available as a choice and has also expressed the view that he would like to see less of it. Therefore, he does not fit the two conditions for candidates I am instructed that I “could never justify voting for”.

Besides, commonsense dictates that candidate’s carefully rehearsed words regarding abortion are to be compared to their actions and the logical effects of their proposed policies. When that is done, in my mind at least, the difference between the candidates on the issue of abortion, fades to “insufficient to quantify”.
Click to expand...
The idea that there is no difference between the Parties on abortion or between Obama and any of the current GOP canidates is specious. It is the kind of moral gymansitcs that truly is (as Archbishop Chaput states) worhty of an Olympic gold medal.
 
estesbob said:
[1785](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/1785.htm’)😉 In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path,54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, *aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.55 ***

III. TO CHOOSE IN ACCORD WITH CONSCIENCE
1786 Faced with a moral choice, conscience can make either a right judgment in accordance with reason and the divine law or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.

[1787](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/1787.htm’)😉 Man is sometimes confronted by situations that make moral judgments less assured and decision difficult. But he must always seriously seek what is right and good and discern the will of God expressed in divine law.

[1788](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/1788.htm’)😉 To this purpose, man strives to interpret the data of experience and the signs of the times assisted by the virtue of prudence, by the advice of competent people, and by the help of the Holy Spirit and his gifts.

1789 Some rules apply in every case:
  • One may never do evil so that good may result from it; - the Golden Rule: "Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them."56
Click to expand...
And your bolded quote adds what to my post? The Church gives authoritative guidance - it does not dictate to us who to vote for and not amount of quoting on your part can change that.
 
estesbob said:
The idea that there is no difference between the Parties on abortion or between Obama and any of the current GOP canidates is specious. It is the kind of moral gymansitcs that truly is (as Archbishop Chaput states) worhty of an Olympic gold medal.
Click to expand...
Seriously, I need to take a break…to do a search on the keywords " moral gymnastics". That post has been repeated a hundred different ways, I’m sure. You’re welcome to your opinions and interpretations, why does it bother you that I am free to have mine?
 
seekerz said:
And your bolded quote adds what to my post? The Church gives authoritative guidance - it does not dictate to us who to vote for and not amount of quoting on your part can change that.
Click to expand...
I think most can tell the differrence between those of us who back up our posts with authorative cites and those who’s only response is to tell us it either doesnt apply to them or tells us what the Church “really” meant. There is no real dispute among those who have researched Church teaching. A Catholic can not vote for a canidate who supports abortion. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either ignorant of church teaching or being deliberately obtuse.
 
seekerz said:
Seriously, I need to take a break…to do a search on the keywords " moral gymnastics". That post has been repeated a hundred different ways, I’m sure. You’re welcome to your opinions and interpretations, why does it bother you that I am free to have mine?
Click to expand...
Here Ill save you the time:

*Yet for thirty-five years I’ve watched prominent “pro-choice” Catholics justify themselves with the kind of moral and verbal gymnastics that should qualify as an Olympic event. All they’ve really done is capitulate to Roe v. Wade.
*Read more: blog.beliefnet.com/pontifications/2008/08/while-cardinal-george-the-pres.html#ixzz1jI8Y1Zp6

Archbishop Charles Chaput
 
estesbob said:
I think most can tell the differrence between those of us who back up our posts with authorative cites and those who’s only response is to tell us it either doesnt apply to them or tells us what the Church “really” meant. There is no real dispute among those who have researched Church teaching. A Catholic can not vote for a canidate who supports abortion. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either ignorant of church teaching or being deliberately obtuse.
Click to expand...
Yes, a Catholic can vote for a candidate who supports abortion if the other candidates also support abortion. I know from personal experience that abortion cannot be ended by legal means whether a candidate is willing to do it or not, and I also know that the party which promises to make it illegal also proposes policies which will increase one major cause of abortion. The net effect, in my calculations - which you obviously, are not obliged to endorse - is no difference in their support of abortion.

You are free to disagree, you are not free to impugn my faith - ever.
 
seekerz said:
Yes, a Catholic can vote for a candidate who supports abortion if the other candidates also support abortion. I know from personal experience that abortion cannot be ended by legal means whether a candidate is willing to do it or not, and I also know that the party which promises to make it illegal also proposes policies which will increase one major cause of abortion. The net effect, in my calculations - which you obviously, are not obliged to endorse - is no difference in their support of abortion.

You are free to disagree, you are not free to impugn my faith - ever.
Click to expand...
The Church disagree with you. That’s not impugning your Faith- merely stating the facts. If you have something from the. Hutch backing up your opinion please post it. P
 
rlg94086 said:
As you do, please open your heart and truly look at Church teaching on abortion without letting your politics cloud your understanding.
Click to expand...
In my teens, before I even understood what the two parties stood for, I taught others of the ills of abortion. My heart is as open as it’s ever going to be. Catholics far greater than I over the years, have understood that people of faith can disagree on matters of importance without being evil or sinful - I don’t find that fact hard to grasp, do you?
 
estesbob said:
The Church disagree with you. That’s not impugning your Faith- merely stating the facts. If you have something from the. Hutch backing up your opinion please post it. P
Click to expand...
Unless you are the Church, then you are incorrect.
 
seekerz said:
In my teens, before I even understood what the two parties stood for, I taught others of the ills of abortion. My heart is as open as it’s ever going to be. Catholics far greater than I over the years, have understood that people of faith can disagree on matters of importance without being evil or sinful - I don’t find that fact hard to grasp, do you?
Click to expand...
We can’t disagree on abortion…according to the Church. I don’t find that fact hard to grasp, do you?
 
seekerz said:
Yes, a Catholic can vote for a candidate who supports abortion if the other candidates also support abortion. I know from personal experience that abortion cannot be ended by legal means whether a candidate is willing to do it or not, and I also know that the party which promises to make it illegal also proposes policies which will increase one major cause of abortion. The net effect, in my calculations - which you obviously, are not obliged to endorse - is no difference in their support of abortion.

You are free to disagree, you are not free to impugn my faith - ever.
Click to expand...
But we are free to (in charity) point out where you are not following your faith. 2 proaborts, then you can probably choose the best on other issues (2 proaborts is pretty rare, though–even out here).

There is no instance when you can vote for a proabort over a prolifer. If you can not make yourself vote for the prolifer, then you must choose not to vote at all (although I do believe that in most cases this would be abrogating your Catholic responsibility by doing so).
 
estesbob said:
The Church disagree with you.
Click to expand...
A few cardinals, bishops, and priests may disagree with him but that does not mean that “the Church” disagrees. Other members of the clergy do not. Its been pointed out numerous times by members of this forum, including you, that the stated opinions of the clergy no matter their rank are not binding doctrine. The official position of the Church in regards to voting is that it has no official position. Archbishop Charles Chaput is not the Magisterium.
 
Goodnight brethren in Christ.

I believe Obama will win the next election, if only because those who consider themselves superior in the faith department, have failed to back up that conviction with real love for ‘the least of these’. Sometimes, we get so caught in our roles, that we forget to act, thinking mistakenly that the costumes and the set are sufficient. I also believe that God has a calling for the president as He has for all of us. May he find it and may he take heed.

God can use anybody He chooses, for whatever reason He sees fit. We don’t call the shots, He does.
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
A few cardinals, bishops, and priests may disagree with him but that does not mean that “the Church” disagrees. Other members of the clergy do not. Its been pointed out numerous times by members of this forum, including you, that the stated opinions of the clergy no matter their rank are not binding doctrine. The official position of the Church in regards to voting is that it has no official position.
Click to expand...
If you have some cites from the Church or members of the Magestruim to back up your assertions please do so . I have
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
A few cardinals, bishops, and priests may disagree with him but that does not mean that “the Church” disagrees. Other members of the clergy do not. Its been pointed out numerous times by members of this forum, including you, that the stated opinions of the clergy no matter their rank are not binding doctrine. The official position of the Church in regards to voting is that it has no official position.
Click to expand...
As you are an expert on the official position of the Church on abortion when voting, please feel free to share something from an encyclical, the Catechism, a Pope, Cardinal or Bishop to support your view. Estesbob has, and he’s challenged others who hold your position. No one seems able…why would that be?
 
Luigi_Daniele said:
But we are free to (in charity) point out where you are not following your faith. 2 proaborts, then you can probably choose the best on other issues (2 proaborts is pretty rare, though–even out here).

There is no instance when you can vote for a proabort over a prolifer. If you can not make yourself vote for the prolifer, then you must choose not to vote at all (although I do believe that in most cases this would be abrogating your Catholic responsibility by doing so).
Click to expand...
That, dear friend, is not your call to make. You have no authority to supersede the Church in this regard. The Church admonishes us to not neglect our duty to vote. If you have some updated information, feel free to share it.
 
seekerz said:
Goodnight brethren in Christ.

I believe Obama will win the next election, if only because those who consider themselves superior in the faith department, have failed to back up that conviction with real love for ‘the least of these’. Sometimes, we get so caught in our roles, that we forget to act, thinking mistakenly that the costumes and the set are sufficient. I also believe that God has a calling for the president as He has for all of us. May he find it and may he take heed.

God can use anybody He chooses, for whatever reason He sees fit. We don’t call the shots, He does.
Click to expand...
I believe Obama may win the next election, if only because those who consider themselves superior in the faith department, have failed to back up that conviction and support, instead, the choice of people to kill “the least of these.”

I sincerely hope he doesn’t.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top