Ticket to Heaven

[Pax]

Socrates4Jesus:

Pax:

(3) “…those who are being consecrated” describes the only reaction a person in his right mind should have to the realization of what Jesus did for him.

One might say that God’s grace (or undeserved love) is the cause of (1), & (1) is the cause of our getting into heaven, & (2) is the result of that cause, & (1) & (2) also cause (3)…

There is nothing in the this verse, or in its context, or elsewhere in scripture that expresses your explanation and understanding of “…those who are being consecrated.” The clear meaning of the text seems to be talking about the process of justification and sanctification. It is consistent with the verses mentioned in my previous post concerning justification in the present tense, past tense, and future tense. Scripture speaks of sanctification in these three tenses as well. In fact Paul uses the terms sanctification and justification interchangeably which I believe has been pointed out in an earlier post.

 

[LourdesladyN]

Socrates4Jesus:

i think the ultimate act of hatred toward people is to say, “I know i’m heaven bound; to hell with everyone else!” I must admit that there have been times when i have committed such a sin–not as an act of commission, but as one of omission. Then there are those times when i’m overwhelmed by John’s words to us in Revelation that Jesus himself will wipe away every tear from your eyes & mine. I wonder how many of those tears i cry when i see Him face-to-face will be for those whom i repelled, rather than reached, with the message of God’s free gift of eternal life.

**“Well Done, Good and Faithful Servant.”

Be in God’s Peace,**

 

[bernied]

deb1024:

Bernied,

If what you are saying is true, I need to know. Please explain. Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

If this means that we are saved from all our sins, including those we will commit in the future. We can not turn away from our relationship with Christ through sin and lose heaven, no need of purgatory. Then please explain;

**Ephesians 5 **3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person–such a man is an idolater–has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.1] 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

These verses were written to the same Christians in the same letter from Paul.

I need to understand.

Thanks,
Deb

Why are you concerned about future sins? Are you looking for some kind of “fire insurance?” I think we need to live our faith on a daily basis. When you receive Christ, you are born-again and become a child of God. As a child, you need to grow towards maturity. You will have a sin of cycle and repentence as you grow upwards in holiness. You will never be perfect this side of heaven, as only God is perfect and all holy, but you will be getting more “Christ-like” over time, if it’s your desire to follow and seek God.

You may think there’s a need for Pergatory, but then the whole thing is unnecessary if you get a plenary indulgence… If Catholics really believed in their religion, why don’t they practice (and teach) Indulgences? It seems like the majority of catholics think Indulgences have been dropped from church teaching and practices.

I don’t understand your question about Eph.5 ; can you be more specific? Yes, we are to live godly lives, as it says… It is telling us how to live as believers!

…Bernie (former Catholic)
www.FreeGoodNews.com

 

[bernied]

LourdesladyN:

My dearest Bernie,
Which anathema from Trent specifically applies to you? I have posted the link below…could you tell me which Canon exactly you are referring to?

Any of these?–This is one Canon of Trent on Anathema–**ON JUSTIFICATION **

history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/trentall.html

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema. CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

[Page 45] CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man’s free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

Are these the anathema’s that apply to you? :tsktsk:

Holy Cow! Is your canon 9 even written in English? It looks impossible to read and understand. It’s been awhile since I’ve looked into it, but I just found this on a website (to answer your question, it’s Canon 9; contrary to it, I’m saved by faith alone, not by works). From carm.org/catholic/trent.htm :

CANON 9: “If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.” carm.org/catholic/trent.htmhttp://www.carm.org/catholic/trent.htm
…Bernie (former Catholic)
www.FreeGoodNews.com

 

[bernied]

bernied

I think good works are an outcome and responsibility of receiving the gift (and what we were created to do), but in no way earns it. Doesn’t this verse explain it (among many others, such as John 1:12)?

Can man that has never been baptized and that is living in a state of original sin ever do a good work? Sure he can, non-Christians can be kind and act charitably towards their neighbors. Jesus told the parable of the good Samaritan to make a point that the Jews had a hard time accepting.

But are the works we do, Christian or non-Christian, earning us our salvation? No. The reward of heaven is a gift that we can never merit by our own works.

I think you’re wrong; I think Catholic theology says you can merit your own salvation. Ever hear of the “Treasury of merit” in Catholicism? Do you know about Indulgences (a way to make a withdrawl on the treasury of merit)? See:

demo.lutherproductions.com/historytutor/basic/medieval/genknow/indulgences.htm

and

demo.lutherproductions.com/historytutor/basic/medieval/genknow/merit.htm

…Bernie (former catholic)
www.FreeGoodNews.com

 

[Matt16_18]

Bernied

I think you’re wrong; I think Catholic theology says you can merit your own salvation.

The Catholic Church teaches no such thing. If you are really interested in understanding the Church’s teaching about merit, this is a good place to begin: Merit

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Hey,

The invitation is still open to anyone else who would like to discuss this topic via e-mail (as i currently don’t have the time to devote to daily posts on this thread).

My e-mail address:

socrates4jesus@yahoo.com

I’m interested in learning more about the Catholic teaching on the way to heaven. I’d be glad to hear what anybody has to say on any topic related to getting into heaven (the conversation would not have to focus on the book of Hebrews).

God bless,
Christopher

 

[dalonia]

tee_eff_em:

More seriously: As a married man, I’ve often called my wife my Ticket To Heaven.

If I can learn to love the right way by loving her, I get to go to heaven. Woo-hoo! (It’s a little oversimplified, but still I think correct)

awww- that is SO SWEET!

I can only hope and pray
that someday a very special man
will truly feel that way towards moi…

Dalonia

 

[asquared]

Read Matthew’s gospel on the judgement of the nations.

 

[seeker63]

When I was 9 I heard on a Protestant radio station that it didn’t matter if I believed IN Christ—I had to believe ON Christ in order to be saved. That little semantical song and dance had me in agony and confusion for years.

 

[Matt16_18]

Socrates4Jesus:

… i currently don’t have the time to devote to daily posts on this thread

I see that you are back again and posting to the Catholic Answers forums. Welcome back.

Let us begin again where you left off, instead of replowing the same old ground in a new thread.

 

[_MM]

Pax:

RIC,

You forgot to mention:

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

ACTS 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

MATTHEW 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

JOHN 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

MARK 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

ROMANS 6: 3-4
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

GALATIANS 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

COLOSSIANS 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead

EPHESIANS 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

TITUS 3:4-8
but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,

1 PETER 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

These are all great points. ANswer me this tho please?

1. WHich above or ANY scripture in the NT advises us to see a preist?
2. Which scripture says you must goto this church?
3. Which scripture points to Peter as the way? Mary? Paul even?
4. What scripture advises us we must seek out a man in a chair, for he will lead us to Christ?

Seems to me Jesus does it all, in all, for all who seek Him. So the grounds or belief that any one denom or religion is the way, is Edited by Moderator as a conduct rule 7 violation. The Mormons say it, The RCC syas it, The Jehovah Wit say it. Are they all right, or was Jesus correct when He clearly stated, “I am the way, the truth, and the life”.

 

[E.E.N.S]

~MM:

These are all great points. ANswer me this tho please?

1. WHich above or ANY scripture in the NT advises us to see a preist?
2. Which scripture says you must goto this church?
3. Which scripture points to Peter as the way? Mary? Paul even?
4. What scripture advises us we must seek out a man in a chair, for he will lead us to Christ?

1. John 20:23 - Jesus says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

More here: scripturecatholic.com/confession.html

1. I am not quite sure what youmean by “this” church, but maybe you mean “what” church? Well, Scripture reveals “this” Church to be the one Jesus Christ built upon the rock of Saint Peter (Matt. 16:18). By giving Peter the keys of authority (Matt. 16:19), Jesus appointed Peter as the chief steward over His earthly kingdom (cf. Isaiah. 22:19-22). Jesus also charged Peter to be the source of strength for the rest of the apostles (Luke 22:32) and the earthly shepherd of Jesus’ flock (John 21:15-17). Jesus further gave Peter, and the apostles and elders in union with him, the power to bind and loose in heaven what they bound and loosed on earth. (Matt. 16:19; 18:18). This teaching authority did not die with Peter and the apostles, but was transferred to future bishops through the laying on of hands (e.g., Acts 1:20; 6:6; 13:3; 8:18; 9:17; 1 Tim. 4:14; 5:22; 2 Tim. 1:6).

More: scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html

1. Catholics do not point to Peter as “The Way.” Christ is the Way.
2. Jesus Himself tells us to be obedient to those who sit in the seat of authority. (ref. the “Seat of Moses” in Matt 23: 1-3)

I challenge you to try these “Top Ten” scripturecatholic.com/my_top_ten.html

 

[_MM]

1. Authority:
   I agree, authority was given Peter, not because of who he was, but because of what he KNEW. He alone was the only one with the revelation of WHO Jesus really was. Which was a few passages before the one you list. Peter was in no wise gifted, special, nor sacred. What he was, was blessed and annointed by the Holy Spirit, lest he would have no knowledge of who Jesus was.
   As far as any title given or assigned to Peter by man, matters little, if at all. The word “church” here implies to the body of Believers in Christ, referred to as “The Body of Christ” If you require reference here, I can provide it.
   No, hell or anything else will never prevail against the church of God, headed by Jesus. It is a common misplacement between religions on WHY precisely Peter was given the name. It is clearly stated tho, that Peter alone confesses that Jesus is the Christ; the Messiah, no one else. This is why Peter was chosen, because of divine revelation. Peter as we know however was not as the RCC like to say, “infalliable”, because in Mt 16:23, Jesus calls Peter satan as well, yet Catholics rarely refer to him as satan. There was the time when Peter denied Christ, but in Peter’s shoes, I would have too, so it proves Peter was a mere man, touched of God. The rock or Foundation of the church is the knowledge of Jesus Christ, not Peter, for that would be a church built on sinking sands.

 

[_MM]

As far as what you are saying here, the Bible did not yet exist as we know it, heck, Paul was still writing most of it then, so he would make to reference to it. The RCC knows the Bible did not exist till after 300AD.
As far as it goes, moral, faith, and salvation floews from the Godhead, not the church. The church is the bride of CHrist, not the Groom of Christ. Christ tealls the church waht to do, and the church it to submit herself to Him. The “living” Word is Christ and the Holy Spirit. Not traditions of men. You confuse the two.

In fact, it is because the Church is the foundation of truth that we believe in the Bible. This is because the Catholic Church put the Bible together by determining which books were inspired and which books were not. The Church completed its selection of the “canon of Scripture” at the end of the fourth century. If the Catholic Church were not the pinnacle and bulwark of the truth, our belief in the Bible would be without foundation.

THIS is precisely why people leave the piuos RCC. God alone is truth, for if it were from man, it would be a llie…I am sure you know that scripture. God decided long ago what is Biblical, and what was not. The RCC and KJV differ little, except for a few books. If you would like at some point to discuss biblical boolk, or canon differences, we can have another thread for that. The other issue I have is this…repeat after me…GOD…DOES NOT…need me! (again) GOD…DOES NOT…need me! (very good) God needs no one for anything. He “choses” to use us. Its not like He could not do it on His own. He made the world w/o the RCC…I think he can handle writing His own book w/o you too. The IMPRESSIVE thing about the Bible is this, 66 books, many writers, thousands of years, and it all agrees with itself. THAT is impresive. As far as “sola” scriptura, I don’t hold to it. I believe, Bible+Holy Spirit= Truth and knowledge. You may argue than how do I know what I am being told is God, or the devil. Line upon line, precept upon precept,. for study, reproof…etc…
As far as yyour reference to the Tim3:15, try this:
15But if I should delay, that you may know how you ought to behave in the house of God(the church bodily, for God does not dwell in a building), which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
In Enlish grammer, the adjective point to the last noun, in this case; God. The Bible refers to God MANY imes as the pillar of truth and foundation of truth, for God is truth. So it is NEVER in the church we trust, but in God alone.

 

[_MM]

Tradition
“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”
The word "למדתם " has been translated tradition or teaching. Tradition by definition is something you are taught. So, we will use the word…teachings.

As we have discussed, Protestants believe that Christians are to follow the Scriptures alone as their sole source of Christian truth (sola Scriptura). But then why does Saint Paul tell us to follow both the Scriptures and the oral word? Isn’t Paul adding something else to follow in addition to the Bible? Yes he is, because the doctrine of sola Scriptura is an erroneous doctrine.

Again, you err bc the Bible was not yet in existance, He was still writing it. How will he tell others to reference a book that will not yet be a book for several centuries.
So, no Bible, the apostles were still alive, hence the books were written based on the “words” of the apostles, so following the "spoken word was vital, it was all there was. Just as Job, Moses, Abraham, and others did for centuries.
I agree with this part…partly. Why? Because YOU say the RCC is the one, I say it is the Body of Christ, headed by Jesus. This church transcends all races, sexes, socialist climates, boundries, and walks of life. You claim is no different than the one Josepph Smith made in regards to Mormons. HOWEVER, you use the cliche’, “we’ve been here longer”. No you have not. The Jews were here longer than you. Truth be told, the Jews have everything right except Jesus. The Christian have Jesus right. Now to put the 2 together. No, I am NOT a messianic Jew. I am not even Jewish. I am however a believer in God the Father, and the Godhead, not the trinity, as in 3 “seperate” persons. The Nicene Creed was VERY clear on this matter, God from God, Light from Light…
The other issue is YOU have been told and believed the RCC is the one & true. I submit the RCC Edited out by moderator as a conduct rule violation Pretty persuasive if you study the history. So you tell people long enough and often enough, they believe. You follow the church of Rome, I will follow Christ.

 

[_MM]

Baptism
Psalms 80:3:
Turn us again, O God, and cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.
Psalms 80:7:
Turn us again, O God of hosts, and cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.
Psalms 80:19:
Turn us again, O LORD God of hosts, cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.
Psalms 106:8:
Nevertheless he saved them for his name’ sake, that he might make his mighty power to be known.
Isaiah 45:22:
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
27Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 28And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. " 29"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my names sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Matthew 24:13:
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. "
Mark 16:16:
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. "
John 3:17:
“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
Acts4:10
10Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I could go on, but lets go back to JUST the Apostles for now:

Acts 2:37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

So baptism did not save them, but they were promised the Holy Sprirt.

OK, Peter does not agree with you, lets try Paul or Silas:

Acts 16: 29Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 33And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway

So it was

1. Believe
2. Be Saved
3. Batpized.

Nope, your theory is not confirmed in the Scriptures. .

 

[_MM]

Confession:
1John 1:9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
But if with a penitent and believing heart, we confess our sins, he is faithful - Because he had promised this blessing, by the unanimous voice of all his prophets. Just - Surely then he will punish: no; for this very reason he will pardon. This may seem strange; but upon the evangelical principle of atonement and redemption, it is undoubtedly true; because, when the debt is paid, or the purchase made, it is the part of equity to cancel the bond, and consign over the purchased possession. Both to forgive us our sins - To take away all the guilt of them. And to cleanse us from all unrighteousness - To purify our souls from every kind and every degree of it.

sins were also confessed to John The Baptist. We’re to confess our sins one to another. This is why the Bible says is we have sinned against out brother, we are to go to him[the brother offended] and set it right, then come back to the altar.

John 20:21Then said Jesus to them again, "Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. " 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost: " 23"Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Jesus says here:

1. Peace, for my Father sent Me,
2. Now I send you
3. They were with the Holy Spirit
4. They were told that whoevers sins you forgive, I forgive them/ whoever is not forgiven, has not been forgiven.
   This was taught to Timothy, and so on down the line to all who possessed the Holy Spirit to go and forgive those who sin, and to preach them the Gospel!

 

[E.E.N.S]

~MM:

As far as any title given or assigned to Peter by man, matters little, if at all.

Don’t forget Simon was given the name/title Peter (Kepha/Cephas/Petros/Rock) by Christ Himself. Name changes were rare and significant.
~MM:

The word “church” here implies to the body of Believers in Christ, referred to as “The Body of Christ” If you require reference here, I can provide it.

Yes, but not limited to this understanding. If by this deduction one could be lead to believe that anyone who “believes” in Jesus is automatically saved. And we know this to be false for Paul himself says otherwise (as does James, etc.)
~MM:

Peter as we know however was not as the RCC like to say, “infalliable”, because in Mt 16:23, Jesus calls Peter satan as well, yet Catholics rarely refer to him as satan.

This just goes to show that you don’t understand infallibility. What you are describing is impeccability, and no one claims that the Pope is impeccable, after all, he is human.
~MM:

The rock or Foundation of the church is the knowledge of Jesus Christ, not Peter, for that would be a church built on sinking sands.

It is both, as just about every early Christian believed and taught, and as the Church still teaches today.