C
Charles
Guest
Haven’t I been giving you my opinion for the last two days?
- Status
M
Matt16_18
Guest
Socrates4u
*"…we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all…because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (chapter 10, verses 10 & 14)
What does HE say is the cause of you or i being perfect forever?*
I don’t know what translation you are using, but let us look at how the RSV translates the two verses that you are quoting:
And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb. 10:10
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
Heb. 10:14
The author of Hebrews has a teaching that complements that of Paul to the Romans:
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:3-4
The offering of the body of Jesus is an eternal sacrifice that was offered once for all sins - the sins of men in the past, the sins of men of today, and the sins of men that will be committed in the future. The author of Hebrews teaches that those who are sanctified have received the grace of sanctification though “the offering of the body of Jesus Christ”. Paul is saying that we receive the grace of sanctificatin through the Sacrament of Baptism, which is an immersion into Christ’s death and resurrection. The teachings complement each other.
But what about the man that returns to a life of willful sinning after he is baptized? Can he presume, “Once Saved, Always Saved”?
(More …)
*"…we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all…because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (chapter 10, verses 10 & 14)
What does HE say is the cause of you or i being perfect forever?*
I don’t know what translation you are using, but let us look at how the RSV translates the two verses that you are quoting:
And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb. 10:10
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
Heb. 10:14
The author of Hebrews has a teaching that complements that of Paul to the Romans:
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:3-4
The offering of the body of Jesus is an eternal sacrifice that was offered once for all sins - the sins of men in the past, the sins of men of today, and the sins of men that will be committed in the future. The author of Hebrews teaches that those who are sanctified have received the grace of sanctification though “the offering of the body of Jesus Christ”. Paul is saying that we receive the grace of sanctificatin through the Sacrament of Baptism, which is an immersion into Christ’s death and resurrection. The teachings complement each other.
But what about the man that returns to a life of willful sinning after he is baptized? Can he presume, “Once Saved, Always Saved”?
(More …)
M
Matt16_18
Guest
(continued …)
After being sanctified through the sacrifice for sin, can a man profane the blood by which he was sanctified through deliberate sin, and then turn around and presume that he will be free from judgement and damnation? The author of Hebrews explicitly rejects the OSAS heresy that teaches that unrepentant backslid Christians can profane the sacrifice for sin and not suffer the eternal fires of damnation.
… if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrews 10:26-31
The author of Hebrews is saying that those who die in a state of sanctification will live in perfect sanctification for all time. But those who were once sanctified, and have then spurned the Son of God, and outraged the Spirit of grace, will see the fury of eternal fire that consumes the adversaries of God.
After being sanctified through the sacrifice for sin, can a man profane the blood by which he was sanctified through deliberate sin, and then turn around and presume that he will be free from judgement and damnation? The author of Hebrews explicitly rejects the OSAS heresy that teaches that unrepentant backslid Christians can profane the sacrifice for sin and not suffer the eternal fires of damnation.
… if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrews 10:26-31
The author of Hebrews is saying that those who die in a state of sanctification will live in perfect sanctification for all time. But those who were once sanctified, and have then spurned the Son of God, and outraged the Spirit of grace, will see the fury of eternal fire that consumes the adversaries of God.
L
LourdesladyN
Guest
Hello S4J,
How is your Mom? She is in my prayers.
Socrates4Jesus:
Hebrews 10:11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. **13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. **
15 First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
These verses refer directly to Jeremiah 31. Those who were being spoken to knew this Scripture in its entirety. At the end of Jeremiah 31 we are told: 38 “The days are coming,” declares the LORD , "when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the LORD . The city will never again be uprooted or demolished." **
So Hebrews is referring to the completion of the HOLY at the SECOND COMING. Though the Sacrifice of Christ is completed in “human time” (it happened on a specific day and a specific hour) Christ rose from the dead, ascended into heaven and He sits at the Right Hand of God…the holy will BE MADE perfect (completed at final judgment) when (as it says in Hebrews 10:13) all His enemies are made footstools. The ability of this completion of perfection comes through Christ’s Sacrifice alone but as you continue to read you see we must be part of the New Covenant. If at final judgment we were not a Covenantal People----------then we are not the Holy being described. How to be the covenantal people may be your question.
I could go on, but if you continue to read Hebrews 10 in the Jewish understanding of Jeremiah 31 (notice the reference to Baptism) you will see that “It ain’t over…til it’s over”!**
Be in God’s Peace,
How is your Mom? She is in my prayers.
Thank you so much for bringing this Chapter (Hebrews 10) to the conversation! One of my Favorites! Let’s take a look see:
Hebrews 10:11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. **13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. **
15 First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
These verses refer directly to Jeremiah 31. Those who were being spoken to knew this Scripture in its entirety. At the end of Jeremiah 31 we are told: 38 “The days are coming,” declares the LORD , "when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the LORD . The city will never again be uprooted or demolished." **
So Hebrews is referring to the completion of the HOLY at the SECOND COMING. Though the Sacrifice of Christ is completed in “human time” (it happened on a specific day and a specific hour) Christ rose from the dead, ascended into heaven and He sits at the Right Hand of God…the holy will BE MADE perfect (completed at final judgment) when (as it says in Hebrews 10:13) all His enemies are made footstools. The ability of this completion of perfection comes through Christ’s Sacrifice alone but as you continue to read you see we must be part of the New Covenant. If at final judgment we were not a Covenantal People----------then we are not the Holy being described. How to be the covenantal people may be your question.
I could go on, but if you continue to read Hebrews 10 in the Jewish understanding of Jeremiah 31 (notice the reference to Baptism) you will see that “It ain’t over…til it’s over”!
**Be in God’s Peace,
P
Pax
Guest
I don’t think there is a conflict here. By the saving grace of Christ’s salvific work we are made perfect. Now Jesus died 2000 years ago. Were all Christians perfect simultaneously even if they weren’t born yet? Christ sacrifice is once and for all and that is why we see the image of Christ in heaven as the “Lamb that has been slain.” The application of Christ’s work is, however, done in time for each of us.
We are made perfect by grace, but I don’t see any reason why that means that I am perfect at my initial state of justification, that I am perfect every moment thereafter, and that I am made perfect for heaven once and for all with nothing in between. There simply is no compelling reason for me to understand scripture in this fashion.
D
deb1024
Guest
Great job Mat 16_18!! You took the words right out of my mouth.
Socrates4Jesus,
Please look at those verses in context. Paul is writing to Hebrew Christians who have returned to Jewish practices, they have returned to sacrificing animals. The point Saint Paul is making here, is now Christ is the final one and only sacrifice for sins. Christ has sanctified those who trust in him. There is no more need to sacrifice animals or anything else. He is not saying that those he has sanctified need not live according to Christ’s teachings because they have been sanctified regardless of the lives they live.
God Bless,
Deb
Socrates4Jesus,
Please look at those verses in context. Paul is writing to Hebrew Christians who have returned to Jewish practices, they have returned to sacrificing animals. The point Saint Paul is making here, is now Christ is the final one and only sacrifice for sins. Christ has sanctified those who trust in him. There is no more need to sacrifice animals or anything else. He is not saying that those he has sanctified need not live according to Christ’s teachings because they have been sanctified regardless of the lives they live.
God Bless,
Deb
C
Columba
Guest
Hi Christopher,
Just parusing your posts here, really good discussion.
I thought I’d put in my two cents worth here (Lump this in with all you’ve put together so far):
James Chapter 2 makes it very clear that Faith without works is dead.
The extention of that teaching in Catholic Moral Theology (ie the science of how to get to heaven and love everyone along the way) basically makes this connection: Your every action (and thought) make up the very fabric of your disposition toward God and your fellow man.
Another way of stating this is when the Bible and the Catholic Church say to “Believe”, this isn’t just a mental/spiritual activity. It involves your whole being. It requires the obedience of your will, which then dictates your actions. Your actions then, in a sense, dictate WHO you are, and where you are going (both in this life and the next).
This is the basis of the Churchs teaching on Mortal Sin: You can, by a single action (or work
) REJECT the Grace of God (the source of all this is always pride - The root of all sin).I like this example:
A man comes into a bank week after week, year after year, depositing cheques, withdrawing cash, opening mortgages…a regular, law abiding, GOOD customer.
One day, the man walks into the bank, sticks a gun in the tellers face and demands all the cash in the safe. He makes off with the money, but then quickly gets caught.
Should the man be punished? All who appeal to a sense of justice would say yes. Does all his years of doing the “right” thing mean ANYTHING in light of his last action? Not one bit (If anything, it makes it worse because he has betrayed the tellers trust).
Some…many would argue in the Christian life “Belief” can be separated from action, in other words, if I believe I am a good person, and trust in God’s mercy, I can escape the responsibility for my actions (I know you don’t believe this…I’m just framing the statement for you). But Christ, and the Church state that “You are what you do and think”. And if by what I do I REJECT Gods mercy (for we surely have the free will to do so), than I had better hope my next action is true repentance and receiving the Sacrament of Penance.
This truth of action making up our moral fabric is why works are important (sorry, inescapable) in the pursuit of heaven: They make up who we are (and in light of your discussion - our works dictate our acceptance/refusal of the grace of God).
God Bless you in your journey!
Sean
B
bernied
Guest
When I was a young child, I wished I was a female instead of a male, so if I’m cast into hell, I can cry for mercy (men don’t cry)…
…Bernie
www.FreeGoodNews.com
B
bernied
Guest
I believe that the only way to heaven is by accepting the free gift of God-- there is absolutley nothing you can do to “earn” or “merit” it, contrary to Catholic theology. I think good works are an outcome and responsibility of receiving the gift (and what we were created to do), but in no way earns it. Doesn’t this verse explain it (among many others, such as John 1:12)?
**Ephesians 2
**8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
…Bernie
www.FreeGoodNews.com
D
deb1024
Guest
bernied,
Now you just need to read those verses again in context, along with all the other verses in the New Testament.
Accept all of God’s Word, not just pick and choose and try to force the rest of God’s Word fit your favored verses.
God Bless,
Deb
Now you just need to read those verses again in context, along with all the other verses in the New Testament.
Accept all of God’s Word, not just pick and choose and try to force the rest of God’s Word fit your favored verses.
God Bless,
Deb
L
LourdesladyN
Guest
My Dearest Bernie,
Your zeal for the Gospel of Truth is evident. That is what the free gift of Grace gives us. It is amazing how you actually proclaim Catholic Theology. You just don’t realize that **YOU teach what the Church teaches. **
The fact that you KNOW the Church’s truth is also a free gift from God. He is calling you home by placing the seed of Truth in your heart. Let’s look at your statement:
bernied:
If you follow the church teaching from CCC article 1989-2029 you will see these Scripture references-Rom 3:22; cf. 6:3-4, Rom 6:8-11, 1 Cor 12; Jn 15:1-4, Mt 4:17, Rom 3:21-26, Rom 7:22; Eph 3:16, Rom 6:19,22,Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4.
47 Cf. 1 Cor 2:7-9,Jn 4:14; 7:38-39,2 Cor 5:17-18,Gen 1:31,1 Cor 12,Rom 12:6-8,Mt 7:20,Rom 8:28-30,Mt 5:48,2 Tim 4., Rev 21:2.
You have stated Catholic Teaching-------- then said it isn’t Catholic Teaching!
You see the Church is a servant to Scripture-------She cannot change the meaning because the HOLY SPIRIT protects her. Mother Church can only restate the teaching in terms that apply to today. So actually; **you are right on the money ** with your statement about salvation. I am sure you agree that ALL Scripture is inerrant and there in lies the beauty of the Church. The Church takes the ENTIRETY of Scripture and shows us HOW it is all true.
bernied:
Be In God’s Peace,
Your zeal for the Gospel of Truth is evident. That is what the free gift of Grace gives us. It is amazing how you actually proclaim Catholic Theology. You just don’t realize that **YOU teach what the Church teaches. **
The fact that you KNOW the Church’s truth is also a free gift from God. He is calling you home by placing the seed of Truth in your heart. Let’s look at your statement:
Now, lets take a look at what the Church Christ founded teaches us: scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm#1989
If you follow the church teaching from CCC article 1989-2029 you will see these Scripture references-Rom 3:22; cf. 6:3-4, Rom 6:8-11, 1 Cor 12; Jn 15:1-4, Mt 4:17, Rom 3:21-26, Rom 7:22; Eph 3:16, Rom 6:19,22,Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4.
47 Cf. 1 Cor 2:7-9,Jn 4:14; 7:38-39,2 Cor 5:17-18,Gen 1:31,1 Cor 12,Rom 12:6-8,Mt 7:20,Rom 8:28-30,Mt 5:48,2 Tim 4., Rev 21:2.
You have stated Catholic Teaching-------- then said it isn’t Catholic Teaching!
You see the Church is a servant to Scripture-------She cannot change the meaning because the HOLY SPIRIT protects her. Mother Church can only restate the teaching in terms that apply to today. So actually; **you are right on the money ** with your statement about salvation. I am sure you agree that ALL Scripture is inerrant and there in lies the beauty of the Church. The Church takes the ENTIRETY of Scripture and shows us HOW it is all true.
Amen and Amen-----------See the Scripture verses above that show how you already believe what the Bride of Christ-The Catholic Church- teaches! Keep up the Good Work!
Be In God’s Peace,
P
Peg
Guest
How do you get to heaven?
Come out of the confessional and keep turning right!!!
I am not sure if I read this some where, if so, sorry I stoled it.
Come out of the confessional and keep turning right!!!
I am not sure if I read this some where, if so, sorry I stoled it.
M
Matt16_18
Guest
bernied
I think good works are an outcome and responsibility of receiving the gift (and what we were created to do), but in no way earns it. Doesn’t this verse explain it (among many others, such as John 1:12)?
Can man that has never been baptized and that is living in a state of original sin ever do a good work? Sure he can, non-Christians can be kind and act charitably towards their neighbors. Jesus told the parable of the good Samaritan to make a point that the Jews had a hard time accepting.
But are the works we do, Christian or non-Christian, earning us our salvation? No. The reward of heaven is a gift that we can never merit by our own works.
But the question isn’t if we can earn heaven as a wage that is due to us as laborers in the Kingdom of God. The real question is, can we earn damnation as the just wage that is due for evil works done in the Kingdom of the World? If we labor for Satan, will God be just in giving us the wage that is due for that labor? Yes, God will be just in giving the damned the wages due sin - the second death.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
Becoming a Christian does NOT give the Christian the option for living an immoral life because he has “eternal security”. If a Christian backslides into unrepenant works of evil, he will receive the wage that is due his evil works.
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.
2 Pet. 2:20-22
I think good works are an outcome and responsibility of receiving the gift (and what we were created to do), but in no way earns it. Doesn’t this verse explain it (among many others, such as John 1:12)?
Can man that has never been baptized and that is living in a state of original sin ever do a good work? Sure he can, non-Christians can be kind and act charitably towards their neighbors. Jesus told the parable of the good Samaritan to make a point that the Jews had a hard time accepting.
But are the works we do, Christian or non-Christian, earning us our salvation? No. The reward of heaven is a gift that we can never merit by our own works.
But the question isn’t if we can earn heaven as a wage that is due to us as laborers in the Kingdom of God. The real question is, can we earn damnation as the just wage that is due for evil works done in the Kingdom of the World? If we labor for Satan, will God be just in giving us the wage that is due for that labor? Yes, God will be just in giving the damned the wages due sin - the second death.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
Becoming a Christian does NOT give the Christian the option for living an immoral life because he has “eternal security”. If a Christian backslides into unrepenant works of evil, he will receive the wage that is due his evil works.
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.
2 Pet. 2:20-22
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Matt16_18 said:
Matt16:
Thanks. I have been using the New International Version simply because it is the one i use when committing Scripture to memory. A Catholic version of the Bible (the New American Bible) translates Hebrews 10:14 this way:
“For by one offering he has made perfect forever those who are being consecrated.”
I believe all three versions are saying the same, that is that the perfection of the believer is a past event (not a present process). Also, i see no mention of water baptism in Hebrews chapter 10. In fact, the word baptism does not appear at all in any of the chapters of Hebrews. He is obviously discussing our salvation. Why do you think he does not mention baptism?
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
My lady
, thanks for your prayers; she is the same.I believe the writer refers to your perfection & mine as a past event (not a present process):
“For by one offering he HAS MADE perfect forever those who are being consecrated.” (Hebrews 10:14, New American Bible, emphasis added).
You might imagine yourself described in this passage:
“For by one offering [that is his crucifixion] Jesus HAS MADE perfect forever Lourdeslady. [And she is also in the process of] being consecrated.”
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Pax:
Good point. I need to get back to work, but i’ll think through your post & get back with you. Thanks for your continued patience!
P
papist1
Guest
It is really pretty simple on the surface.
Accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour and listen to His Church.
"and if he fails to hear even the Church, let him be as a heathen and a publican(tax collector) "
Christ speaks through His One Church that He built upon Cephas(rock, peter) “he who hears you hears me.”
This Church has the direct line of succession to the apostles and Christ himself, historically. This Church is the One, Holy, Universal(Catholic) and Apostolic Church.
I am a convert from anti catholic protestantism.
Accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour and listen to His Church.
Code:
This would be the Church that has the power to anathematize(ex-communicate) as seen in Matthew 18:18Christ speaks through His One Church that He built upon Cephas(rock, peter) “he who hears you hears me.”
This Church has the direct line of succession to the apostles and Christ himself, historically. This Church is the One, Holy, Universal(Catholic) and Apostolic Church.
I am a convert from anti catholic protestantism.
peace,papist
M
Matt16_18
Guest
S4U
I believe all three versions are saying the same, that is that the perfection of the believer is a past event (not a present process).
There is a sense in which scriptures speak of “perfection” as a past event, just as the justification and sanctification of the believer are spoken about in the past, present and future tenses. It is a bad assumption on your part that the perfection of the Christian is not an ongoing process. The author of Hebrews made it explicit that the Christian can end his converion process by forsaking the brethren. The author of Hebrews clearly states that a Christian that was once on the path of perfection can bring damnation upon himself by committing the sin of apostasy.
Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings …
Heb. 13:9
For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.
Heb. 6:4-6
Do you not see that the author of Hebrews is teaching that a Christian that dies as an unrepentant apostate will suffer eternal damnation?
For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food; for every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child. … Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity …
Heb. 5:12-13 & 6:1
Socrates4U, I get the impression that you have rejected the Catholic Church’s teachings concerning salvation and have fully embraced the Protestant doctrines of “Once Saved, Always Saved”, and the Protestant doctrines that teach “eternal security” and “assurance of salvation”. Am I not correct about that?
Do you believe that a Christian can die as an unrepentant apostate and still be assured of his salvation?
Do you believe that “saved” man could die in his old age as an unrepentant Satan worshipper without the fear of eternal damnation - that the Satan worshipper has nothing to worry about because he obtained “eternal security” when he once made a sincerely felt “altar call” as a young man?
I believe all three versions are saying the same, that is that the perfection of the believer is a past event (not a present process).
There is a sense in which scriptures speak of “perfection” as a past event, just as the justification and sanctification of the believer are spoken about in the past, present and future tenses. It is a bad assumption on your part that the perfection of the Christian is not an ongoing process. The author of Hebrews made it explicit that the Christian can end his converion process by forsaking the brethren. The author of Hebrews clearly states that a Christian that was once on the path of perfection can bring damnation upon himself by committing the sin of apostasy.
Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings …
Heb. 13:9
For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.
Heb. 6:4-6
Do you not see that the author of Hebrews is teaching that a Christian that dies as an unrepentant apostate will suffer eternal damnation?
- Also, i see no mention of water baptism in Hebrews chapter 10. In fact, the word baptism does not appear at all in any of the chapters of Hebrews. … Why do you think he does not mention baptism?*
For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food; for every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child. … Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity …
Heb. 5:12-13 & 6:1
Socrates4U, I get the impression that you have rejected the Catholic Church’s teachings concerning salvation and have fully embraced the Protestant doctrines of “Once Saved, Always Saved”, and the Protestant doctrines that teach “eternal security” and “assurance of salvation”. Am I not correct about that?
Do you believe that a Christian can die as an unrepentant apostate and still be assured of his salvation?
Do you believe that “saved” man could die in his old age as an unrepentant Satan worshipper without the fear of eternal damnation - that the Satan worshipper has nothing to worry about because he obtained “eternal security” when he once made a sincerely felt “altar call” as a young man?
B
bernied
Guest
Here it is:
1 John 4
7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
from: biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=1+john+4%3A7-8&version=NIV
(a very good memory verse!)
…Bernie
www.FreeGoodNews.com
D
deb1024
Guest
Socrates4Jesus,
Socrates4Jesus:
I think that we have all shared our interpretation (based on Scripture and Church Tradition) of this passage.
Now would you help me to understand where you are coming from by explaining a few scripture passages?
Start with Ephesians 5:3-6: 3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person–such a man is an idolater–has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.1] 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
May God bless you on your journey of faith,
Deb
The letter to the Hebrews was composed to Christians who were returning to the Jewish faith and animal sacrifice. In this passage he is making it clear to these Christians that Christ’s past sacrifice continues to sanctify the Christian, there is no need for any further sacrifices. As Pax so appropriately put it: “The offering of the body of Jesus is an eternal sacrifice that was offered once for all sins - the sins of men in the past, the sins of men of today, and the sins of men that will be committed in the future. …” The apostles did not always include or mention baptism or other specific doctrines when addressing a group of Christians. Does your Pastor do that when his sermon is about another subject.
I think that we have all shared our interpretation (based on Scripture and Church Tradition) of this passage.
Now would you help me to understand where you are coming from by explaining a few scripture passages?
Start with Ephesians 5:3-6: 3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person–such a man is an idolater–has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.1] 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
May God bless you on your journey of faith,
Deb
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