Ticket to Heaven

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Socrates4Jesus:
My lady 😉
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You make me blush! :o And work really hard to answer your questions!
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Socrates4Jesus:
I believe the writer refers to your perfection & mine as a past event (not a present process):

“For by one offering he HAS MADE perfect forever those who are being consecrated.” (Hebrews 10:14, New American Bible, emphasis added).
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The Present Tense is used in description of the Sacrifice of Christ--------Just as in Jeremiah we are told that the New Covenant sacrifice would suffice.

The tense of **still “BEING” ** applies to the consecrated (us). **Very Catholic by the way-------in Baptism we are consecrated Priest, Prophet and King------- :cool: **

Yet we are also told in Hebrews that we must enter the New Covenant to be part of the Sacrifice.

You will notice the word FLESH (Hebrews 10:20) is used as in John 6, which we read as the Eucharist. Otherwise the word used would have been Body.

Also in Jeremiah 31 there is a direct reference to the sin of the “golden calf” as the sin that is forgiven. This ** ALWAYS PRESENT SACRIFICE OF CHRIST ** would allow the people to enter the New Covenant just as God allowed the Old Covenant to remain (except for that nasty 40 years in the dessert episode) in Exodus.

As an aside: Isn’t it peculiar that the Old Covenant People wandered in the dessert for 40 years--------------and the Jews (even the Apostles and Paul that were Jewish) were allowed to worship in the Old Covenant way for 40 years before the Temple was destroyed. Hmmmmmmmmmm------BERRY INTERESTING!

** What does all this mean to you? What is your summation of the New Covenant? What is your take on the “consecrated” being in Process while the Sacrifice is Complete?
In God’s Peace,
**
 
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Socrates4Jesus:
Also, i see no mention of water baptism in Hebrews chapter 10. In fact, the word baptism does not appear at all in any of the chapters of Hebrews. He is obviously discussing our salvation. Why do you think he does not mention baptism?
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**The allusion to baptism can be found in ** Hebrews 10:22:
19 Therefore, brethren, since we (34) have confidence to (35) enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
20 by (36) a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through (37) the veil, that is, His flesh,
21 and since we have (38) a great priest (39) over the house of God,
22 let us (40) draw near with a sincere heart in (41) full assurance of faith, having our hearts (42) sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies (43) washed with pure water.

Acts 22:16; 1 Cor 6:11; Eph 5:26; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21

Be in the WORD 😉
 
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Pax:
I don’t think there is a conflict here. By the saving grace of Christ’s salvific work we are made perfect. Now Jesus died 2000 years ago. Were all Christians perfect simultaneously even if they weren’t born yet? Christ sacrifice is once and for all and that is why we see the image of Christ in heaven as the “Lamb that has been slain.” The application of Christ’s work is, however, done in time for each of us.

We are made perfect by grace, but I don’t see any reason why that means that I am perfect at my initial state of justification, that I am perfect every moment thereafter, and that I am made perfect for heaven once and for all with nothing in between. There simply is no compelling reason for me to understand scripture in this fashion.
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Pax:

Yes, i agree there is no logical contradiction. The two affirmations of the author of Hebrews do not contradict one another; they compliment each other. Still, i believe they are not describing the same thing–they are like apples & oranges. Please let me explain by taking a looking at Hebrews 10:14 again:

(1) “For by one offering…” describes, of course, the crucifixion of our Savior Jesus.

(2) “he has made perfect forever…” explains that Jesus’ act of dying in your place & mine is what makes us perfect.

(3) “…those who are being consecrated” describes the only reaction a person in his right mind should have to the realization of what Jesus did for him.

One might say that God’s grace (or undeserved love) is the cause of (1), & (1) is the cause of our getting into heaven, & (2) is the result of that cause, & (1) & (2) also cause (3).

That’s why (2) is described in the past tense, i believe, for once a person understands why Jesus did (1) & what that may do for himself, he turns from a life of sin (repents & confesses his wrong way of living to God) & turns to a life devoted to Him (puts faith, or trust, in Christ). This repentance & faith then results in the changed life (3).

But, please see with me if this idea matches the other passages we have discussed previously:

Ephesians 2:8-10:

“For by grace you have been saved, through faith…” (v. 8 describes 1 & 2, above). Notice that here, also, being saved from hell is in the past tense. St. Paul does not write, “by grace you are being saved” nor does he write “by grace you will be saved” rather he writes that we are already saved from hell.

“…and this is not from you, it is the gift of God; it is not from works so no one may boast…” (v. 9 describes how we are NOT saved from hell).

“For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God prepared in advance that we should live in them.” (v. 10 describes #3 above, which is the result of being already saved from hell).

CONTINUED…
 
Then consider 2 Timothy 1:9:

“He saved us…” (#2, again, in the past tense one is saved from hell).

“…and called us to a holy life…” (#3, once more, describing the result of being saved from hell.

“not according to our works…” (once more how we are NOT saved from hell).

“…but according to his own design and grace bestowed on us in Christ Jesus…” (once again, the ultimate cause of our being saved from hell & our living the holy life to which He has called you & me).

There is also Titus 3:4-5:

“But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared…” (again, the ultimate cause of our salvation & also #2).

“not because of any righteous deeds we had done…” (once more, what is NOT the cause of our salvation from hell).

“but because of his mercy, he saved us…” (finally, being saved from hell continues to be described in the past tense).

What does all this mean? I think this:

First: We HAVE BEEN SAVED from the penalty of sin & made perfect simply by repenting & putting faith in the death & resurrection of Jesus Christ, who died for you & me. Hence, eternal life is truly a free gift.

Second: We ARE BEING from the power of sin by continuing to repent & trust him day by day. God rewards us for this with what Jesus called treasures in heaven, but eternal life itself is not a reward.

Third: One day we WILL BECOME SAVED from the presence of sin when you & i see him face to face.
 
Jesus said that no one is good except God alone, yet Hebrews 10:14 claims that we are already perfect. How can this be? I think the answer is that Jesus lived the perfect life you or i could never live & offers it to us as an absolutely free gift. That is why St. Paul calls righteousness itself a free gift (Romans 5:17).

Christians are not sinless, though we do (by God’s grace) sin less & less. Practically we still sin. Positionally, we are sinless, perfect in the Father’s eyes. He looks at us not as we are, but as what Jesus is; not as we are, but as we will be. I think i am correct in this, as Jesus said:

“Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be condemned. He has crossed over from death to life.” (John 5:24, emphasis added)
 
Socrates4U

Do you believe in “Once Saved, Always Saved”?

Do you believe that there is NO sin that a Christian could commit that could cause him to be damned for all eternity?
 
Socrates4Jesus,

All the scripture passages you quote explain what happens at the moment of our salvation. We all agree that we are saved by Grace not by works. There is nothing we could possibly do to merit salvation.

Ephesians is written to faithful Christians (see verse one). They have already received salvation through grace; therefore Paul uses the past tense. This in no way guarantees that they can not lose their salvation.

Ephesians 5:3-6 is written to the same Christians. How do these verses fit into your theology?
3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person–such a man is an idolater–has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.1] 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

Deb
 
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LourdesladyN:
My Dearest Bernie,
Your zeal for the Gospel of Truth is evident. That is what the free gift of Grace gives us. It is amazing how you actually proclaim Catholic Theology. You just don’t realize that **YOU teach what the Church teaches. **😛 The fact that you KNOW the Church’s truth is also a free gift from God. He is calling you home by placing the seed of Truth in your heart.
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No, I’m an ex-Catholic. As a believer, I passed over from death into life, according to the promise of 1 John 5:12-13. Contrary to the Council of Trent which anathomizes me, I KNOW I’m going to heaven, based on what Christ has done for me, not based on my good works. I don’t need to get cleaned-up in Pergatory-- Christ already paid the penalty in my stead, and I’m presentable now to God through Christ as a child of God. :dancing:

…Bernie (former Catholic)
www.FreeGoodnews.com
 
Bernied,
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bernied:
No, I’m an ex-Catholic. As a believer, I passed over from death into life, according to the promise of 1 John 5:12-13. Contrary to the Council of Trent which anathomizes me, I KNOW I’m going to heaven, based on what Christ has done for me, not based on my good works. I don’t need to get cleaned-up in Pergatory-- Christ already paid the penalty in my stead, and I’m presentable now to God through Christ as a child of God.
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If what you are saying is true, I need to know. Please explain. **Ephesians 2
**8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

If this means that we are saved from all our sins, including those we will commit in the future. We can not turn away from our relationship with Christ through sin and lose heaven, no need of purgatory. Then please explain;

**Ephesians 5 **3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person–such a man is an idolater–has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.1] 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

These verses were written to the same Christians in the same letter from Paul.

I need to understand.

Thanks,
Deb
 
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deb1024:
If this means that we are saved from all our sins, including those we will commit in the future. We can not turn away from our relationship with Christ through sin and lose heaven, no need of purgatory. Then please explain;

Ephesians 5 3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person–such a man is an idolater–has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

I need to understand.
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Don’t hold your breath waiting for a rational explanation from an OSAS believing fundamentalist. 😉

The antinomian flavor of Protestant OSAS doctrine teaches that there is NO sin that a “saved” man could commit that would make him lose his salvation. The wages of sin is death only for the bad people that are “unsaved”. For the “saved”, the wages of sin is eternal life! :rolleyes:
 
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bernied:
Contrary to the Council of Trent which anathomizes me, I KNOW I’m going to heaven, based on what Christ has done for me, not based on my good works.EWTN.com
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My dearest Bernie,
**Which anathema from Trent specifically applies to you? I have posted the link below…could you tell me which Canon exactly you are referring to?

Any of these?**–This is one Canon of Trent on Anathema–**ON JUSTIFICATION **

history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/trentall.html

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema. CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

[Page 45] CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man’s free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

Are these the anathema’s that apply to you? :tsktsk:
 
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Matt16_18:
Don’t hold your breath waiting for a rational explanation from an OSAS believing fundamentalist. 😉
:rolleyes:
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Good Afternoon Matt! 😛

I really am enamored with Bernie! Apparently he left the Catholic Church because of what he thinks the church teaches. In reality, our dearest Bernie is extremely Catholic in his beliefs.

His latest post even confirms Trent! :cool:

Be in God’s Peace
 
Boy - you go up to the cottage for the weekend and come back to find your favorite thread has taken all kinds of interesting twists and turns! A couple of observations and comments:

Matt 16_18 : If you go back through the thread you’ll see that Socrates does not subscribe to OSAS. However, he has yet to square his apparent belief that salvation can be lost with the “once and for all” message in his recent posts.

Deb1024: Great point in you Ephesians reference!

Socrates: I have to now say that it sure looks like you really had a pre-conceived path you were going down all along with your connect-the-dot logic of: 1) following Christ’s commands to 2) the “Be Perfect” command to 3)Hebrews 10:14. A lot of us have spent significant time and effort explaining our faith believing you were on a sincere quest for truth. You know, if you’ve been bearing false witness you should go to confession! 😉

Everyone: I continue to be amazed and blessed with your knowledge and eloquence with scripture and our faith. May God’s grace continue to make us holy and righteous! (It’s so much better than being “declared” so in a heavenly feat of legal fiction.)
 
Steve:

Thanks for your comment to Matt16 & for your gentle rebuke to me. Also, i apologize for not addressing some of your questions earlier as i was strapped for time & had to choose to whom i would respond.

I really had three reasons for beginning this thread:

(1) To understand what the Catholic faith teaches is the way to heaven.

(2) To put my own belief regarding the way to get to heaven to the test.

(3) To put the Catholic belief to the test of Scripture.

I have been wrong in the past, as i explained in a previous post when i admitted that i used to think that the holy life was an option. I now know that i cannot live like the devil & still believe that i am heaven bound because repentance & faith are like two sides of the same coin. So i know that if any of my beliefs do not hold up to logical examination then they must be abandoned.

That being said, i think the ultimate act of hatred toward people is to say, “I know i’m heaven bound; to hell with everyone else!” I must admit that there have been times when i have committed such a sin–not as an act of commission, but as one of omission. Then there are those times when i’m overwhelmed by John’s words to us in Revelation that Jesus himself will wipe away every tear from your eyes & mine. I wonder how many of those tears i cry when i see Him face-to-face will be for those whom i repelled, rather than reached, with the message of God’s free gift of eternal life.

This is why i commented earlier how the posts of some in this discussion thread reminded me of the love of Christ Himself. I could see how others were trying to reach me as i have tried to reach others, like the two Mormons i described in one of my posts. If i had believed i knew the way to heaven & i failed to tell those young missionaries what i believed & why i believed it was true, i would be guilty of a great hatred toward them.

Likewise, if i find good evidence from the Bible that some essential teaching of the Catholic faith contradicts Scripture, i think it would be sin for me to not ask questions to see if this is really the case. Then, if it is the case, i believe i’m obligated to point this out. Why? because to fail to do so would be a great evil if it results in those whom i fail to warn ending up in hell. So far, no one has given an convincing explanation as to why my understanding of Hebrews 10:14 is in error.
 
I want to continue the discussion but my commitments are keeping me from devoting the time necessary to this discussion thread. However, if you (or anyone) would not mind continuing the conversation via e-mail, i would be glad to do so. It may take a few days for me to reply to any e-mail message. My e-mail address: socrates4jesus@yahoo.com

Thank you everyone for the time you devoted to the discussion.

God bless every one of you, & may you know that “Christ Jesus…is our righteousness, holiness and redemption.” (1 Corinthians 1:30)
 
Socrates4U
  • i admitted that i used to think that the holy life was an option. I now know that i cannot live like the devil & still believe that i am heaven bound because repentance & faith are like two sides of the same coin.*
That is a good start. I am glad that you don’t believe in the antinomian flavor of OSAS because that heresy teaches that Christians can indeed live immoral lives with the “assurance of salvation”. Since the scriptures do not support the idea that salvation is a ticket to sin, then what happens when a Christian backslides and does live like the devil? Does the backslid Christian living in unrepentant sin have any assurance that he will be free from the judgement of damnation? Must the backslider turn back to Christ and repents of his sins to assure his salvation?

So far, no one has given an convincing explanation as to why my understanding of Hebrews 10:14 is in error.

Funny, I was thinking more about that this morning. I see your error this way: You have misunderstood the meaning of Matt. 5:48, and you have made a faulty connection between Matt. 5:48 and Hebrews 10:14.

First, your error in Matt. 5:48. You have said that no one in “sinful human flesh” can ever live a perfect live. But you have contradicted yourself and also said that Christians can be perfect, because Jesus wouldn’t tell us to be perfect, unless that was possible. You have also asserted that in Matt 5:48, that Jesus can only be speaking about perfection in the present tense - and that is where you have made a mistake too.

Look at it this way. A young boy asks his mom if he can sleep over at his friends house. His mom says, yes, but “you must be a perfect gentleman”. The mom is using the word “be” to denote behavior that must be manifested by her son in the future.

In Matt. 5:48, Jesus says, “Therefore, you must be perfect …”. The word “therefore” should tip you off. Jesus is drawing a conclusion. If one reads Matthew 5:48 in context, then one sees that before this “therefore” conclusion of Jesus, that Jesus has been teaching Christians what perfect behavior is all about. At the beginning of Matthew chapter 5, Jesus is teaching the beatitudes, and he keeps on teaching what constitutes perfect behavior for Christians, until he ends this teaching with his “therefore” conclusion. IOW, Jesus is giving Christians concrete examples of how to be perfect - present and future tense of the word “be” is implicit in the context of Matt. 5:48.

Matt. 5:48 is the most important verse in scriptures concerning our salvation. It simply must be understood correctly in order to understand the message of the Gospel.

more …
 
The word “perfect” is not used that often in the NT. The verse that you should have grabbed onto is further on in Matthew, where Jesus again uses the words “be perfect”. That verse is in the dialog of Jesus and the rich young man. The rich young man asks Jesus essentially the same question that you asked at the ver beginning of this thread - “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” (Matt. 19:16)

Jesus’ response to this question was to keep the commandments… AND one more thing: “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." (Matt. 19:21)

Note how the rich young man can only be perfect by following Jesus. Jesus isn’t asking for a one-time response from the rich young man at an altar call, he is demanding a lifelong response from him. The rich young man needs to follow Jesus for his whole live without turning back.

“No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.”
Luke 9:62

Again, being perfect requires action from us that is in both the present and the future. Christian perfection obviously demands keeping the commandments of God. But that is not the only thing that a Christian must do to be perfect – for that is only the beginning of perfection.
 
Does any one know the Greek word from which “perfecr” is translated and its various meanings in kione greek?
 
Socrates,

This has been a great thread and I thank you for posing your questions. I am especially interested in your latter question about how we can be perfect just as our heavenly Father is perfect. I have always wondered about that particular command of Jesus myself, and have received some very helpful insight by reading this thread. I certainly don’t have anything to add to those who have already posted, but I’m having a little difficulty in your answer and was hoping you could take the time to explain.

Your answer to how we can be made perfect just as our heavenly Father is perfect is found in Hebrews Chapter 10…

"…we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all…because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (verses 10 & 14)
It seems like we cannot be as perfect as our heavenly Father unless we are as holy as our heavenly Father. Can we say that we are still lacking in holiness, but we are as perfect as our heavenly Father? That doesn’t seem quite right to me. Our heavenly Father is all-holy, and yet we see in Hebrews 10:14 that those “he has made perfect… are being made holy (present tense)”. Has our Father in heaven not reached perfect holiness?

So, if we are indeed being made holy as Hebrews 10:14 indicates, how is it that (as you have indicated) we are already perfect just as our heavenly Father is perfect?

Thanks for your help on this one. I know you have indicated you don’t have time to continue on this thread, but I would really appreciate a reply.

Joel
 
Socrates4Jesus,

You’ve spent a fair amount of time discussing salvation as a past event. There are, however, passages in scripture which talk about salvation as a present, and as a future event. You might examine 1 Cor. 1-18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12, and 1Peter 1:8-9 for the present aspects of salvation.

You can also examine Rom 13:11, Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15, Matt 24:12-14, 1 Peter 2:2-3, and 2 Thess 1:8-12 for the future aspects of salvation.

The book of Hebrews does not really support your contention that salvation is simply a past event. We see something quite explicit in this regard when we read Hebrews 10:26 where it says, “For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,” This passage, and those that follow it, indicate that the once and for all sacrifice of Jesus which makes men perfect will be denied to those that deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth.

Without repenting we would face what Hebrews 10:27-29 says is*"…a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?"*

These verses make it pretty clear that the author does not look at salvation simply as a past event. If it were then we could not face a prospect of punishment, and dying without mercy for spurning the son of God and profaning the blood of the covenant by which we are sanctified. If salvation only happened as a past event we could not suffer death without mercy for outraging the Spirit of Grace.

While the book of Hebrews is a tremendous indicator in this area of salvation so also are the other books of the NT.
 
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