Ticket to Heaven

[Socrates4Jesus]

Charles:

I’m still not willing to concede that a verse, taken away from its context is a good way to address issues of salvation. There are serious contextual issues I addressed earlier which lead me to believe that trying to pigeon hole this verse does no credit to God. Can you honestly assure me that the perfection Jesus is seeking does not refer to forgiving our enemies and those who persecute us? That it is not asking us to be merciful as God is merciful? If you can assure me of this then by whose authority?

Thanks for making that point, Charles. I believe Jesus was talking about much more than just forgiveness during the Sermon on the Mount. He also talks of adultery & divorce, taking oaths & being honest, fasting & prayer, greed & money, among other things. Also, looking up the definition of the word “perfect” in a common dictionary shows that the word has a much wider meaning than just being merciful.

That being said let us say Jesus really used the words “be merciful” instead of “be perfect” the sentence would still read: “So be merciful as your Father in heaven is merciful.” This still leaves the question:

“Are you & i as merciful as God Himself?” What do you think?

 

[Matt16_18]

Socrates4U

I think St. John disagrees: “If we say, ‘We are without sin,’ we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8)

Well, just don’t stop there, read the next verse too!

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

The Apostle John is saying the if we confess our sin, they will be forgiven and we will become cleansed of all unrighteousness. Is a body-soul that is cleansed of all unrighteousness still stained with sin? No. The Christian that has received the Sacrament of Confession with perfect contrition is a pure and holy Temple of God.

(Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”
John 20:21-23

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Matt16_18:

If Jesus told us to be perfect, then it must be possible.

I can go to confession and have all my sins forgiven - even the mortal sins that leave my temple desolate. I can go to Mass without unforgiven mortal sin on my soul and sincerely ask for forgiveness during the Confiteor (I confess to almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned …). If I am sincere in my confession of sins during the Confiteor, all my venial sins will be forgiven at that moment, and I will be a sanctified temple without spot or stain that is about to receive Jesus Christ, body, blood, soul and divinity into my temple. When God the Father looks at me after I receive the Eucharist, is he looking at what he has made perfect through the sacrifice of his Son? You bet – God the Father isn’t looking just at me, God the Father is also beholding the glory of only begotten Son!

… when a man turns to the Lord the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

2 Cor. 3:16-18

Yes, i agree it is possible (or rather He makes the impossible possible) as He said when his disciples asked Him who could be saved, “With man, this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible.”

But i’m not so sure that the good things He does through us are the means by which it is possible. Is it God’s grace (or undeserved love) received through the Sacraments that makes one (right now) perfect? Or is it God’s grace (or undeserved love) received in some other way that makes one (right now) perfect?

 

[Matt16_18]

Socrates4U

Looks like there are a few more things to put on your list of what we need to do to get to heaven:

We need to give up our will for God’s will.

We must be doers of the word, and not hearers only, lest we deceive ourselves.

We must live moral lives.

When we commit sin, we need to confess our sins in the Sacrament of Confession to be cleansed of all unrighteousness.

We need to feed the new life that we have received through the Sacrament of Baptism with the Bread of Life (the Sacrament of the Eucharist).
Have we forgotten anything? Hmm … have we added the necessity of developing a prayer life yet? And hey, we can’t do any of these things with a grumbling spirit … no wonder Jesus said that the “way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few”!

 

[Les_Richardson]

Vincent says,
“You can know you have eternal life. Any Catholic can know this. A Catholic just can’t say that he knows this with absolute and infallible certitude, or that he know this to the extent that he’s absolutely and infallibly certain that he won’t choose to reject God in the future. (That’s unless, of course, God grants you special revelation concerning your own predestination.) But if you know that you are in God’s Grace now, then you can know that you have eternal life- now.”

I agree. It isn’t more complicated than that. You must remember that you are speaking of a relationship between the Eternal, constant God and a fallible human being.

Our assurance of salvation is contained in the fact that God will absolutely hold up His end. Our *hope of salvation *is contained in the fact that we have every intention of holding up our end and perservering until the end.

 

[Charles]

Socrates4Jesus:

“Are you & i as merciful as God Himself?” What do you think?

I think the rest of my post probably can be used as the basis for my point of view regardless of whether the word is perfect or merciful.

I also raised some interesting points (I think) in my post previous to that, concerning the use of the word perfect and its elaboration later in Matthew that I would like to hear your thoughts on.

In any event, accept the answer I gave in the second part of my last post to apply to whether or not I am as perfect or as merciful as God. What do you think?

 

[Matt16_18]

Socrates4U

Is it God’s grace (or undeserved love) received through the Sacraments that makes one (right now) perfect? Or is it God’s grace (or undeserved love) received in some other way that makes one (right now) perfect?

Jesus founded his church and instituted the sacraments as the means for us to receive his grace. Is it possible to receive grace other than through the sacraments? Sure. When Protestants read the Catholic Bible in their services with respect and reverence, they are certainly receiving grace from God. But why would anyone want to separate themselves from the primary channels of grace that Jesus instituted on earth? The most incredible gift that God offers to man is the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. The gift of the Eucharist is intended by God to be the center of our life here on earth.

The Catholic Church is like the S.S. Queen Mary plowing through the dark and stormy seas to the port of destination. She is guided by the crew and captain picked by God. Protestants denominations are little crowded little lifeboats that are being tossed to and fro in the dark on the winds of doctrine. Some of these lifeboats are at least being pulled along by the wake of the Queen Mary. The people in the lifeboats are alive, but they are being fed with short rations. The Catholics that are in the protection of the ship are clean and dry, feasting on a banquet served to them by Jesus. The Catholics keep throwing lifelines to the Protestants and inviting them to come on aboard to share in the warmth and the feast. But the Protestants keep pushing the lifelines away. Why?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

You have all made some good points. However, you have not shown me any evidence from Scripture that there is a way to obey this command of Jesus that you “be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.”

I think i’ve found a passage that tells us just how this impossible command may become a possibility. It is found in Hebrews, chapter 10.

“…we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all…because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.” (verses 10 & 14)

Tell me, please, what is it that the author says makes you & i perfect?

 

[Charles]

Socrates4Jesus:

I think i’ve found a passage that tells us just how this impossible command may become a possibility. It is found in Hebrews, chapter 10.

“…we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all…because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.” (verses 10 & 14)

Tell me, please, what is it that the author says makes you & i perfect?

I continue to disagree on your fundemental assumptions. As I pointed out two or three posts back, Christ was fully aware of the impossibility of this. I already answered your question today when I quoted from scripture that even though this appears impossible, with God all things are possible.

However, it appears that this discussion is finally getting to the important stuff, so while I’d still like to hear you address my posts, let’s continue.

From Hebrews we read that it is the sacrifice of Jesus that perfects us. I’m willing to bet, however, that the word you want emphasized is “once” (since otherwise the passage contains nothing that all of us haven’t already agreed to). Again, we would agree completely with the fact that Christ died and sacrificed himself once for our sins. We hold this position as so fundamental to our faith that we re-present it every time we celebrate mass (note we do not re-sacrifice Christ).

Our position for this belief is found throughout scripture, from the well known descriptions of the last supper in the synoptic Gospels to the discourse in the latter half of John 6, to Paul’s exhortation that to eat unworthily of the Eucharist answers to the body and blood of Christ (I Cor 11:27).

If you are willing to accept that the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ and that it is Christ in this one sacrifice that we celebrate at Mass, then I’d say you are well on your way to returning to the fold!

 

[Matt16_18]

Socrates4U

• However, you have not shown me any evidence from Scripture that there is a way to obey this command of Jesus that you “be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.”*

We’re Catholics! Why should Catholics be limited to quoting scriptures to make a point for you? If you want to know why Catholics don’t believe in sola scriptura, then I think that you should start a different thread about that. That would keep this thread from drifting off into a tangential issue to your original question. Up to this point, you have had no objection to Catholics quoting the Catechism, the Fathers of the Church, and Catholic theologians. Why change horses in the middle of the stream?

The great Catholic theologian, the Rev. Garrigou-Lagrange has much to say about Christian perfection. Perhaps you could take a look chapter 5 of his classic book, *The Three Ways Of The Spiritual Life * to better understand Catholic thinking. The entire book can be read online.

The Three Ways of the Spiritual Life

Chapter 5 : Characteristics of the Three Stages of the Spiritual Life

Beginners.
Proficients or progressives
The Perfect.

Excerpt from chapter 5:

The perfect know themselves no longer merely in themselves, but in God, their source and their end, they examine themselves, pondering what is written of their existence in the book of life, and they never cease to see the infinite distance that separates them from their Creator. Hence their humility. This quasi-experimental contemplation of God proceeds from the gift of wisdom, and, by reason of its simplicity, it can be almost continuous; it can persist in the midst of intellectual work, conversation, external occupations, such continuity being impossible in the case of a knowledge of God which uses the mirror of parables or that of the mysteries of Christ. Finally, whereas the egoist, thinking always of himself, wrongly loves himself in all things, the perfect, thinking nearly always of God, loves Him constantly, and loves Him, not merely by avoiding sin and by imitating the virtues of our Lord, but ‘by adhering to Him, enjoying Him, desiring, as St. Paul said, to be dissolved and to be with Christ.’ It is the pure love of God and the love of souls in God; it is apostolic zeal, zealous beyond measure; but humble, patient and gentle. This is to love God, no longer merely ‘with the whole heart, with the whole soul, with the whole strength,’ but continuing up the scale, ‘with the whole mind.’ For he that is perfect is no longer merely rising gradually to this highest region in himself; he is established there; he is spiritualized and supernaturalized; he has now become truly ‘an adorer in spirit and in truth.’ …​

 

[deb1024]

Always remember we must take the whole of the Word of God, not just pick out a few verses and try to force the rest of the word of God to conform to what we believe those verses mean.

John 3:5 “Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” This has always been understood to mean water baptism, until descendants of the “Reformation” denied it and had to come up with a new interpretation. The favorites are that water refers to the water in the womb, the word of God, or even a synonym for the Spirit, as in “water, even the Spirit”. Desperate, all of them and no consensus.

Why do they take such desperate measures? Because the Bible contracts their tradition, assumptions, and they have to change what it clearly says in order to force the text to fit their preconceived tradition.

Another example is Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16. The first says, "And Peter *said *to them, “Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” The second one says, “And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.”

Do these verses agree with the words of Jesus? Do they agree with Titus 3:5 and the rest of the New Testament? Of course. But many Evangelicals like James McAurther will instantly offer a list of verses that say salvation is by faith (e.g., John 3:16) and then say something like, “Well I don t agree since I have twenty five verses that say salvation is by faith, so it can’t be by baptism! I have more verses on my side than you have to support your side.” What nonsense! Can we cut two verses out of the Bible because we find ten others than seem to contradict? Heavens no! We have to find a way to explain and except both and harmonize them into a cogent theology. Evangelicals have failed to do this and it is what Catholics have been doing well for 20 centuries.

May God bless you on your search,

Deb

 

[deb1024]

Socrates4Jesus,

There are many verses quoted in previous posts (Ephesians 5:3-6, Please read in context this is written to beleivers.

3 Immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you, as is fitting among holy ones,

4 no obscenity or silly or suggestive talk, which is out of place, but instead, thanksgiving.

5 Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the disobedient.)

Above all please remember that If you know in your heart that the Catholic Church is the one true church insituded by Christ. If you beleive that the Catholic Church has the Truth, and you turn away from it and choose another church you are commiting a very grave sin.

God Bless
Deb

 

[petunia]

Ric seems to disappear when faced with a difficult question and a ton of scripture passages that go against his fundamental beliefs. Why? Where did you go Ric?

I love hearing both sides of these questions/answers.

The “both/and” Catholic view seems to always ring true, whereas the “only meant for Jews” or “only meant for Gentiles” Fundamental view seems to leave too many holes in scripture.
Am I wrong?

 

[Charles]

Hi Petunia!

Could you elaborate a bit on what you mean by “Both/and” of the Catholic argument? Are you referring to inclusiveness?

I hope everyone is having a great Sunday! I just got back from another wonderful mass and we are spending the afternoon with our youngest son’s godparents. What a great day!

 

[Charles]

deb1024:

…and then say something like, “Well I don t agree since I have twenty five verses that say salvation is by faith, so it can’t be by baptism! I have more verses on my side than you have to support your side.” What nonsense! Can we cut two verses out of the Bible because we find ten others than seem to contradict? Heavens no! We have to find a way to explain and except both and harmonize them into a cogent theology.

I’m sorry to say I have been guilty of this type of “theology” myself. We should always presume the inerrancy of Tradition, of which Scripture is an extremely important part, regardless of what any one verse seems to say. These days, when a verse is thrown at me that seems to contradict Tradition, I try to stop and remind myself that people a lot smarter than I have been looking at this stuff for 2000 years. Just because I can’t figure out how something fits Tradition, doesn’t mean the answer doesn’t exist!

It may seem subtle, but this presumption has made a big difference in the way I defend our faith. Nowadays I don’t worry so much about having all the answers, I trust that I’ll be able to find them because someone smarter than me has already addressed whatever the issue is. And I never allow anyone to use my ignorance as a weapon against me and my faith. I’m fully willing to admit that I don’t know a lot more than I know! That said, when my ignorance is pointed out I do try to go back and find enlightenment.

 

[petunia]

Charles:

Hi Petunia!

Could you elaborate a bit on what you mean by “Both/and” of the Catholic argument? Are you referring to inclusiveness?

I’m no theologian but please bear with me and see if I can make my understanding of “both/and” clear.

If James writes, “faith without works is ” and Paul in Romans writes, “justified by faith apart from works of the law”, then both are true. I believe that, yes we are saved by faith and works are necessary to prove that faith. So BOTH faith AND works are necessary. Faith working through love of Jesus Christ, made possible solely by grace. Without faith, works are . I believe both authors of these verses and I believe there is no contradiction in scripture. Many “apparent” contradictions are not contradictions at all.

Maybe it’s not the best example but there are many instances where the author’s meaning and some interpretations are different and seem to conflict. I think that’s why there are so many different denominations out there.

I believe there is a need for a final authority……the Church.

Hope that kinda cleared things up.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Hey, all.

I guess at this point i’m not asking what the Catholic Church teaches is the way to be made perfect. I’m asking what the writer of Hebrews teaches is the way to be made perfect.

I’m not arguing that what the early church fathers taught beyond what is found in Scripture is not true. However, i think you may all agree that nothing an early church father teaches should be accepted as true if it contradicts what the EARLIEST of church fathers (the writers of the New Testament) teach. Augustine, for example, taught many things that were true & some that the Catholic Church has rejected as false.

It seems to me that if there is a way to be made as perfect as God then that would be a sure way to heaven. So, please, if anyone has an idea what the author of Hebrews is saying makes you or i perfect, please say so.

He wrote:

“…we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all…because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.” (chapter 10, verses 10 & 14)

What does HE say is the cause of you or i being perfect forever?

 

[Pax]

The reference in Hebrews 10:14 speaks to the christian[those who are sanctified]having been made perfect for all time by the offering of Jesus Christ on the cross. It does not mean that as a christian on earth you are living a perfect life. Chapter 12:22-23 helps makes this clear because it is talking about heaven where we find the “souls of just men made perfect.”

We are told to “be perfect as my heavenly father is perfect,” and we are also told that “nothing unclean will enter heaven.” What that tells us is really pretty simple. The regenerated man/woman is to follow the words in Hebrews 12:14 which says, “Purse peace with everyone, and the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.” Now it’s pretty clear what kind of holiness/perfection is required to get to heaven, but that does not mean that we can all “live” accordingly. So how is it that the “souls of just men are made perfect?”

This is accomplished by the process expounded in 1 Co 3:13-15 where Paul tells us that everyone’s work will be revealed and tested with fire, and that we may even suffer loss, but we will be saved. This is a description of our final sanctification. This describes the need for purgatory. It is the process by which we are finally made perfect through the merits of Christ crucified.

 

[Matt16_18]

A big problem since Luther has been the redefining of saving faith to mean intellectual assent to doctrine. Luther’s concept of faith is not Paul’s concept of faith – they are virtual opposites. Paul and James both use Abraham to define saving faith. Abraham’s faith was active – Abraham’s faith led him to a total abandonment to God’s will, whether that divine will was to leave Haran for unknown territory, or to take Isaac out into the wilderness to be offered up as a sacrifice. Abraham had the obedience of faith. In the distorted “faith” that Luther taught, if Abraham just believed that God existed, he would have had a faith pleasing to God. James shows the shallowness of this way of thinking by pointing out that even demons believe that God exists.

The vast majority of Lutherans in the world has abandoned Luther’s theology of forensic justification. That is why the Lutheran World Federation was able to sign the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification with the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, the worst elements of Luther’s theology of forensic justification live on among the fundamentalist and evangelical Protestants that preach the antinomian flavor of Once Saved, Always Saved. Justification, for these Protestant denominations, is invariably explained in terms of a legal contract and the contractual guarantees of the parties entering into the contract. In the fine print of the salvation contract between God and man is the clause that a “saved” man can commit any sin he feels like committing with no possibility that he will ever suffer damnation. Antinomianism is utter blasphemy, as it makes a mockery of the suffering of Jesus on the Cross. Jesus died to give us freedom from sin – he did suffer the agony of death on the Cross to give us the freedom to sin.

Both James and Paul had the same understanding of what constitutes saving faith. Saving faith is much more than mere intellectual assent to doctrine. There is nothing wrong with making an act of the will to believe the doctrines handed on by the Apostles. Indeed, one cannot reject Christian doctrine and also possess saving faith. But saving faith is active - it is the belief that one truly has been set free from the bondage of sin and living a life that shows it. Living a life free of mortal sin is entirely possible for a Christian, and doing that is hardly the definitive act of manifesting supernatural charity in the world. Merely avoiding mortal sin does not mean that we have become a great saint.

The eternal security doctrines of the fundamentalist and evangelical Protestants are the destruction of the Gospel. The idea that a one-time act of faith gives a Christian a guarantee that he can become morally degenerate without fear of eternal damnation is demonic heresy.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Thank you, Pax.

I think you are very close, but that you may have just half the truth. Let me explain, & please correct me if i am wrong.

What you describe does indeed explain the words “those who are being made holy.” This is what we agreed was the process of living the holy life. I even agree that there will be (as you mentioned that St. Paul points out in 1 Corinthians chapter 3) degrees of reward in heaven. There will even be, as he writes in that chapter, those who just make it there by the skin of their teeth!

However, your explanation does not explain the rest of the words of Hebrews 10:14, which are “by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever…” Notice that he does not write “will make perfect” or “is in the process of making perfect” but, instead, he writes “has made (as in past tense) perfect.”

Do you see how the author of Hebrews in chapter 10 is describing two different things here? How, do you think, is it possible for a person to at the same time BE perfect forever & also be in the process of working toward perfection?

If you have an opinion, let me know; then i’ll make a suggestion as to what i think he is explaining is the way to heaven.