Ticket to Heaven

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But what about those who have not been confirmed as saints, the imperfect people like myself? Should we do our very best to obey the commands of Jesus? Commands such as:

“…let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.” (Matthew 5:16)

and

“… Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” (Matthew 5:39)

and

“Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you…” (Matthew 5:44)

are these and all the commands of Jesus something we should try in every way to do (by the power that God alone may give us)?

In fact, should you & i try to obey every command our Lord Jesus gives to us?
 
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Socrates4Jesus:
So would you say, then, that i should do my best to obey every command to which Jesus expects me to submit?

And to you think that even the commands that seem nearly impossible to comply with (such as the difficult ones He gave during the Sermon on the Mount) He is able to give me the power to do?
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Understand what? 😉

Yes, I believe that you should do your best to obey Jesus. I agree that some of the beattitudes are very hard to accept sometimes.

Remember Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians (chapter 10 I think?) that we will not suffer temptations beyond your ability to handle. So yes, I would also say He is able to give you (and me) the power to handle even the toughies!

That said, a part of our Tradition acknowledges that we will continue to fall short. When we do he is merciful and forgives us as often as we ask. (I’ll refrain from digressing into a discussion on the sacrament of Reconciliation…)
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
"… Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39)

and

“Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you…” (Matthew 5:44)

are these and all the commands of Jesus something we should try in every way to do (by the power that God alone may give us)?

In fact, should you & i try to obey every command our Lord Jesus gives to us?
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I’m not sure if I know where you are going with this but the quotes you mention above are among the toughest for me to accept sometimes. I remember after 9/11 these words were not as near to my heart as they should have been. However, even then I was expected to obey Jesus. The fact that I did not was a shortfall (sin).

I would say that obeying Jesus’ words certainly falls within the living of a holy life.
 
This feels like a loaded question. Why would we not try our best, with God’s grace, to do everything that our Lord and Savior commands?

BTW, thanks to Charles and Pax for your warm welcomes.
 
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Socrates4Jesus:
Thanks, Charles.

Right. Thanks for your caution that it is not a good idea to avoid hell through ignorance. If that were the case, then why evangelize at all? It would be better if no one ever heard of Jesus as the only way to heaven.

My ignorance, at this point, is more a matter of being ignorant about the role good works plays in my receiving God’s grace. My concern is that, if i put trust in my good deeds & Christ’s sacrificial death, i’ll end up in hell. That is what i’ve been taught & what i’m trying to determine is true or not. If my good deeds do contribute to my being saved from hell, then that is where i’m ignorant.

St. Paul writes, for example, that God “…has saved us and called us to a holy life–not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace.” (2 Timothy 1:9). This tells me that i’m not saved from hell by anything good that i’ve done. The Catholic teaching–or my misunderstanding of it–seems to contradict St. Paul.

I’ll appreciate any thoughts you have on this.
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Socrates,

Paraphrasing James…a faith without works, is a dead faith. Ever notice that the first and last time that Paul mentions ‘faith’ in his letter to the Roman Christians, he says ‘the obedience of faith’? That’s quite a pair of bookends that give insight to what’s in between.

That said, there is nothing we can ‘do’ apart from Christ that will merit anything in the sight of God. We must abide in Him, and Him in us for our works to be worthy in the eyes of God.

Look at 2Cor 9:8 - And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.

It is only by the grace of God that we can gain merit. This dovetails perfectly with your quote of 2Tim 1:9.
Also with Ephesians 2:10 - For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
So I think that the Catholic position in no way contradicts Paul. Unfortunately, what many people believe to be the Catholic position, does. 🙂

I hope this helps.
God Bless.
 
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Socrates4Jesus:
I think i understand.

So would you say, then, that i should do my best to obey every command to which Jesus expects me to submit?

And to you think that even the commands that seem nearly impossible to comply with (such as the difficult ones He gave during the Sermon on the Mount) He is able to give me the power to do?
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Jesus gave us the Church that we may have the graces to comply with every law that He established for us. Without the graces from God we are complete failures. With all of the Blessing’s Jesus gave to us in His church through the sacraments it would be entirely our fault to die on this earth without becoming a saint.
 
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Socrates4Jesus:
As St. Paul quoted the Old Testament: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one good, not even one.” (Romans 3, verses 10-12) My conduct, compared to that of Jesus, certainly demonstrates the truth of Paul’s words.

That is why i am asking others to help me grasp the way to be saved from hell. That is why i struggle with the idea that my conduct in any way contributes to my redemption.
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Socrates,

Paul is quoting Psalm 14 here. PLEASE read all of Psalm 14. Paul was one of the greatest scripture scholars of his time. For him to use Psalm 14 to mean that all men on the face of the earth are corrupt evildoers, he would have to wrench the original text out of context. Look…

1 The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.

2 The LORD looks down from heaven
on the sons of men
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
3 All have turned aside,
they have together become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.

4 Will evildoers never learn-
those who devour my people as men eat bread
and who do not call on the LORD ?
5 There they are, overwhelmed with dread,
for God is present in the company of the righteous.
6 You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor,
but the LORD is their refuge.

7 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When the LORD restores the fortunes of his people,
let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!

Paul is talking about those which do not belong to God. Notice how the evildoers ‘devour my people as men eat bread’. Verse 5 says that ‘God is present in the company of the righteous.’ For Paul to mean what you say, there would be no one who is righteous. Please prayerfully consider this. Those who belong to God are in a state of grace, and are not included Pauls statement.

I hope this helps.
God Bless.
 
Socrates,

We all get discouraged in our own weakness, but we are reassured in God’s grace. Paul’s words in Eph 3:20 will warm your heart. He says, “Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine.” God promises us and grants us everything. He wants us “to be holy as He is holy.” If God wants us to have that holiness, then it is really a small thing for us to want it and to ask for it in the Lord’s name. It’s all for the love and glory of God.
 
It seems you are all in agreement that all of us should obey every command of Jesus, no matter how difficult.

Please then consider these verses:

“We know that we have come to know [Jesus Christ] if we obey his commands. The man who says, ‘I know him,’ but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:3-4)

and

“If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of [Jesus Christ].” (1 John 2:29)

and

“Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness…No one who continues to sin has either seen [Jesus Christ] or known him.” (1 John 3:4, 6)

and

“We love because he first loved us…This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.” (1 John 4:19; 5:3-4)

I believe you are all saying, then, that a person who knows a command of Jesus yet willfully continues to disobey that command:
  • Does not know Christ
  • Lies if he says he does know Christ
  • Is not righteous
  • Is not born of God
  • Does not have faith in Christ
Yet, His commands are not a burden, for he gives us the power to obey. In a real way, He makes the impossible, possible.

Is this what you are all saying?
 
Christopher:

Your points on obedience do indeed summarize the consensus of Catholics in this thread. Interestingly, you might be aware that this question led to the “Lordship Salvation” controversy in Evangelical circles, on whether we are to accept Christ, not just as Savior, but as Lord, as well.
 
Yes, Vincent; thanks for pointing that out. I suppose we should then rephrase Charles’s question to which we are searching for an answer from this:

“Do we get to Heaven through Grace by accepting Christ as our savior or do we get to Heaven through Grace by accepting Christ as our savior and manifesting that choice for the rest of our lives by living a holy life of faith and good works?”

to this:

Do i get to Heaven:

(A) by grace through repentance & trusting Christ as my own Lord and Savior, but not by trusting in the holy life of good works that He produces in me?

or

(B) by grace through repentance & trusting Christ as my own Lord & Savior & in trusting in the holy life of good works that He produces in me?

At the risk of repeating myself, i think it might be helpful to point out that believing (A) is true does NOT mean that one believes that a person who lives like the devil will get into heaven (i believe firmly that such a person will not).

Belief (A) is the one i held when i submitted my first post in this discussion thread. Does everyone agree that belief (B) represent (albeit in a simplistic form) the consensus of what the Catholic faith teaches is the way to heaven?
 
Christopher:

I wouldn’t describe the Catholic position as necessarily including the proposition that one must “trust in the holy life of good works that He produces in us”.

While the Council of Trent teaches that a Christian does not sin if “he performs good works with a view to an eternal recompense,” it does not follow that when a Christian performs good works he must do so with a view to an eternal recompense. For this reason, describing the Catholic position as “trusting in the holy life, etc.” seems like an exaggeration.

Here’s another reason: Trent strongly emphasizes that, “God forbid that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself, and not in the Lord, whose bounty towards all men is so great, that He will have the things which are His own gifts be their merits.” “Trusting in the holy life of good works that He produces in us,” sounds too close to what Trent is warning against.

Finally, “trusting in the holy life of good works that He produces in us” seems to conflict with the Catholic understanding of a holy life, which is aptly summarized by St. Therese of Liseux:

After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our *justice * is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.
 
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Socrates4Jesus:
Yes, Vincent; thanks for pointing that out. I suppose we should then rephrase Charles’s question to which we are searching for an answer from this:

“Do we get to Heaven through Grace by accepting Christ as our savior or do we get to Heaven through Grace by accepting Christ as our savior and manifesting that choice for the rest of our lives by living a holy life of faith and good works?”

to this:

Do i get to Heaven:

(A) by grace through repentance & trusting Christ as my own Lord and Savior, but not by trusting in the holy life of good works that He produces in me?

or

(B) by grace through repentance & trusting Christ as my own Lord & Savior & in trusting in the holy life of good works that He produces in me?

I’m not sure the word trust works in this context, but I may just be missing your point. The holy life, as I see it, is something we are to do (the manifestation of our choice to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior if you will). I’m not sure trust implies action on my part, though I can see how you could argue it in the same vein as I have said Faith is an action.

Trust sounds a bit like saying, “If I’ve really accepted Jesus, then I’ll know it because I’ll be living a holy life.”

I think my position is closer to, “I choose to accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior and I freely accept God’s yoke to live a holy life as proof of my choice and because God wills it.”

This may be more a semantic difference than anything else.
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Vincent said:
Christopher:

St. Therese of Liseux:

After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our *justice * is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.
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Way to go Vincent! This quote is also incorporated into the Catechism’s teaching of salvation and it really lit the bulb for me as I was going through my period of trying to figure out what the Catholic Church really believed.

The whole time I’ve been following this thread I’ve been wanting to to shout, “Stop worrying about how you’re saved and love the Lord!!” We can’t trust our faith or our works - only God and his infinite love and grace expressed perfectly in the life and passion of His son. Trust Him and then live your life doing your best to grow and love in Him.

As an aside Socrates, instead of asking a handful of anonymous folks on the internet, why not consult the Catechism? While we are all doing our best to faithfully represent the Church’s teachings, why not go straight to the source? That’s one of the great things about being Catholic - My, Vincent’s, Pax’s, Charles’, etc. opinions aren’t what matter, it’s the truth handed down from the Apostles which is beautifully presented in the Catechism.

You folks are all in my prayers, following this discussion has been a great blessing for me - thank you and God be praised!
 
Thanks, Vincent & Charles. You two (& others) are really helping me get past all the misconceptions i have of the Catholic faith. You are truly gracious teachers (i can understand why the thread now has so many stars!) & you are both OK in my book.

I gather i should really rephrase my understanding of the two beliefs from this:

Do i get to Heaven:

(A) by grace through repentance & trusting Christ as my own Lord and Savior, but not by trusting in the holy life of good works that He produces in me?

or

(B) by grace through repentance & trusting Christ as my own Lord & Savior & in trusting in the holy life of good works that He produces in me?

to this:

Do i get to Heaven:

(A) by grace through repentance & trusting Christ as my own Lord and Savior, BUT NOT by trusting Him to produce in me a holy life of faith & good works that will somehow help achieve my entrance into eternity with Him?

or

(B) by grace through repentance & trusting Christ as my own Lord and Savior, & ALSO by trusting Him (& taking action to cooperate with Him) to produce in me a holy life of faith & good works that will somehow help achieve my entrance into eternity with Him?

Belief (A), of course, represents my original belief when i first visited the discussion forum. Belief (B) represents my imperfect understanding of what the Catholic faith teaches is the way to heaven. Both belief (A) & (B) hold that good works are necessary to living the Christian (the godly, consecrated or holy life). Belief (A), however, holds that the good works do not contribute in any way toward getting a Christian to heaven. Belief (B), in contrast, holds that the good works are necessary, in some way, for getting a Christian to heaven (but the believer should never trust in the works themselves, but in the Holy Spirit who produces them by His will & power).

Is this closer to the truth?
 
Sorry this is taking so long. I think i’m close to a decision, here & just want to be sure i understand.
 
If anyone else thinks (B) in the previous post is near to the Catholic teaching on the way to heaven, let me know.

Maybe i’m asking something that is not so easy for a Catholic to do? Many protestants might explain in a few words what they believe the Bible teaches is the way to escape hell. Perhaps the teaching of the Catholic faith on this is not an easy thing to explain?

But if i’m close, just say so.
 
quote=Socrates4Jesus by grace through repentance & trusting Christ as my own Lord and Savior, & ALSO by trusting Him (& taking action to cooperate with Him) to produce in me a holy life of faith & good works that will somehow help achieve my entrance into eternity with Him?

(B), in contrast, holds that the good works are necessary, in some way, for getting a Christian to heaven (but the believer should never trust in the works themselves, but in the Holy Spirit who produces them by His will & power).

Is this closer to the truth?
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Insofar as some action is needed on our part to accept God’s grace then I would agree with your point B. I also agree that the Catholic position is that salvation comes from grace alone, and that no believer should presume to merit Heaven through their good works. And, yes, even the merit we do receive (to become heirs) from our good works comes ultimately from God so even that is not of our own doing.

Steve,

Good post. I agree completely with your setiment that the ultimate objective is simply to love Jesus. I have to admit, though, that I find these types of discussions, where everyone seems to be getting along and we are all motivated to better understand our faith to be very beneficial (it sounds like you do, too!).

This discussion has certainly helped me to better vocalize my faith and if nothing else that will be a huge benefit to me as I continue to talk to anyone who asks about why I love this Church of ours so much!

Christopher, I’m sure I’ve said this already but you are a class act yourself. Thank you so much for pushing me to explore my faith in a much more rigorous way than normal!
 
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Socrates4Jesus:
No, i was not thinking as deep as getting into heaven before death (perhaps that was St. John’s experience as he wrote in Revelation?)

I’m thinking about the requirements to make it to heaven.
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I think you might mean by this visions, ecstacies ? If so you must pray, meditate on aspects of Jesus’ life. If the Lord finds you worthy you may find you experience contemplation (a gift from God that can not be earned or forced) and perhaps you will have experiences like St Theresa of Avila did.
🙂
 
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