Ticket to Heaven

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By the way. This is a fantastic thread! I am learning so much from all of you and I find myself actually looking forward to get online just to check out what else you all have said!

Christopher, you are a great debater. It is refreshing to have a discussion with someone who doesn’t see eye to eye with the people around him, but is able to ask, critique and (try to 😉 ) refute without getting all bent out of shape. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut!
 
Thank you, everyone!

Your responses really give me much to ponder. I believe i’ve failed to respond to some extremely good points, but want everyone to know that i’ve read every post (though i may not have retained or grasped every idea). I appreciate each one who has stuck with me thus far.

I’m resisting the desire to continue the discussion at the moment, for i have a mid-term exam for which i must study for my Network + certification class. The exam is today. I’ll try to continue the discussion soon.

God bless,
Christopher
 
Just want everyone to know that i took some time to read all your posts in this thread from the beginning. I really appreciate the thought everyone has put into their answers & questions for me. You are proving, to me, that apologetics is really a beautiful thing–it’s not just a science, it is an art.

What impresses me, too, is the love you all show in your posts–it’s like the love of Christ Himself.

I need some time to think & read the Word & pray through all this. I’ll leave a post when i have any more questions.

Also, i have a request for prayer. My mother had a heart attack (her second) & suffers from chronic diabetes & severe depression. Not sure how long she has, but any requests on her behalf will be appreciated.

God bless you all.

Christopher
 
I’ll absolutely pray for your mother Christopher. Come back when you can, I’ve enjoyed our conversations.
 
I’m back, all. Again, thank you for sticking with me thus far!

After reading through all your posts it seems to me that our discussion thus far is like when i went camping with a group of college students years ago. We drove up to a lake in the Adirondack Mountains (in Northern New York State), canoed out to an island, & camped there for more than a week. We explored the shores of the lake via canoe & hiked the trails. But is wasn’t until we made the many-mile hike up to the top of a nearby mountain peak & looked down that we had a full understanding of where we were & the full beauty of God’s creation.

Our conversations in here in this thread remind me of my discussions then: I’d say, “Was that a mourning dove i just heard?” & a fellow camper would say that it was a loon & point out the bird on the water with it’s young. Someone would comment on what a fine elm that was & i’d point out the sweet sap & say i believed it was really a maple tree.

From the top of that mountain peak, however, the details were not as clear from up there, but the broad view of the landscape was breathtaking. It was the highlight of the trip & really put everything in perspective.

I’m thinking i should try to describe the broad view of what i think the Bible teaches me about the way to heaven & see what all of you think. My hope is that an analogy will make the rest of our discourse easier for me to understand & provide some perspective to guide me toward a better understanding of the truth. So, here goes!
 
Looking forward to it Socrates! I’m on the way out the door for the weekend, though, so I’ll be out until Monday. It’s my inlaws 50th wedding anniversary tomorrow!
 
Becoming cf. Being - a Possible Analogy for Salvation:

The idea i’m struggling with is whether there is a difference between becoming a Christian & being a Christian. What i believe the Bible teaches is that there is a difference between becoming a child of God (which i believe is salvation) & being a child of God (which i believe is sanctification). What i think all of you are saying (& please correct me if i’m mistaken) is that sanctification & salvation are the same thing. Allow me to use this illustration to point out one reason why i think they are not the same & why that difference is an important one.

My wife has never had any trouble telling my first-born son how he should be: Every day she had counsel or reprimand for him such as, “Pick up after yourself” or “Don’t bother your brother” or “Please listen when i talk to you.”

However, when my son asked her how he became her child, she said, “You better talk to your dad about this.” So i did. 🙂

The point i’m trying to make is that the question, “How did i become your son?” produced a different reaction from my wife than “How do i be a good son?” My wife, who had no trouble explaining the latter, did not want to discuss the former, because they are very different questions with very different answers.

To BE a son in our family, he is expected to put the needs of his parents & brothers above his own (or at least consider our needs to be as important as his own). However, to BECOME our son was the result of at least three causes:
  1. My wife & i being intimate with each other.
  2. God, who “created [his] inmost being; [and] knit [him] together in [his] mother’s womb.” (Psalm 139:13)
  3. My wife giving birth to him.
How to BE our son has nothing to do with these three causes. Being our son requires give & take between us & him. It has much to do with the decisions he makes to act according, or against, our desires for him. Therefore, becoming our son is not the same thing as being our son.

I’d like to submit for discussion my idea that BECOMING a child of God is not the same thing as BEING a child of God. Please let me explain:

I’ve had long discussions with two Mormons who visited my home. They had the idea that everyone (except those who leave the Mormon Church) is heaven bound. Their belief comes from their false idea that the Bible & Book of Mormon teaches we are all born God’s children. So i asked them to read out loud this verse:

“…to all who received him [Jesus Christ], to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God…” (John 1:12) After reading it i asked them how someone can become something that he already is. The answer, of course, is that you cannot; so we are not born children of God, we become children of God.

In comparison to becoming a Christian (which is salvation or being saved from hell) is the idea of BEING a Christian (which is sanctification or allowing God to give you the power to change your life).

Hence, St. Paul writes: “BE imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself for up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.” (Ephesians 5:1-2)

So i believe that salvation is when a person is saved from the penalty of sin. Sanctification, in contrast, is when a person is being saved from the power of sin. Resurrection will be when she is saved from the presence of sin.

CONTINUED IN THE NEXT POST …
 
One might hold, therefore, that St. Paul answers three questions with many of the passages of scripture that we have all quoted in this discussion thread:

A. How do we BECOME God’s children?

B. How do we BE (or live) as God’s children?

C. Why should we live as God’s children should live?

I propose that (A) is the answer to how we are saved from hell, (B) is the answer to how a person who is already saved from hell will live, & (C) is the answer to what motivates us to do (B).

Looking at Ephesians 2:8-10 in this light, i see the following:

Verse 8: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God…” (This verse answers question A above).

Verse 9: “…not by works, so that no one can boast.” (This verse answers question A, too).

Verse 10: “For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” (This verse seems to me to answer question C, but not A).

And i should add Ephesians 3:16-19:

“I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through the Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge–that you may be filled with the full measure of God.” (Here, i trust, is the answer to question B, above).

I hope then you will all see one logical reason why i’m still clinging to this view. Just as the birth of my son is a very different thing from the behavior of my son, so is the act of becoming a child of God a very different thing from the act of living out the holy life.

I’m thinking that perhaps there is a confusion between correlation & causation. That is, just because two things are related it does not mean that one is the cause of the other. We all agree that good works produced by God cannot be separated from a true child of God. However, good works, it seems to me, do not cause my getting into heaven any more than my son’s good deeds caused him to be born.

So, i want you to please consider whether being is a cause of becoming, or whether becoming is the cause of being. That is, are my good works (done by God in me) the cause of my becoming a Christian? or are my good works the consequence of my becoming a Christian? Are good deeds done in me a reason i’m saved from hell, or just the result of my being saved from hell?

I really see this as the roadblock to my accepting the Catholic faith. I’ll appreciate any thoughts any of you might have for me.

Blessings to all of you!
Christopher
 
I also want to thank each of you who are praying for my mother. Your prayers are needed.
 
Christopher:

Good works are the consequence of being made an adopted son of God in Jesus Christ. It is not the cause. The Catholic Church insists on it:

“Nothing that precedes justification, neither faith nor works, merits the grace of justification.”
Once you are an adopted son of God in Jesus Christ, God rewards the fruits of your grace-enabled response to the obedience of faith, which works in love, with even more grace and a deeper participation in the life of salvation.
 
Vincent said:
Christopher:

Good works are the consequence of being made an adopted son of God in Jesus Christ. It is not the cause. The Catholic Church insists on it:

"Nothing that precedes justification, neither faith nor works, merits the grace of justification."Once you are an adopted son of God in Jesus Christ, God rewards the fruits of your grace-enabled response to the obedience of faith, which works in love, with even more grace and a deeper participation in the life of salvation.
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Thanks, Vincent.

I’m going to take the time to read the link on the Council of Trent. However, i entered a search for the words quoted above & my Web browser failed to find them on that Web page. Will you double check that you gave me the correct one?

I’m not sure how your quote above fits into the analogy, or whether it agrees or disagrees with the idea that good works are not a cause of being saved from hell. If justification is synonymous with salvation, then i completely agree that the Bible teaches that nothing i do prior to conversion saves.

When you say, “Good works are the consequence of being made an adopted son of God in Christ Jesus” i completely agree, as well; i’m not sure whether or not this is a confirmation of what i posted. I suppose i’m looking at salvation as a life-changing even in a person’s life, something like making a permanent u-turn in the road of life. I’m not sure if you agree with this or not, either.

It does seem to be what our Lord & Savior taught, when he said:

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.” (John 5:24, emphasis added)

God bless,

Christopher
 
Christopher:

The quote I used is a more modern translation than what’s in the link. Search this instead: “grace itself”. It should be located under the heading,

CHAPTER VIII.
In what manner it is to be understood, that the impious is justified by faith, and gratuitously.
I’m not sure how your quote above fits into the analogy, or whether it agrees or disagrees with the idea that good works are not a cause of being saved from hell. If justification is synonymous with salvation, then i completely agree that the Bible teaches that nothing i do prior to conversion saves.
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It agrees. In fact, the Council of Trent considers the following proposition to be incompatible with the Catholic Faith:

“[M]an may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ. . . .”
In other words, a non-Christian, no matter what he does, can’t work his way into God’s family.
When you say, “Good works are the consequence of being made an adopted son of God in Christ Jesus” i completely agree, as well; i’m not sure whether or not this is a confirmation of what i posted. I suppose i’m looking at salvation as a life-changing even in a person’s life, something like making a permanent u-turn in the road of life. I’m not sure if you agree with this or not, either.
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So far, you’re affirming the Catholic position: the moment God makes you his adopted son in Jesus Christ, you’re a new creation. To use Trent’s language, you go from being unjust to just; from being an enemy of God to being a friend of God, and thus, a son, and so, an heir. That’s certainly a life-changing event.
 
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Vincent:
It agrees. In fact, the Council of Trent considers the following proposition to be incompatible with the Catholic Faith:

"[M]an may [NOT] be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ. . . ."In other words, a non-Christian, no matter what he does, can’t work his way into God’s family.

So far, you’re affirming the Catholic position: the moment God makes you his adopted son in Jesus Christ, you’re a new creation. To use Trent’s language, you go from being unjust to just; from being an enemy of God to being a friend of God, and thus, a son, and so, an heir. That’s certainly a life-changing event.
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Vincent:

Thanks. I added the word not to your quote above, as you appeared to mistype it; is this correct?

I’ll appreciate your continued patience with me, for now i’m more confused! I do not understand why you & others appear to be arguing (in the previous posts) that the good works the Holy Spirit produces in a child of God ARE a cause of her getting into heaven. You now seem to be saying the opposite.

Am i correct in believing that verse 10 of Ephesians 2 & verses 14-19 of Ephesians 3 describe why we should, & how we may, live the holy life but they do NOT describe how to get to heaven?

Please explain.
 
Ultimately, just remember that faith without works is dead. Can you get to heaven with a dead faith? That’s up to God. But think of works as not only works of charity but also works of obedience. If your friend or wife does something to offend you, as a disciple of Jesus you are supposed to forgive them. If someone makes fun of you, as a disciple of Jesus, you take it silently. If someone cheats you, you let yourself be cheated. If you know looking at women in the wrong way is morally wrong, you cooperate with the grace of God and don’t do it. These are all works of obedience, which apply along with works of charity. If you are asking what’s the least you can do to get to heaven (or the basic requirements) you’re missing the whole point of Jesus’ message. Remember that God’s law isn’t imposed to take away our fun. God knows us better than we know ourselves and what’s best for us. Remember that Jesus said that he came that we might have life and have it more abundantly.
 
Christopher:

The quote as I originally typed it was correct.

The Council of Trent considers the following proposition incompatible with the Catholic Faith:

“[M]an may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ. . . .”
In other words, the Council of Trent considers the following proposition compatible with the Catholic Faith:

“[M]an may NOT be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ. . . .”
To reiterate, the Council of Trent asserts that someone who is not justified cannot work his way into Heaven.

I apologize if the discussion has made the issue more confusing. Let me try to clarify it:
  • The good works that the Holy Spirit produces in a child of God is a **consequence **— not the cause— of having been made a child of God in the first place.
  • The consequence of good works that the Holy Spirit produces in a child of God is also a **cause ** of the increase in the life of being a child of God that he ***already * ** has received.
To simplify:

  1. * God gives you the life of divine sonship.
    • The life of divine sonship produces good works.
    • God rewards these good works with an increase in the life of divine sonship.
    • This increased life of divine sonship produces more good works.
    • God rewards these additional good works with an even greater increase in life of divine sonship
    • And on it goes.
    There are two reasons why it seems that Catholics argue that “the good works the Holy Spirit produces in a child of God are a cause of getting into heaven.” The first has to do with the cause of the increase in the life of divine sonship. This is otherwise known as growing in righteousness. Protestants often term this “sanctification”.

    The second reason why it seems that Catholics argue that “the good works the Holy Spirit produces in a child of God are a cause of getting into heaven,” is that Catholics believe that those who are already children of God can forfeit their inheritance of eternal life by being unfaithful or disobedient to their heavenly Father.

    For example, a child of God might knowingly and deliberately refuse to do the “good works, which God prepared beforehand, that [he] should walk in them” (c.f. Ephesians 2:10). If God calls his child to feed the man in front of him, who is starving to the point of death, and the child refuses to feed the man, then he is acting in disobedience. These situations are covered in Matthew 25:41ff and James 2.

    It is in this sense that Catholics often *seem * to be saying that “the good works the Holy Spirit produces in a child of God are a cause of getting into heaven.”

    Your interpretation of the scriptural verses you’ve provided are harmonious with how the Catholic Church would read them. They address people who are already children of God— those who already have been promised with the inheritance of eternal life— are to live. The children of God are called to live the obedience of faith (c.f Romans 1:5), which works through love (c.f. Galatians 5:6).

    It must be remembered that all is a gift of Grace. God giving you the life of divine sonship is a gift of Grace. The life of divine sonship producing good works is a gift of Grace. God rewarding good works with an increase in the life of divine sonship is a gift of Grace. Living the obedience of faith working through love is a gift of Grace. And finally, God bringing us into the promised inheritance of eternal life is a gift of Grace.

    I hope this helps.
 
Vincent did a nice job of explanation in his last post.

I am going to throw a few things into the mix which hopefully be of help and not cause confusion. The first is to point out that our initial justification which brings us into sonship and friendship with God, includes the passing over of previously commited sins. This can be seen clearly in Rom 3:25 where Paul says, “whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed;” We must, therefore, remember that future sin after our initial justification requires repentance. It is not a once saved always saved situation.

Another thing to keep in mind is that justification and sanctification are sometimes used inter-changeably in scripture as demonstrated by the following verses.

Justification/Sanctification

1Cor 6:11 And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Heb 13:12
Therefore Jesus also suffered outside the city gate in order to sanctify the people by his own blood.

Acts 20:32
And now I commend you to God and to the message of his grace, a message that is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all who are sanctified.

Acts 26:18
to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

1Cor 1:2
To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

Rom 6:22
But now that you have been freed from sin and enslaved to God, the advantage you get is sanctification. The end is eternal life.

Heb 2:11
For the one who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one Father. For this reason Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters,

HEB 10:9
And it is by God’s will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10:29
How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

1Peter 1:2
who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:

This is why sonship and inheritance are such important terms in scripture. Sanctification and our repentance for new sins committed after our initial justification, are part of our works but are never to be understood in terms of a wage. Again, we do not earn our way into heaven, any more than a child earns their inheritance. But even an inheritance can be lost. God our father expects things from us. His word goes out in power. Just as our natural fathers have given us the benefits of family and household, so also God gives us the benefits of the divine household. But in both cases their are expectations of the sons and daughters, and the inheritance can be forfeited. The parable of the Prodigal Son is very instructive in this regard.
 
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germys9:
Ultimately, just remember that faith without works is dead. Can you get to heaven with a dead faith? That’s up to God. But think of works as not only works of charity but also works of obedience. If your friend or wife does something to offend you, as a disciple of Jesus you are supposed to forgive them. If someone makes fun of you, as a disciple of Jesus, you take it silently. If someone cheats you, you let yourself be cheated. If you know looking at women in the wrong way is morally wrong, you cooperate with the grace of God and don’t do it. These are all works of obedience, which apply along with works of charity. If you are asking what’s the least you can do to get to heaven (or the basic requirements) you’re missing the whole point of Jesus’ message. Remember that God’s law isn’t imposed to take away our fun. God knows us better than we know ourselves and what’s best for us. Remember that Jesus said that he came that we might have life and have it more abundantly.
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Well put, Germys! i agree with all you have said.
 
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