Ticket to Heaven

[Socrates4Jesus]

Charles:

…Regardless of where you are in your life’s journey and regardless of where you are led in the future, I have been impressed with the spirit of reconciliation, maturity and honor with which you have carried out this debate…5. See my response to your third point on this one. This would be a topic I would love to continue discussing with you at your convenience…God bless. Have a good evening and I’ll talk to you later!

That is encouraging, Charles; thank you. If you met me a couple of years ago, you’d probably hold a different opinion. I won a lot of arguments but lost a lot of people. It’s good to know, as the children’s song goes, “He’s still working on me to make me what i aught to be.”

Your comments, as well as those of many, here, really demonstrate a desire to live up to St. Peter’s words: “Always give an answer to everyone who asks you the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect…” (1 Peter 3:15). Three Catholics i’ve met in the course of my life have impressed me with the sense of peace & joy they had about them–one was a monsignor, one was a college professor & one was a father-in-law of my wife’s sister. I’ve met Protestants with this same sense of peace about them, too. This to me is evidence, though perhaps not proof, that the Spirit of God is working in their lives.

Perhaps the question i’m asking here is if doing the good works, but not trusting in them, is good enough for God. From a rational point of view it seems to make sense, as there are a few possible outcomes:

1. The Catholic belief that the good things i do help to merit my salvation is FALSE. I do those good things (as far as i am able) but do not believe that they help merit my getting into heaven.
2. The Catholic belief that the good things i do help to merit my salvation is TRUE. I do those good things (as far as i am able) but do not believe that they help merit my getting into heaven.
3. The Catholic belief that the good things i do help to merit my salvation is FALSE. I do those good things (as far as i am able) & repent (or change my mind) & believe that they do help merit my getting into heaven.
4. The Catholic belief that the good things i do help to merit my salvation is TRUE. It is impossible to do the good things required without attending a Catholic church, so i am choose not to do some of those good things.

Hence, i come to these conclusions:

If #1 is the truth, then as far as i see i am heaven-bound should i die at this moment because my trust is completely in what Jesus has done for me & not in what i do for Him.

If #2 is the truth, then as far as i see i am heaven-bound (or at least Purgatory-bound) should i die at this moment, because my sin of unbelief is really based on ignorance, as i am not yet convinced.

If #3 is the truth, then as far as i see i would be hell-bent. My faith, being only as good as the object in which it is placed, would fail to rescue me from the fires of hell.

If #4 is the truth, then as far as i see i would, at the worst, be Purgatory-bound. Again, this is because my sin would be based on ignorance.

To me, to win = getting into heaven, & to lose = ending up in hell, & to break even = starting off in Purgatory. As far as i understand, to remain in the understanding i have now would mean that i either win or break even. To change my mind would mean that i win or lose. I’m not much of a gambler. Without convincing evidence that the Bible teaches that my good deeds merit my entrance into heaven i would have to remain as i am now.

I am interested in hearing whatever evidence you have to help shed light on the idea of good works meriting my escaping hell.

God bless,
Christopher

 

[Vincent]

It’s easy to misunderstand the Catholic Church’s position on “meriting” salvation. Several questions need to be addressed:

• What does the Catholic Church mean by “merit”?
• What does the Catholic Church mean by works “meriting” Heaven?
• What are those works that “merit” Heaven?

If we mistakenly think that “merit” here means “earn,” then no wonder we recoil with horror. But that’s *not * what the Catholic Church means by “merit”.

Likewise, the following examples could show the “meriting” of Heaven, but *not * the earning of it:

“For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury” (Romans 2:6-7).

The same goes with the parable of the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew 25:31-46. The Sheep are graciously rewarded (i.e. they “merit”) with the inheritance of the Kingdom for their works of mercy.

In either Romans 2:6-7 or Matthew 25:31-46, the ones who do good works “merit” eternal life, but they do not earn it. To reiterate (and I’ll repeat myself over and over again on this), “merit” does not mean “earning a wage”.

Just for clarity, here’s a summary of Catholic justification. For more info see the late Fr. William Most’s “Earning Salvation?”

1. First, while we were still sinners, and “wicked” at that, God gave us His Grace in Baptism and saved us without any “merit”— much less earning— on our part.

If we were to die right after receiving baptism, we would go straight to Heaven. Was any “merit” of good works involved? No. None w-h-a-t-s-o-e-v-e-r. To quote Jimmy Akin again, “You don’t have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven.”

1. Once we are saved (again— without any “merit”, much less earning— on our part), then any good works we do afterword, like feeding the hungry and clothing the naked, is God’s gift to us that “merits” the inheritance of Eternal Life. See again the parable of the Sheep and the Goats.

Again, this “merit” of good works is not a wage that is earned, but rather it is God’s promise to us that we will receive the inheritance of eternal Life because we are His sons in Jesus Christ. Far from being a wage that is earned, the merit of good works is a free gift of Grace.

A student of the late Fr. Most put it this way: “You can’t earn [Heaven], but you can blow it.”

 

[Charles]

Socrates4Jesus:

To me, to win = getting into heaven, & to lose = ending up in hell, & to break even = starting off in Purgatory. As far as i understand, to remain in the understanding i have now would mean that i either win or break even. To change my mind would mean that i win or lose. I’m not much of a gambler. Without convincing evidence that the Bible teaches that my good deeds merit my entrance into heaven i would have to remain as i am now.

I am interested in hearing whatever evidence you have to help shed light on the idea of good works meriting my escaping hell.

I may argue that from my point of view either Heaven or purgatory equals a win because in both instances, the ultimate reality for me will be the same (heaven), but that’s a rather minor point. I might also caution you against assuming you can avoid hell through ignorance. You don’t sound ignorant to me!

As far as your good deeds meriting entrance into Heaven I want to re-emphasize that I think both you and I would agree nothing we can do will merit our entrance into Heaven. As Paul said we have all fallen short. It is only by the grace of God that we can enter Heaven. God’s grace is freely given but he nonetheless has indicated through the Bible and the Tradition of the Church that something is expected from us in return for this free gift. I confess that I sometimes have a problem with the concept of a free gift offered in exchange for something… it doesn’t sound free does it?! However, it makes more sense in the context of our free choice. If grace was offered without some expectation of a response on our part then we would no longer have the (free) choice to accept it. God loves us too much to take away our free choice.

The Catholic position is (as I understand it, remember I’m no expert either, just a guy who likes to read…), that in order to give us the choice to accept God’s Grace, He expects us to have Faith in the trueness of God and his ability to grant this gift, and we are expected to do good works (as defined by God through the Bible and Tradition of the Church). God’s desire for Faith and Works are attested to in the Bible.

Again, the faith and works are not what merits heaven. But through them we exemplify our choice to accept God’s grace.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Charles:

I may argue that from my point of view either Heaven or purgatory equals a win because in both instances, the ultimate reality for me will be the same (heaven), but that’s a rather minor point. I might also caution you against assuming you can avoid hell through ignorance. You don’t sound ignorant to me!

Thanks, Charles.

Right. Thanks for your caution that it is not a good idea to avoid hell through ignorance. If that were the case, then why evangelize at all? It would be better if no one ever heard of Jesus as the only way to heaven.

My ignorance, at this point, is more a matter of being ignorant about the role good works plays in my receiving God’s grace. My concern is that, if i put trust in my good deeds & Christ’s sacrificial death, i’ll end up in hell. That is what i’ve been taught & what i’m trying to determine is true or not. If my good deeds do contribute to my being saved from hell, then that is where i’m ignorant.

St. Paul writes, for example, that God “…has saved us and called us to a holy life–not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace.” (2 Timothy 1:9). This tells me that i’m not saved from hell by anything good that i’ve done. The Catholic teaching–or my misunderstanding of it–seems to contradict St. Paul.

I’ll appreciate any thoughts you have on this.

 

[Tom]

Socrates4Jesus:

In the quote you gave above, St. Paul writes to the young priest, Timothy: “…but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy…” What he appears to be saying, here, is that i am saved from hell, NOT because i do good things. Rather, i’m saved from hell because of God’s mercy.

Paul writes of work “of the Law”. He is the Apostle of the gentiles, the ongoing argument is over works of the Law, those things required of the Jewish Law. His argument is that one does not to be a Jew first to be saved. No, we don’t need to do works “of the Law” and be a good Jew first, to be saved.

Socrates4Jesus:

However, the other quote of yours shown above seems to say that the good thing we do or that someone does for us (that is getting baptized) is a requirement to be saved.

If you don’t do the things Jesus calls us to do, please don’t tell me you are saved, it’s a lie, and no, you don’t need to prove it to me that you’ve done them, you need to prove it to Him.

 

[Charles]

Socrates4Jesus:

My ignorance, at this point, is more a matter of being ignorant about the role good works plays in my receiving God’s grace. My concern is that, if i put trust in my good deeds & Christ’s sacrificial death, i’ll end up in hell. That is what i’ve been taught & what i’m trying to determine is true or not. If my good deeds do contribute to my being saved from hell, then that is where i’m ignorant.

St. Paul writes, for example, that God “…has saved us and called us to a holy life–not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace.” (2 Timothy 1:9). This tells me that i’m not saved from hell by anything good that i’ve done. The Catholic teaching–or my misunderstanding of it–seems to contradict St. Paul.

Hello again,

I’m not suggesting you put your trust in good deeds as a means to salvation. It is only by the will of God that we can be saved. St. Paul is not saying anything above that contradicts the Catholic teaching on salvation. Note, however, even in the passage you quoted that we are called to a holy life. As I mentioned before God saves us and then asks something of us. I described his request in terms of faith and works, I think Paul is referring to the same thing above. A holy life would include faith and doing good, would it not?

For me the crux of the matter goes back to the idea of a free choice in accepting God’s gift. In what way does God intend for us to manifest that we have in fact made a choice to accept this grace? It seems to me that this holy life he has called us to is our sign of acceptance. If we truly and freely choose to accept God’s grace we will live the holy life St. Paul speaks of.

If there were no alternatives (ie either to accept or reject to live a holy life of faith and works), there would be no choice, if we did not have choice it could be argued that God’s love for us was incomplete. Again, there is nothing in this position to suggest that anything we do earns us passage into Heaven, but it is a way of looking at why God would want anything from us for His grace.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Charles:

…I’m not suggesting you put your trust in good deeds as a means to salvation… A holy life would include faith and doing good, would it not?..It seems to me that this holy life he has called us to is our sign of acceptance. If we truly and freely choose to accept God’s grace we will live the holy life St. Paul speaks of…Again, there is nothing in this position to suggest that anything we do earns us passage into Heaven, but it is a way of looking at why God would want anything from us for His grace.

I agree 100%, but i’m still confused. Please be patient with my slowness in grasping this concept; i think you are helping me get it, but i may need to hear it explained several more times. Sorry. Maybe this is one of the reasons Jesus repeated the same parables & the same actions & the same miracles several times (because his followers were just to stupid to get His point the first time?)

Let me see if i am able to explain how i think the Catholic Church explains how good works fits into the picture of salvation:

1. The good things i do, in & of themselves, do not merit my salvation (merit = earn).
2. It is God’s grace (grace = undeserved love) that saves me from hell.
3. I receive His grace by repenting (repenting = changing my mind) of my life of sin & putting my faith in Him (faith = trusting completely that Jesus’ death paid the price for all my sins).
4. Once i have received God’s grace through repentance & faith i am at that moment heaven bound, but only if i do the good deeds God requires.
5. The good deeds i do help merit (merit = earn) my salvation. However, these good deeds are not my doing but the doing of Christ who gives me the desire & the power to do them.
6. Hence, i am saved not by my own works. Rather i am saved by the works that God Himself (in the person of the Holy Spirit) does in me, & by my repentance, & by my faith. That is, i am not trusting in my own good works; rather, i am trusting in God. Since God is responsible for them (& apart from Him i can do no good thing) i cannot take any credit for them.
7. Therefore salvation cannot be a reward, but a free gift, because even though good works are required these good works are not the work of myself, so i cannot receive them like a wage from God.

Is this what you are trying to say?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Tom:

Paul writes of work “of the Law”. He is the Apostle of the gentiles, the ongoing argument is over works of the Law, those things required of the Jewish Law. His argument is that one does not to be a Jew first to be saved. No, we don’t need to do works “of the Law” and be a good Jew first, to be saved.
If you don’t do the things Jesus calls us to do, please don’t tell me you are saved, it’s a lie, and no, you don’t need to prove it to me that you’ve done them, you need to prove it to Him.

Thanks Tom for being frank with me.

Tell me, please, are not the 10 commandments also part of the Jewish law?

 

[Tom]

Socrates4Jesus:

Thanks Tom for being frank with me.

Thank you for actually communicating. It’s refreshing. I read your last post and it’s real close. To me, personally, I can not imagine not doing works of Christian charity. Every time I see a homeless person my heart breaks, I can’t just pass them by. The words of Jesus haunt me… Whatever you do to the least of my brothers that you do unto me, whatever you don’t do for the least of my brothers that you don’t do for me… It’s not that I feel I must help to “earn” my salvation, I just can’t ignore Jesus. The “works vs. faith” debate has made some believe they need to do nothing at all, just say they believe. It’s so sad, for I fear they will be the ones who Jesus says “I don’t know you”, and that breaks my heart.

Socrates4Jesus:

Tell me, please, are not the 10 commandments also part of the Jewish law?

Yes (and no… LOL) the commandments are part of the Law. Remember the OT is revealed in the NT. The OT dealt with earthly life, the NT deals with spiritual life. Jesus tells us His kingdom is not of this earth.
May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ be with you.
Tom

 

[germys9]

Sorry, I haven’t read all of the posts, but only the last few. Whoever’s asking, I think a good example from Scripture of what the Catholic Church teaches is Ephesians 2:8-10. “For by grace you have been saved by faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.”

Again, Paul is telling the Ephesians that they are not saved by the old law, as the judiasers are trying to tell everyone. In particular, they didn’t have to be circumcised or maintain the dietary laws in order to be saved. Once a person receives that intial grace and has a conversion, they are just before God. But from that point on, the christian is obligated or required to cooperate with that grace, which involves both obedience and charitable works.

 

[rubbersoul]

Sorry, I got bored with people throwing scripture around. I’ve got a question. What is so scary about sacraficing for the Lord with the gifts that the Catholic church has given us. I mean, these guys have been praying about this stuff for 2000 years!! Is it too hard for some to take?

I haven’t studied philosophy or the like, so please do not throw me these philisophical arguments. I am a simple person, and I believe the Lord includes even the simple in his plans. I am Catholic and understand that I should pick up my cross and follow Christ. That is the message that continues to stick in my head. That, in my simpleton understanding, includes confessing my sins to men, recieving the eucharist, standing up to people when I see them sinning, and praying for all.

I stick to the catholic church because they have been studying and refelcting on Jesus message since even before there was a Bible. Period. Where, in simple terms, am I wrong?

 

[germys9]

Ric:

Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
(Acts 16:30-31 ESV)

Ric/Socrates, yes we must believe in Jesus to be saved, but don’t assume that believing in Jesus is as simple as acknowledging what he did for us. Jesus, himself, tells us that being his disciple will require very much. Consider what Jesus, himself, said when someone asked him the same question. Matthew 19:16-19 “Now someone approached him and said, Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life? He answered him, “Why do you ask me about good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, “You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and mother; and you shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
When quoting the Bible, it’s important to know what’s going on around the verse that you quote. You see, believing in Jesus entails a lifetime of discipleship. That’s why Jesus says (Mtthw 7:14) How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.” And then He says (Mtthw 7:21-23) Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, Lord Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name? Then, I will declare to them solemnly, I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers."
Seriously think about it. Do you think that someone who drives out demons in Jesus’ name believes in him. Jesus, himself, makes it very clear, that we must believe and go through him to get to the Father/heaven, but at the same time, reallize that when the Bible says “believe”, that that word encompasses a great deal. (Including believing in the one church that Jesus gave us).

Great Words rubbersoul!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Tom:

Thank you for actually communicating. It’s refreshing. I read your last post and it’s real close. To me, personally, I can not imagine not doing works of Christian charity. Every time I see a homeless person my heart breaks, I can’t just pass them by. The words of Jesus haunt me… Whatever you do to the least of my brothers that you do unto me, whatever you don’t do for the least of my brothers that you don’t do for me… It’s not that I feel I must help to “earn” my salvation, I just can’t ignore Jesus. The “works vs. faith” debate has made some believe they need to do nothing at all, just say they believe. It’s so sad, for I fear they will be the ones who Jesus says “I don’t know you”, and that breaks my heart…

Tom:

I agree; there is too much “easy believe-ism” out there. Somewhere in the New Testament it says that we love because He first loved us (1 John, i think) & also that the love of Christ compels us. When i think of all He did for me, how can i turn my back on Him by turning my back on others? But i do, Christ forgive me, i do more than i like to admit.

I’ve posted this before, but it bears repeating, i’m in NO WAY advocating that i myself, nor anyone else, should think that he may live like the devil & still make it into heaven. Like St. Paul answered to the rhetorical question of why should we not sin more so God’s grace will increase more in our lives: God forbid! It is obvious, as someone just posted, that we are created to do good works that God has prepared in advance for us to do (Ephesians 2:10).

The idea with which i am struggling is (at the risk of my repeating my self) just this: Are we saved by God’s grace + repentance + faith + good works? Or are we saved by God’s grace + repentance + faith & not by good works? I really think this is not just an academic question, but an important one that has eternal implications for me.

As was stated, Ephesians 2:8-9 says, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this is not of yourselves but is the gift of God–NOT BY WORKS so that no one may boast.” So far i have been given two explanations of what St. Paul is getting at here (& elsewhere):

1. St. Paul is not saying we are not required to do good works to be saved from hell; rather, he is saying we are required to do good works. However, we are not required to do all the good works the Jewish people were required to do (e.g. we are not required to get circumcised & abstain from certain foods) to get into heaven.
2. St. Paul is not saying we are not required to do good works to be saved from hell; rather, he is saying we are required to do good works. However, we are not saved by those good works we do apart from the empowerment that the Holy Spirit gives us.

These are two very different explanations that deserve careful consideration. The first explanation i believe i addressed prior to this (either in this discussion thread or the one titled “How do i get to heaven?”) That explanation was that i did not think St. Paul means circumcision & abstaining from pork, etc. when he writes that we are not saved by good works. As evidence for this i pointed to Romans chapter 4 & 5. In chapter 4 he argues that we are saved from hell by our faith & not by good works. In chapter 5 he gives an example of a good work that does not save us from hell, which is the good work of avoiding the sin of coveting (which is, of course, one of the 10 commandments given by Moses). If i’m wrong, here, i won’t mind exploring the idea further.

The second explanation of the meaning of Ephesians chapter 2, verses 8-10 is something i hope someone will help me explore. I guess i’d like to ask this question first: Is our faith in Christ something that we do in our own power without the help of the Holy Spirit? Or is faith, like our good works, something that is impossible to do without God’s help?

Sorry this is taking so long, but the conversation, i believe, will really come to a good end. Thank you so much for helping me work through this all.

God bless!

Christopher

 

[Charles]

Socrates4Jesus:

1. I receive His grace by repenting (repenting = changing my mind) of my life of sin & putting my faith in Him (faith = trusting completely that Jesus’ death paid the price for all my sins).
2. Once i have received God’s grace through repentance & faith i am at that moment heaven bound, but only if i do the good deeds God requires.
3. The good deeds i do help merit (merit = earn) my salvation. However, these good deeds are not my doing but the doing of Christ who gives me the desire & the power to do them.
4. Therefore salvation cannot be a reward, but a free gift, because even though good works are required these good works are not the work of myself, so i cannot receive them like a wage from God.

I hope you don’t mind me editing down to these points for this post. I do think that in general you have a reasonably good grasp of the Catholic position. I do have a couple comments on these points and am of course happy to continue our dialogue for as long as you’d like.

For clarification of point 4 I’d like to re-emphasize that Grace is freely given but the God does ask something of us. In the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) it is stated like this in paragraph 2002:

God’s initiative [to offer this grace, see paragraphs 1998&99] demands man’s free response…

I don’t think it is the good deeds that God demands so much as the good deeds are one of the ways God demands we manifest our acceptance of his gift. This may be a purely semantic difference in what we are both saying but I wanted to mention it again.

In point 3 you mention repenting and putting your faith in God’s gift. I agree but would again, for the sake of clarification, point out that since faith is something we return for this grace, it is itself a “work” of sorts. Faith and Works both are things we do so in that since they are both good works. Repenting would also be a work since it is something we freely choose to do. Do you see how they could all be considered somewhat synonomous with each other?

I’m not sure that your point 5 accurately reflects Catholic doctrine, however it is very close. The CCC describes merit and its relationship with God and man like this:

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of free works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining “the promised inheritance of eternal life.”

Is this the same thing your were saying or does this put more emphasis that even our merits are first and foremost through the grace of God? I also quoted these passages from the CCC to make sure we were on the same sheet of music as regards your point 7 which I think sounds right.

Talk to you later!

 

[Tom]

Socrates4Jesus:

Are we saved by God’s grace + repentance + faith + good works? Or are we saved by God’s grace + repentance + faith & not by good works?

No it’s not an academic question. Since you’re using mathematic signs, I’ll give you “my” equation God’s grace = repentance + faith + good works. In other words if you don’t have repentance, you don’t have God’s grace, if you don’t have faith you don’t have God’s grace, if you don’t have good works you don’t have God’s grace. You have to have them all. Which is my problem with all of the “solas” they are all lacking, we’re looking for the “drive thru” religion. Tell me the one thing I must do, Jesus answered the question. It isn’t any “one” thing. God’s grace includes them all, and then some… LOL

Socrates4Jesus:

As was stated, Ephesians 2:8-9 says, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this is not of yourselves but is the gift of God–NOT BY WORKS so that no one may boast.” So far I have been given two explanations of what

St. Paul is getting at here (& elsewhere): First of all, Paul is referring to work “of the Law” in the first part of the verse. As I said earlier works of the Law are those things required by the Jewish Law, circumcision, diet, cleansing, etc. then he refers to “good” works. Works of Christian charity are not works “of the Law”. Same term for two entirely different things. Most, if not all, of Paul’s writings refer to works “of the Law” when reading them do not take these “works” out of context.

Socrates4Jesus:

St. Paul is not saying we are not required to do good works to be saved from hell; rather, he is saying we are required to do good works. However, we are not required to do all **the good works the Jewish people ** were required to do (e.g. we are not required to get circumcised & abstain from certain foods) to get into heaven.

Again we’re confusing works “of the Law” with Christian works of charity.
Two different animals.
Make sense? By the way I’m a pilot; my explanations may be hard to follow. Sorry.
Peace, Tom

 

[Vincent]

1. * ** Christopher hears the Word of God preached to him, through which God moves Christopher’s heart and he responds by repenting of his sins and believing in Jesus Christ. **
   
   If Christopher is a child below the age of reason at this point, his parents and the Church respond for him, just as in the Old Covenant, in which the parents and community responded, in the place of a male infant, to God’s invitation.
   
   “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him” (Acts 2:38).
   • Christopher is brought to the Sacrament of Baptism, in which God gives the grace of justification through faith, and so Christopher begins a life of divine sonship in Jesus Christ, grafted into His Body, the Church.
   Entirely free, the Grace itself of justification, which not only precedes faith and works but makes them possible, cannot be a wage that is earned but only a gift to be received. The Grace itself of justification is bestowed by God in the Sacrament of Baptism.
   
   The Sacrament of Baptism is not a good work we do, for we cannot baptise ourselves. We can only receive baptism through the ministry of God working through others, and this shows that the grace which is bestowed is entirely God’s gift. Infant baptism, in particular, emphasizes the gratuitousness of God’s gift of salvation.
   
   “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God-- not because of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9).
   
   “. . .as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death. . .” (Romans 6:3) and “. . .have put on Christ” (Galatians 3:27).
   • Now that Christopher has been saved for the life of divine sonship in Jesus Christ, God the Holy Spirit produces works of fruitfulness in Christopher.
   As a consequence of being saved, of being grafted into the Vine who is Christ, the Grace God gives bears fruit. The fruit does not cause the life of salvation to begin, but is always the result of already having been brought by God into the life of salvation:
   
   “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing” (John 15:5).
   
   “. . .as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (1 Corinthians 3:12-13).
   
   “. . .we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (Ephesians 2:10).
   • God is pleased by Christopher faith working in love, and He rewards these works of fruitfulness with grace upon grace— an even deeper life of salvation, which he first received at the moment of Baptism.
   In the sense that Christopher’s works of fruitfulness are made fitting by God who works in him, and is rewarded by God with an even more profound participation in the life of grace, Christopher is said to “merit” eternal life. Yet, the “merit” of good works is not a wage Christopher earns, but is rather a gift that is given by God to his faithful sons in Jesus Christ, who— by, in and through grace— bear works of love in their Father’s Vineyard.
   
   “Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you” (Matthew 8:12).
   
   “For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. . . .” (Romans 2:6).
   
   “. . . .he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart” (Galatians 6:6-10).

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Thanks Tom & Charles.

I think i’ll need some time to absorb what you two are saying before i am sure i understand & agree. Thanks for your patience.

Tom: When you say you are a pilot, is that a Catholic term or do you mean you fly airplanes?

 

[Tom]

Soc, I’m a pilot as in flying, helicopters and airplanes, so I’m no expert in the faith, just an old Catholic.
Vincent, that was beautiful.
Charles and Vincent sound much more “educated” in the faith. If we can help Soc, we’re here for you.
May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, be with you
Tom

 

[Charles]

Take your time soc. Vincent, that was quite a post! My initial impression was to be quite impressed, but I admit its going to take me a while to absorb it all. Did that come from any particular source?

Please note, I just saw in my last posting where I quoted paragraph 2008 of the CCC I erroneously typed in “free works”. It should in fact read “good works”.

 

[Vincent]

Tom, Charles: Thanks. I need to tighten up my post a bit, though.

Much of it, materially speaking, can be found in the writings of Fr. William Most and Jimmy Akin, as well as in Session Six of the Council of Trent.

I’ve found the following paper to be helpful as well:

“Reversing Babel: A Calvinist Reading of the Tridentine Doctrine of Merit” PDF /
(http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:luBTgHDTHrYJ:www.paxchurch.com/Imported%2520Writings/Reversing%2520Babel%2520(Final).pdf+reversing+babel&hl=en)]