Ticket to Heaven

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Charles:
Insofar as some action is needed on our part to accept God’s grace then I would agree with your point B. I also agree that the Catholic position is that salvation comes from grace alone, and that no believer should presume to merit Heaven through their good works. And, yes, even the merit we do receive (to become heirs) from our good works comes ultimately from God so even that is not of our own doing.
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Then, you would agree that the consensus here is also that if i were to continuously & deliberately & knowingly not obey a command Jesus has for me, then i may certainly be in danger of hell? To show such rebellion as to refuse to submit to Him, & constantly reject His grace, might have this consequence, would it not?
 
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Socrates4Jesus:
Then, you would agree that the consensus here is also that if i were to continuously & deliberately & knowingly not obey a command Jesus has for me, then i may certainly be in danger of hell? To show such rebellion as to refuse to submit to Him, & constantly reject His grace, might have this consequence, would it not?
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S4J,

IMHO, what you just described here, is mortal sin.
Look at Hebrews 10:26 - “For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,”

What is the sacrifice for sin which is removed? It’s Christ’s sacrifice. That leaves us standing in judgement alone, with no hope of heaven. I hope that answers your question.

God Bless.
 
Yes, Quisp, we agree with God & the writer of the letter to the Hebrews that there is no hope for such a person.

At this point, i think it will be helpful to summarize the questions i’ve been asking in the most recent posts & some of the answers, then i’d like to ask one more question. What follows are the questions (Q) & the answers (A).

Q. Then, is this the Catholic teaching? i am saved from hell by grace through repentance & trusting Christ as my own Lord and Savior, & ALSO by trusting Him (& taking action to cooperate with Him) to produce in me a holy life of faith & good works that will somehow help achieve my entrance into eternity with Him.

A. Insofar as some action is needed on our part to accept God’s grace then I would agree with your point B. I also agree that the Catholic position is that salvation comes from grace alone, and that no believer should presume to merit Heaven through their good works.

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Q. So would you say, then, that i should do my best to obey every command to which Jesus expects me to submit?

A. Yes! That’s the power of God’s grace and why the saints throughout history are truly our heros - they did these things

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Q. But what about those who have not been confirmed as saints, the imperfect people like myself? Should…you & i try to obey every command our Lord Jesus gives to us?

A. Yes, I believe that you should do your best to obey Jesus… I would also say He is able to give you (and me) the power to handle even the toughies!
 
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Q. I believe you are all saying, then, that a person who knows a command of Jesus yet willfully continues to disobey that command:
  • Does not know Christ
  • Lies if he says he does know Christ
  • Is not righteous
  • Is not born of God
  • Does not have faith in Christ
A. Your points on obedience do indeed summarize the consensus of Catholics in this thread.

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Q. Then, you would agree that the consensus here is also that if i were to continuously & deliberately & knowingly not obey a command Jesus has for me, then i may certainly be in danger of hell?

A. what you just described here, is mortal sin. Look at Hebrews 10:26 - “For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,” What is the sacrifice for sin which is removed? It’s Christ’s sacrifice. That leaves us standing in judgment alone, with no hope of heaven.

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Now i’d like to ask that we return to Christ’s commands given to Catholics during His sermon on the mount. There is one command that He gives, namely:

“…be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew chapter 5, verse 48 of the New American Bible)

And i’d like to ask everyone who reads this post to answer this question to herself or himself: “Have i ever obeyed this command?” If you have, please explain how.
 
Socrates4Jesus

*It seems you are all in agreement that all of us should obey every command of Jesus, no matter how difficult. …Yet, His commands are not a burden, for he gives us the power to obey. In a real way, He makes the impossible, possible. *
Is this what you are all saying?

You are on the right track.

For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
Matt. 16:25

C.S. Lewis contrasts the man that is trying to try save his life by being good, with the man that gives up his life in order to save it.

The more you obey your conscience, the more it will demand of you. And your natural self, which is thus being starved and hampered and worried at every turn, will get angrier and angrier. In the end, you will either give up tying or else become one of those people who, as they say, “live for others” but always in a discontented, grumbling way – always wondering why the others do not notice it more and always making a martyr of yourself. And once you have become that you will be a far greater pest to anyone who has to live with you that you would ever have been if you had remained frankly selfish.

The Christian way is different: harder, and easier. Christ says. “Give me your All. I don’t want so much of your time and so much of your work: I want You. I have not come to torment the natural self, but to kill it. No half-measures are any good. I don’t want to cut off a branch here and a branch there, I want to have the whole tree down. I don’t want to drill the tooth, or crown it, or stop it, but to have it out. Hand over the whole natural self, all the desires which you think innocent as well as the ones you thing wicked – the whole outfit. I will give you a new self instead. In fact, I will give you Myself: my own will shall become yours.”

Both harder and easier than what we are all trying to do. You have noticed, I expect, that Christ Himself sometimes describes the Christian way as very hard, sometimes as easy. He says, ”Take up your Cross” – in other words, it is like going to be beaten to death in a concentration camp. Next minute he says, “My yoke is easy and my burden is light”. He means both. …

Jesus never talked vague, idealistic gas. When he said “Be perfect” He meant it. He meant that we must go in for the full treatment. It is hard; but the sort of compromise we are all hankering after is harder – in fact, it is impossible. It may be hard for an egg to turn into a bird: it would be a jolly sight harder for it to learn to fly while remaining an egg. We are like eggs at present. And you cannot go on indefinitely being an ordinary, decent egg. We must be hatched or go bad. … This is the whole of Christianity. There is nothing else.

Mere Christianity, “Is Christianity Hard or Easy?”
 
Socrates4Jesus

Now i’d like to ask that we return to Christ’s commands given to Catholics during His sermon on the mount. There is one command that He gives, namely: “…be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew chapter 5, verse 48 of the New American Bible) And i’d like to ask everyone who reads this post to answer this question to herself or himself: “Have i ever obeyed this command?” If you have, please explain how.

The Catholic Church has a lot to say about Christian perfection. Christian perfection is what we must be seeking in our lives at all times. A person that thinks that saving faith is mere intellectual assent to propositons about Jesus and his mission does not have saving faith. Saving faith is total trust in God, a belief that God really will give us the grace we need to achieve Christian perfection.

“My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
2 Cor. 12:9

As C.S. Lewis notes, Christianity is not so much about trying to be a good egg, it is about hatching from the egg and becoming a bird that can fly. Lewis is really talking about our conversion from ordinary good eggs into children of God that can love as Jesus loves – i.e. loving without condition, loving even our enemies.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

**THE CONVERSION OF THE BAPTIZED

1427** Jesus calls to conversion. This call is an essential part of the proclamation of the kingdom: “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel.” In the Church’s preaching this call is addressed first to those who do not yet know Christ and his Gospel. Also, Baptism is the principal place for the first and fundamental conversion. It is by faith in the Gospel and by Baptism that one renounces evil and gains salvation, that is, the forgiveness of all sins and the gift of new life.

1428 Christ’s call to conversion continues to resound in the lives of Christians. This **second conversion ** is an uninterrupted task for the whole Church who, “clasping sinners to her bosom, [is] at once holy and always in need of purification, [and] follows constantly the path of penance and renewal.” This endeavor of conversion is not just a human work. It is the movement of a “contrite heart,” drawn and moved by grace to respond to the merciful love of God who loved us first.
 
Matt16_18:

Yes, i understand, but have you ever obeyed Jesus’ command given in Matthew 5:48?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
"…be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5: 48 New American Bible)

…answer this question…: “Have i ever obeyed this command?” If you have, please explain how.
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Good question. I guess I’d first like to know how you would define perfection, but I’ll go ahead and address the issue from my understanding first.

First, I have always been concerned with using single verses as quotes to make a point. Modern translations (including the NAB which you used) try to use english conventions of sentences and paragraphs and these do not always match up to verses. In this case Matthew 5:48 is a part of a larger paragraph in the NAB (5:43-48) that admonishes us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us.

Is Christ defining perfection as loving one’s enemies and praying for those who have persecuted us? In that case I can answer your question yes. Although, I have clearly admitted to having trouble with this command (I’ve sinned) I have had moments and even longer periods of time where I was perfectly at peace with this command. Most often and most completely after the Sacrament of Reconciliation, where I was able to talk out my feelings, here a gentle admonishment and word of encouragement, and spend time in prayer doing a pennance. Again, if this is your definition then I’d say the answer is yes.

Is Christ more generally saying that perfection is doing exactly what God wants us to do? If so then, while I admit to messing up a lot, I can still answer yes I have obeyed this command. I had myself and my family Baptized according to church Tradition. Is there more I could have done to obey the command to be Baptized? I don’t think so, so I guess that was perfect obeyance. I have received the Sacrament of Reconciliation for mortal sin and try to go regularly for venial sin. Sinning is obviously not perfection but is there more I am to do, according to Tradition, than seek and ask for forgiveness? Not that I know of so I assume I am doing exactly what God wants. Again according to this use of the word Perfect, I am obeying God.

Third, I note that perfection is used in this way only in this verse and in Matt 19:21 If you read Matt 19:21-26 you see what I think is a clearer explanation of perfection. Jesus acknowledges we are to be perfect but that without God it is impossible. I don’t see here a declaration that allows us not to strive for perfection, but rather an acknowledgement that even our perfection will be imperfect.

Finally, the parallel to the original passage in Luke replaces the word “perfect” with “merciful”. Does perfect mean merciful? Again, I have not always shown mercy when I should (I’m afraid I sin a lot), but I have shown mercy. This particular issue is a bit personal for a public forumn but if you define mercy as not exacting from someone that which I legally had a right to, then the answer to your question is still yes.
 
Charles:

Yes, but i think the important question to ask is NOT what i think the word perfect means, but what does Jesus mean by the word perfect. Let me quote Him once more from the same popular, Catholic translation of the Bible:

“…be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48, New American Bible).

The Greek word that the Apostle Matthew used was “teleios” which i believe, in this context, means absolute perfection. However, one does not have to understand Greek to know that this is what Jesus means, for he says:

“…be perfect, JUST AS YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER is perfect.” (emphasis added)

Isn’t He saying, then, be as perfect as God? And i hope it is not to much for me to ask: Is this a command you personally have ever obeyed?
 
Socrates4u
  • Yes, i understand, but have you ever obeyed Jesus’ command given in Matthew 5:48?*
Why do you ask such a question? The standard of perfection that we are to meet is given to us by Jesus: we are all told that we must be perfect, as our heavenly Father is perfect. A high standard of perfection indeed!

I am not the standard of perfection, nor is any mere man, and it would be wrong to compare yourself to me, or to any man. Jesus is the example of the perfect man that meets the standard of perfection that he gave.

Baptism begins us on the conversion procees to become little Christs living in the world. It is only through Jesus that we will achieve Christian perfection. Through Baptism we become partakers in the divine life of God, and it is by allowing that divine life to increase in us that we become perfect. As John the Baptist rightly says, “He must increase, but I must decrease." (Jn:3:30)

I am not trying to evade your answer about whether I have ever achieved perfection, or if I have ever acted perfectly in a single act of charity even once in my life.

The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately corrupt;
who can understand it?
Jer. 17:9

Judgement about perfection, is a judgement about matters of the heart, and that judgement belongs to God alone. My heart is deceitful, and I can easily deceive my self about the state of grace that I am in. I can deceive myself to the degree to which I have achieved Christian perfection. That is why the Cathechism says this:

2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.

You are asking Catholics if they have ever been perfect. It is a question that God alone can answer.
 
Matt16_8:

I’m really not the one raising the question, rather, Jesus is by His command:

“…be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Otherwise, i completely agree with you that Jesus Himself is the standard of perfection; He lived the perfect life you or i could never live! Since you & i know more of Him than we do of the Father (or perhaps, we know the Father when we know Jesus), i suppose the question Jesus is also asking you & i is:

“Are you as perfect as I myself am?”

I hope you won’t think my asking the same question is harsh. Honestly, Matt16, are you? Can anyone, while He is still in sinful, un-resurrected, human flesh, ever be?
 
Socrates4U
  • The Greek word that the Apostle Matthew used was “teleios” which i believe, in this context, means absolute perfection. However, one does not have to understand Greek to know that this is what Jesus means, for he says: “…be perfect, JUST AS YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER IS PERFECT.” (emphasis added)
Isn’t He saying, then, be as perfect as God?*

Yes, that is exactly what he is saying. God is love, and love became incarnate in this world. We are to become God’s love in the world too.

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
Jn. 13:34

CCC 1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

CCC 1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself.

Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
Matt. 16:24-25
 
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Socrates4Jesus:
Hey,

Does anyone know what i have to do to get into heaven?
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Yes, of course-- it’s clearly in the Bible:

**1 John 5
**11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

and

**John 1
**12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God–

…Bernie :dancing:
www.FreeGoodNews.com
 
Socrates4U

Otherwise, i completely agree with you that Jesus Himself is the standard of perfection; He lived the perfect life you or i could never live!

You have missed the message of the Gospel completely if you think that we cannot become perfect. We are born children of the Fall, and as children of the Fall we can never even do what our conscience demands of us. We are born in bondage to sin. That is why we must be born again and become children of God, so that we can do what our conscience demands of us – that and more, much more. Saving faith is the belief that we can become perfect, and that God will give us the sufficient grace that we need to achieve that perfection.

Protestants often say that we are all sinners and there is nothing that can be done about that! Huh? It makes me want to throw up my hands in frustration when I hear such nonsense. Yes, we are all sinners in need of a savior. But that is exactly why Jesus came on earth - to give us his life so that we can be free from our bondage to sin.

The fundamentalist Protestants that teach easy believism are teaching a false Gospel. They will tell you that all you have to do is give intellectual assent that Jesus died to give us eternal life, and then BAM – instant eternal security. Giving our intellectual assent to the doctrines of Christianity is, of course, a good thing. But giving that intellectual assent isn’t having saving faith. Saving faith is not just talking the talk - it is also walking the walk. Saving faith and obedience to God cannot be separated, and that is exactly what so many fundamentalist and Evangelical Protestants try to do. Many Protestants assert that justification can be separated from sanctification, and they are preaching a false gospel when they do.

But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
James 1:22

But you yourselves wrong and defraud, and that even your own brethren. Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor. 6:8-10
 
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Matt16_18:
Yes, that is exactly what he is saying. God is love, and love became incarnate in this world. We are to become God’s love in the world too.
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True, you & i are to strive to be more & more like God & to do so not by our own might, nor by our own power, but by His Spirit.

However, that is not what Jesus is saying here, is it?

He does not command you & i to “become perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”

Instead, he says, “BE [as in right now] perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect.”

So, what do you think? Is it possible for you or i to be, at this very moment, as perfect as He is? I’m not being facetious; i sincerely want to know.
 
Socrates4U

I hope you won’t think my asking the same question is harsh. Honestly, Matt16, are you?

No, I don’t think that your question is harsh. It is simply a question that I cannot answer because it would require me to judge my heart. That is a judgement that only God can make. No one can answer the question that you are asking but God.
  • Can anyone, while He is still in sinful, un-resurrected, human flesh, ever be?*
I don’t think that you understand what “flesh” means as it is used in the New Testament. Let us look at John chapter 3:

“Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I told you, ‘You must be born from above.’ The wind blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
John 3:5-8

Jesus is contrasting natural childbirth to being born from above through water and Spirit. When a woman gives birth to a baby, is she giving birth to a body alone? No, not unless she is giving birth to a stillborn baby - a corpse of a baby. What is born of the flesh is a human being in a state of original sin, a living body-soul in need of salvation. That which is born of the flesh is a baby, and the baby needs to be born again through water and Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. The water and Spirit that Jesus talks about is the Sacrament of Baptism. The baby receives freedom from original sin and a partaking in the divine life of the God by Baptism. The water poured over the baby’s head in the Sacrament of Baptism brings about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the soul of the baby - the baby is born from above.

Baptistm doesn’t just sanctify the human spirit of the baby; Baptism sanctifies the whole baby - the body as well as the soul is sanctified by Baptism. That is why Paul says that our bodies of are the Temples of the Holy Spirit, and that Christian men that are having sex with whores are defiling their temples, and sinning against their own sanctified bodies.

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I therefore take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who joins himself to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two shall become one flesh.” But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Shun immorality. Every other sin which a man commits is outside the body; but the immoral man sins against his own body.
1Cor. 6:15-18

more …
 
Continued …

The point to all this? Christians don’t have “sinful human flesh”. No, Christans living in a state of grace have bodies that have become sanctified temples of the Holy Spirit. Of course, a Christian can choose to defile their temples with sins against the flesh, and if they do that, their abominations will leave their temples desolate – uninhabited by God.

If any one destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him.
1 Cor. 3:17

Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor. 6:8-10
 
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Socrates4Jesus:
So, what do you think? Is it possible for you or i to be, at this very moment, as perfect as He is? I’m not being facetious; i sincerely want to know.
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I’m still not willing to concede that a verse, taken away from its context is a good way to address issues of salvation. There are serious contextual issues I addressed earlier which lead me to believe that trying to pigeon hole this verse does no credit to God. Can you honestly assure me that the perfection Jesus is seeking does not refer to forgiving our enemies and those who persecute us? That it is not asking us to be merciful as God is merciful? If you can assure me of this then by whose authority?

But, for the sake of argument let me answer your question as stated. Have I ever been equal in perfection to God? I would have to say the answer is no. If I say yes then my entire argument of the last several weeks falls apart. Since I’m pretty sure my argument is a fairly good laymens attempt to explain Catholic Tradition on this matter then it shouldn’t fall apart… 😉

I say we need grace from God to be saved. If I am perfect what need have I of grace?

I say this grace is freely given. If I am perfect why do I need a gift from God?

I say that even the merits we earn through living a holy life ultimately derive from God. If I am perfect why would I give credit for anything to God?

If God commands me to do something and I don’t do it then what does that mean? It means I am a sinner (can’t argue with that!). Now what do I do? Confess my sins and continue to thank God that it is by Grace that I am saved. And, of course, continue to live a holy life so that I can maintain that state of Grace to the day I die.

IF your contextual use of this verse is how Christ intended us to understand it, then you make a fairly good argument that most if not all of us are going to have to spend some time in the cleansing fire of purgatory!

Matt,

Great posts! I have really enjoyed all of the ones you posted today!

Chris,

I do take your gentle admonition seriously enough to bring this up with my confessor the next time I receive the sacrament of reconciliation. I sincerely do appreciate people who care enough to alert us to potential sin in our life!
 
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Matt16_18:
The point to all this? Christians don’t have “sinful human flesh”.
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I think St. John disagrees:

“If we say, ‘We are without sin,’ we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8)
 
Socrates4U

Instead, he says, “BE [as in right now] perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect.” So, what do you think? Is it possible for you or i to be, at this very moment, as perfect as He is?

If Jesus told us to be perfect, then it must be possible.

I can go to confession and have all my sins forgiven - even the mortal sins that leave my temple desolate. I can go to Mass without unforgiven mortal sin on my soul and sincerely ask for forgiveness during the Confiteor (I confess to almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned …). If I am sincere in my confession of sins during the Confiteor, all my venial sins will be forgiven at that moment, and I will be a sanctified temple without spot or stain that is about to receive Jesus Christ, body, blood, soul and divinity into my temple. When God the Father looks at me after I receive the Eucharist, is he looking at what he has made perfect through the sacrifice of his Son? You bet – God the Father isn’t looking just at me, God the Father is also beholding the glory of only begotten Son!

… when a man turns to the Lord the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
2 Cor. 3:16-18
 
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