Tim Tebow's dad wants to convert Catholics in the Philippines?

[AndyP2010]

Look I in no way doubt the devotion of devout Catholics in the Philippines but we are in no place to be complacent. Europe had over 1000 years of inculturation of the Church into society at the start of the reformation. The faith had built the great cathedrals and the Church was part of the power structure of the continent. Yet Christian unity was destroyed within a generation. We have the fullness of the truth and we haven’t taught it well. Luther was an Augustinian monk who didn’t know his faith well. He didn’t at first rebel against what the Church taught so much as what he thought the Church taught. Simply inculturation of the faith into a society doesn’t work, 500 years of protestantism should have taught us that. The Church for the most part is the same everywhere. Each parish has a group of laity who are very active. Most of the doers know their faith well if sometimes incompletely. A small number of pew sitters who know their faith but for a variety of reasons aren’t active. The majority are regular attendees who don’t know their faith all that well or don’t go very regularly at all and don’t know their faith who are just there to get their kids the sacraments. We need to evangelize our own because all those Catholics who don’t no their faith are going to continue to be easy pickings for the Bob Tebows of the world. When we evangelize our own the Bob Tebows won’t be a problem any more they will be converts. Look what happened to Tim Staples and his family when he met one Catholic who not only knew his faith but could defend it.

 

[CopticChristian]

So what are you saying? That the Filipinos should be satisfied with their medical system as is? Or is it only Catholics and the Navy who should be able to build hospitals?

I know of two Protestant Filipinos. They were members of our church (of course, they had immigrated to the US). Very nice people. The grandmother was Catholic and went to the local Catholic Church, but this couple was Pentecostal. I also know there is at least one Protestant church in that country, the one that my church helped build there. Don’t ask me where.

China, Honduras, Fillipinos, Mexico, and other countries have medical systems…now consider the USA…we have a medical system…we have Medicare, Medical, private insurance…a MRI and CT scanner on every block…and sometimes we marvel at the systems in other countries…look at how difficult it is to see changes in the systems in our own country…

Yesterday…a team from Switzerland landed in Mississippi and spent a week at a local hospital bringing high tech equipment and expertise not before seen…

Well that did not happen but imagine how the country would react and the news would report that and how little that would do to change our system…

Our small minded Western approach to changing a country is part and parcel of a bigger problem…Tebow cannot change the government…nor can any of these organizations…they welcome charity…charity isn’t going to make the changes you believe by your comment that their satisfaction will be addressed by Tebow or anybody like that…

These countries welcome outsiders for charity…I have been there for weeks at a time…Operation Smile, Operation Rainbow, Interplast, COAD/San Diego…I have travelled with them…I speak from experience with these groups and travel to countries that are underdeveloped…

I suggest you provide me evidence of one country changed by any Protestant missionary and then rethink this.

 

[4Squarebaby]

What “Gospel” are the Catholics not preaching?

Its not so much a matter of not being preached but the parent who shows up at church for the baptism of a child as a pre party and doesn’t return until the next child is born. The nominal, cafeteria, or whatever name you want to give that population while not 65 million they do exist.

 

[Filii_Dei]

jonbhorton;8820432:

What Gospel could they give them which they have not already heard?

How do you know they have actually heard the gospel? They might have been baptized Catholic, but you can’t assume they’ve been taught much about their faith. That is one of the reasons you guys are losing people in these parts of the world. The Protestants are not successfully evangelizing faithful Catholics. They are evangelizing those that for whatever reason have little connection to the Catholic Church.

The only way to convert them away from the Catholic faith would be to change the Gospel in a manner which makes the Protestant Evangelical “Gospel” more attractive. That’s not preaching the Gospel, it’s called preaching a different gospel… now where have I heard that

before?

Or maybe they offer them a Christian faith that is meaningful and transformative, something that, again for whatever reason, they have not found in the Catholic Church.

If they were preaching the same Gospel, the locals would say, “yeah, we already know”.

Or maybe the problem is that some of the locals don’t really know, and it takes people from outside the Catholic culture to come in and not take these people for granted.

That Protestants are going to traditionally Catholic countries means only one thing: they do not believe Catholics preach the true Gospel.

Could be. I’m sure there are Protestants who do believe that. But simply because a Protestant goes to a Catholic country and preaches the Gospel does not mean that he assumes that Catholicism does not preach the Gospel. It just means that Protestants and Catholics have a different idea as to what membership in a particular church means. Many Protestants recognize the Catholic Church as Christian, but they don’t recognize that simply being Catholic means you’ve been converted. It’s about conversion of life for Protestants, and if there are Catholics who for whatever reason do not have any connection to their Catholic faith then they need to be reached with the Gospel.

That Bob Tebow is misrepresenting the numbers, i.e. 75% of Filipinos have never heard the Gospel, despite 10% being Protestant, 80% Catholic, 5% bumping their head on the floor towards Mecca, and 5% of some other belief system… means, either he sucks at math or he is intentionally going after Catholics to convert them.

Yes, it could be both and it could be that he is deliberately exaggerating the numbers so people who hear him will think the Philippines is a huge mission field and will support his work.

The only reason for this is one of two things, or both:

He thinks the Catholic Church doesn’t preach the Gospel and he must reach those poor lost souls lest the burn in the fiery hell of Catholicism.

or

He is seeking to preach his own Gospel.

That is a possibility

If he believed the Catholic Church preaches the correct Gospel, there is no need for his presence. But in fact, he is outright lying about the numbers which only leads me to one of the 3 possibilities: both are the case.

I agree, the numbers are bogus. But for your first sentence to be true, you have to assume that 1) The Catholic Church is such an amazing organization that they can guarantee 100% effectiveness in reaching Filipinos with the Gospel. 2) You would also have to assume that all of the Filipino Catholics are faithful Catholics, that they believe what the Church believes, and they did what the Church said to do. If that were the case, then the Philippines should be heaven on earth.

My friend, I appreciate you giving Bob Tebow the benefit of the doubt but his intentions may not be that altruistic.

Yes, it would be nice to think that Bob Tebow is actually augmenting the Church in helping lapsed Catholics rediscover their faith, but you and I know that this is not what Bob Tebow truly has in mind. If that were the case, and he actually wishes to help the Church uphold the faith amongst existing Catholics, then he would have become a Catholic missionary, but he is not.

And yet, despite there being more than a hundred countries out there that have yet to be converted, Bob Tebow chooses a country where the population is almost all Catholic and has already heard the fullness of the Gospel for three long centuries, long before Bob Tebow’s parents or his grandparents were even conceived. The only logical reason is that he wishes to attract Catholics who are wavering in their faith and turn them over to his cause. He wishes to exploit their great hunger for Our Saviour to convince them that they are not giving Him the greatest glory possible. In fact, he even creates a club in his name (vanity is a sin of pride) and boasts about the progress he’s made in “preaching the Gospel” (which suggests that the Catholic Church does not preach the Gospel, hm?).

Please don’t misconstrue this as a showdown between Protestantism and Catholicism. This is nothing of the sort. However, when a particular person possesses some rather suspicious and offensive views about Catholics, it seems only appropriate that it would attract a great deal of attention.

I think it’s sad that he can get away with it because the Catholic Church maintains a principle of compassion and tolerance towards her critics, enduring their continued persecution and insult. If he tried that in Russia, we should pray that he doesn’t suddenly disappear and his accounts mysteriously bleed dry…

I jest! Don’t lynch me, my Russian brothers.

 

[_Abyssinia]

I hate it when people want to go and convert Catholics from their faith to Protestantism.

Are their active Protestants trying to convert people from Catholicism in the Philippines and Africa, Latin America?

 

[Nigel7]

We certainly know what his dad thinks of Catholics in the Philippines:

More…
btea.org/theplan.asp

Oh do you?? I seriously doubt that.

You are presumptuous.

Nothing on that website says anything about Tim Tebow’s dad wanting to convert Catholics in the Philippines.

What are you doing for those people in need? I’ll bet you do absolutely nothing. Yet you slander those who help people in need and are spreading the gospel. :tsktsk:

 

[4Squarebaby]

I hate it when people want to go and convert Catholics from their faith to Protestantism.

Are their active Protestants trying to convert people from Catholicism in the Philippines and Africa, Latin America?

Of course there are just as there are faithful Catholics, Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Ingelsia Ni Cristo… attempting to bring Protestant Christians to what they see as God’s full and true path.

 

[CopticChristian]

Oh do you?? I seriously doubt that.

You are presumptuous.

Nothing on that website says anything about Tim Tebow’s dad wanting to convert Catholics in the Philippines.

What are you doing for those people in need? I’ll bet you do absolutely nothing. Yet you slander those who help people in need and are spreading the gospel. :tsktsk:

Ok,

You have a point…the Phillipines has 94 million people. 80% of the population is Catholic. If Tebow takes a boat to the Phillipines travelling at 100 miles an hour from San Francisco, making no stops along the way and arrives within a week…how many people in the Phillipines are Catholic if 80% of 94 million are Catholic…it would appear that 77.6 million are Catholic, leaving 18 million that have not heard the gospel…if Tebow believes that 86 million have not heard the gospel…what 8 million have not heard the Gospel and what Gospel is it?

Now if Tebow forgot his calculator and decides to fly back to San Francisco, how long will it take Tebow to drive to Colorado to see his son throw a Hail Mary pass?

Now I have been to the Phillipines many times and I sure would rest easy knowing that what is being spread is true…since you have confidence and don’t want people to slander…tell me the gospel as you understand so I can know that all is well…

I believe the gospel to be…

I believe that the way people engage in making this gospel become part of their life is…

Just tell me what it is that is being spread…I just want to know if Paul will find it as I see it,there is only one Gospel…for there is no other Gospel…tell me…so I can reast easy.

 

[Nigel7]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM

 

[CopticChristian]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM

Lets look at this two ways…

1. Paul says that the Gentiles who have no law are a law unto themselves and are circumcised of the heart and they are God’s people…

So let’s say that we have a community of people that know for certain who God is, what God wants, what is best for the people and they live and practice that…on the outskirts of town there are many communities that do just fine keeping the moral law and are darn good citizens…

Then let’s say that the community that has all the right stuff starts getting called and knocks on the door by the people on the outskirts of town to do as they do and stop doing all the going to Church, spending team reading their spiritual books and say that all you have to do is just do what they do because they have a moral community and what the outskirts folks are doing works and so the community should adopt their pattern of life…they all have the same rewards…

Does the community say…OK…you guys are getting it and since we know you are getting it and we are doing all this other stuff and we both get it the same…even though we know God wants us to do this…since you guys on the outskirts are just like us…let us abandon our lives as we know it and give up what we know God wants us to do because you guys are doing just fine.

Or

Does the community say…we understand that you folks on the outskirts are doing fine and that you too have found some truths…we understand that you have been instruments of good and helped many but did you know that what you are doing isn’t all that God has in mind for you…let us show you what God wants…you can live on the outskirts and do as you wish just don’t try to import what you believe to be adequate into our community that is sufficient and pleasing to God…

 

[Bran_Stark]

I thought, protestants never go to the Islam or pagan countries, they always go to Catholic countries, and twist the gospel. It’s easier that way, piggybacking off our work.

Well if they do go to Islamic countries, they tend to get killed. But Catholics are too nice for that sort of stuff. So maybe you can take it as a sort of compliment.

 

[katherine2001]

Thank you. This is precisly why I asked for Filipino Catholics to chime in. This is their country. To hear some arrogant Baptist preacher announce 65 million in your country have “never heard the Gospel”, must sound racist as well as anti-Catholic.

I ask for more Filipino Catholics to chime in about their “heathen” country.

Unfortunately, they also love to go to Russia and do the same. Of course, Christianity came to Russia in 988, but, of course, they’ve never heard the Gospel either according to the Evangelical missionaries. They also went to Greece in large numbers when the Summer Olympics were held there in 2004. I sent an email to one of the organizations organizing this to ask them why they are going into a culture that is already Christian to try and convert them and was sent the reply that they weren’t trying to convert Orthodox, they just wanted them to be better Orthodox. I asked them why they didn’t let the priests worry about that instead? I figured either they were lying through their teeth or they were deluded enough to really believe what they are saying. However, you don’t spend the kind of money that they spend and learn the language just so you can make them better Orthodox or Catholics. For one thing, they know nothing about these faiths themselves. What little they do learn is just so they can try to convert themselves. I was Baptist for 25 years and am very aware of what they believe about Orthodoxy and Catholicism and I know that they aren’t interested in making them better Catholics and Orthodox. A lot of them don’t even believe that we are Christians.

 

[JustaServant]

Unfortunately, they also love to go to Russia and do the same. Of course, Christianity came to Russia in 988, but, of course, they’ve never heard the Gospel either according to the Evangelical missionaries. They also went to Greece in large numbers when the Summer Olympics were held there in 2004. I sent an email to one of the organizations organizing this to ask them why they are going into a culture that is already Christian to try and convert them and was sent the reply that they weren’t trying to convert Orthodox, they just wanted them to be better Orthodox. I asked them why they didn’t let the priests worry about that instead? I figured either they were lying through their teeth or they were deluded enough to really believe what they are saying. However, you don’t spend the kind of money that they spend and learn the language just so you can make them better Orthodox or Catholics. For one thing, they know nothing about these faiths themselves. What little they do learn is just so they can try to convert themselves. I was Baptist for 25 years and am very aware of what they believe about Orthodoxy and Catholicism and I know that they aren’t interested in making them better Catholics and Orthodox. A lot of them don’t even believe that we are Christians.

When I was a fundamentalist years ago I remember one preacher refering to the Orthodox Church using words that are not to be used in polite society. Suffice to say it had to do with the “whore” of Babylon.

 

[JustaServant]

Oh do you?? I seriously doubt that.

You are presumptuous.

Nothing on that website says anything about Tim Tebow’s dad wanting to convert Catholics in the Philippines.

What are you doing for those people in need? I’ll bet you do absolutely nothing. Yet you slander those who help people in need and are spreading the gospel. :tsktsk:

Wow dude.
How about we stay on the topic instead of launching personal attacks?

 

[Slinger]

I’m not really sure what all of the uproar is about. This is a man who feels a calling by the Holy Spirit to evangelize to others about the same God Catholics and Protestants both worship. I would assume if someone is already strong in their faith then they would not have an attraction to leaving it. The US is mainly a protestant country but there is not objection to Catholics reaching out to those who are not Catholic. Perhaps there are protestants in the US that say they are “Christian” because that is how they were raised but they have no real connection to Christ. If the Catholic church is a way to lead them to a closer relationship to Christ would you object because this is a generally protestant country?

I’m not sure if I worded this correctly but this thread comes across as being anti-anything that is not Catholic…which is dead wrong. Perhaps the attitude should be more about praying for people and that whatever it takes they are brought closer to the Lord as that would be the Christian attitude.

 

[4Squarebaby]

I’m not really sure what all of the uproar is about. .

There seems to be the attitude that if a nation was once a colony of Spain or France then missionaries should stay away. If the local Catholic priest can not make the case to save a soul then to bad for the unsaved. The other question is the theological disagreement Mr Tebow has with the Catholic Church on exactly what makes one a Christian as evidenced by his 65 million have not heard the gospel remark.

 

[andrewstx]

When he said he was building a hospital in the Philippines I initially thought “why”? It’s a poor country to be sure, but its not like we aren’t already doing that. You know, why not just join in the efforts that are already on-going? Anything else would create opposition and division.

I thought, protestants never go to the Islam or pagan countries, they always go to Catholic countries, and twist the gospel. It’s easier that way, piggybacking off our work.

Reading how they don’t think there are hardly any Christians there says they don’t consider Catholics as Christians. Usually, this leads to very anti-Catholic behavior. Usually.

Apparently the Phillipines has a surplus of Drs and Nurses.
My internologist is Philliino and Catholic.

There are whole floors at Medical Center hosp staffed by nurses from the Phillipines.

Every Christmas I go to Christmas eve Dinner with Phillipinos and before eating we say the rosary as a group.

 

[andrewstx]

I wrote Bob Tebow asking why he can’t evangelise the Muslims and Pagans in the Phillipines instead of proseletyzing the Christians who are already there.

Wel’l see what if any answer I get.

 

[4Squarebaby]

Apparently the Phillipines has a surplus of Drs and Nurses.
My internologist is Philliino and Catholic.

There are whole floors at Medical Center hosp staffed by nurses from the Phillipines.

Every Christmas I go to Christmas eve Dinner with Phillipinos and before eating we say the rosary as a group.

Not of doctors but the nursing schools were working overtime to fill the nursing positions in the West and Arabia. Even doctors went to work as nurses overseas to remit money back to the republic. Now that the local economies in the west have started producing more home grown nurses to fill demand the Philippines has been left with excess nursing graduates needing experience before someone would invest in getting a work visa to get them

 

[ConstantineTG]

Convert the Philippines into evangelicals!!! If the people who live in the Philippines are anything like the Filipino catholics around where I live its not gonna happen. They are some of the most hardcore catholics I’ve met. Good luck buddy. :hypno:

Sadly it is happening. I am very concerned. I’m Filipino, and most people I know are turning up Evangelical. Evangelicals are very aggressive in the Philippines, especially among college and young professional crowd by integrating the “good times” the kids want to be doing all the time with their preaching.