H
Hope1960
Guest
So then, everybody at the LCMS is being duped?
- Status
H
HopkinsReb
Guest
Why is this hard to believe?
N
niceatheist
Guest
I’d say it’s more willful than that. I think most of them know the “tired light” claims are wrong (and in fact, were debunked over sixty years ago, so it’s hardly a new claim). Maybe some are naive enough to buy the claims, so I suppose we could be more charitable and suggest they are misguided.
At any rate, whatever way you lean, “tired light” is not a serious claim, and has not been a serious claim since the 1950s. Even Einstein himself recoiled initially at the idea of an a non-eternal non-steady state universe, which is why he threw the Cosmological Constant in to General Relativity to get rid of what he viewed as problematic if not outright incorrect solutions to his equations. He was a big enough man to admit the Cosmological Constant was in error (calling it “the biggest mistake of my career”), and “tired light” was simply another group of physicists trying to preserve the Steady State model against the growing body of evidence of a finite, expanding universe. Of course, the Steady State model has other big problems as well; such as nucleosynthesis of the initial quantities of hydrogen, helium and lithium in the Universe, and the CMBR which was confirmed in the 1960s. The latter was the final nail in the coffin of the Steady State model.
So really, even the invocation of “tired light” by this group is a misapplication of the problem that it attempted to solve. It had nothing to do with making the universe younger than it looked.
Last edited:
H
Hope1960
Guest
I do know that even the pastor, and another guy on staff who will be joining seminary soon, both admit that they have lots of questions. I think they’re trying to believe all this.
A
AZ42
Guest
This is an appeal to the masses fallacy. Just because a lot of people think something doesn’t mean it is true.
This is a faulty appeal to authority fallacy. A pastor would have studied mostly theology, not science.
H
Hope1960
Guest
Well, it sounds to me, that he has many doubts and questions about this, himself. Maybe he’s just trying to believe what he wants to believe?
Last edited:
N
niceatheist
Guest
I’d like to be charitable. But considering that AiG’s claims have been so frequently debunked, it’s a stretch in my view to simply say “we have lots of questions”. Most of those questions could be answered by reading a number of popular scientific works for laymen which lay out the evidence for a 13.75 billion year old universe.
H
Hope1960
Guest
Since so many here distrust AiG and the pastor gave me a link to it, I’m really starting to have my doubts about this church, now. It’s a shame, though, because I really like it there.
A
ATraveller
Guest
I’m surprised no one who is actually part of the LCMS has commented yet.
Pastors and other LCMS staff are obligated to accept young Earth creationism. Laity aren’t obligated and are free to accept that or theistic evolution and anything in between. That’s the official stance. Some pastors may be more “forceful” on YEC than others. This is one barrier for me in joining a denomination that’s in altar and pulpit fellowship with the LCMS in my search for more traditional and reverent worship that’s not Catholic or Eastern Orthodox and still adheres to the Christian faith.
Last edited:
H
Hope1960
Guest
Do you know of anyone here who is LCMS? If so, send them an invite.
H
HopkinsReb
Guest
@Hodos, are you LCMS?
H
Hodos
Guest
I am, why do you ask?
H
HopkinsReb
Guest
Because this discussion is about LCMS views of the age of the earth.
N
niceatheist
Guest
I think if you’re a right-minded person, and the leadership of your particular church are taking what appear to be absurd, if not outright dishonest views on matters like science, the fact that you are allowed to quietly disagree is going to be pretty cold comfort. My youth was spent in a religious group that held all kinds of silly positions, many of them pretty much cribbed from AiG and its progenitor groups, and I’m afraid I reached a crisis of reason where I could no longer publicly espouse confidence in leaders who so easily spread lies about science and other disciplines and groups (religious or secular), simply because they couldn’t admit their own Scriptural interpretations were, to put it bluntly, completely moronic.Hope1960:
I’m surprised no one who is actually part of the LCMS has commented yet.
Pastors and other LCMS staff are obligated to accept young Earth creationism. Laity aren’t obligated and are free to accept that or theistic evolution and anything in between. That’s the official stance. Some pastors may be more “forceful” on YEC than others. This is one barrier for me in joining a denomination that’s in altar and pulpit fellowship with the LCMS in my search for more traditional and reverent worship that’s not Catholic or Eastern Orthodox and still adheres to the Christian faith.
H
Hodos
Guest
Gotcha, relatively recently there was “much ado about nothing” on a related topic (old earth vs. young earth creationism).
H
Hope1960
Guest
I began this thread because I considered joining the LCMS and some of what they believe about evolution of the universe and humans, I don’t believe. The church is lovely, people warm, welcoming and helpful with my questions but I was told that while I’m welcome to worship there, due to my beliefs, I wouldn’t be able to teach anything there (which I didn’t plan on doing anyway.)
S
STT
Guest
Interesting.
H
Hope1960
Guest
I’ve been keeping my mind open, and have been doing a lot of research and came here to ask how distant starlight can be explained, since I believe we have an old earth and universe…but was trying to learn the other side of this.
H
Hodos
Guest
I could see that in some regions. Like all denominations you have a broad range of persuasions on various issues. The doctrine of creation is extremely important. The older I get, and the more I really see what is going on in the scriptural view of salvation not just of man but of the entire creation, the more I recognize that the doctrine of creation is of fundamental (no pun intended) importance in the Christian faith. So I get where some pastors take a very hard line on young earth vs. old earth creationism. When you really look at the doctrine of creation and how it plays into salvation, if you accept an old earth creation interpretation I personally believe you lose a lot more than you think. I also don’t think that the scientific data for age of the universe is anywhere near as settled as it is made out to be. New discoveries have turned the world of science on its head, and there is plenty left to be discovered. That being said, I don’t think that the creation story is necessarily about the “How” of creation so much as it is about the “Who” of creation, the establishing of material and moral norms for creation. The fall of man though is where a flexible view of the age of the earth starts to get shaky. Personally, as I get older I have made peace with a six day creation because, heck, its God, and when it comes down to it, I absolutely believe what the Bible says about Christ, about the salvation of man, and the redemption of the creation. I don’t believe you have to check your brain at the door though to be in any denomination. I hope that helps.
H
Hodos
Guest
Well, and one of the fundamental assumptions that we make in determining the age of the universe is the constant speed of light. However, I don’t know that that is true under all conditions. The more I understand physics the more I see how intertwined energy, matter, and time are. You mess with one, and the others are impacted.
Last edited:
- Status