B
Bahman
Guest
How? Because they are different. I can distinguish them.
Timeless God cannot know the current time hence cannot sustain the creation
- Status
B
Bahman
Guest
My issue is valid unless you declare that logic is frame-dependent. I mean the logic from God framework couldn’t be different from the one we comprehend.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Yes and all the various moments of time are different.
Physically as it were present to God. Like an apple and an orange and a tomato is to you.
God though does not know things as we know things…and of course God the cause …the creator of all that is.
B
Bahman
Guest
This means that 2+2=5!
B
Bahman
Guest
Ok, cool God has the knowledge of what is past, now and future. How changeless God could know the now if it is changing? This knowledge changes by time.
D
davidv
Guest
The same way that you know there are three separate objects on a table in front of you.
B
Bahman
Guest
Ok, but what is apple, apple represent now, changes by time!
B
Bookcat
Guest
God is not a creature -but the creator.
The “now” is created by God. All that is - is known and created by God.
God is not in time to be bound by time. God knows the whole of all successive moments we experience as time.
Our knowledge yes encounters things and goes with us through time and learns new things etc. but God is not a creature in time.
*
God *does not know things the way we know them!
B
Bahman
Guest
I have heard this before. You apparently don’t put any effort to understand me.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Are you trying to understand?
I
Ignatius
Guest
Unless He Created and controls time.
B
Bookcat
Guest
God does not know the way we know.
You and I come to know an object by encountering it…etc
God’s act of knowledge is not dependent on created beings. They are not the object of the knowledge of God.
It is not that they exist - and then God knows them. The understanding of God is its own object.
(remember God is the creator. of all that exists…)
(these are rather “deep” ideas for which a forum is not the best place to go into them too much - but one can seek out works on the subject such as by Jacques Maritain)
.
D
DCNBILL
Guest
You seem to think that God works from a logical perspective. God created logic as a tool for us to come to some understanding of Him, He is not bound by something He made anymore a carpenter is bound by a chair that he made.
I declare that the abilities that we have received for thought and logic are further below that of Gods than an ants is below ours.
No one has any comprehension whatsoever of the “mind” of God, except that which God has given us through the revelation of our Savior Jesus the Christ.
W
wadramli
Guest
uou want to have some fo what I’m having ?
Okay. one order millet bread with fresh tomatoes , seasonal onions and sesame oil coming up for my deacon friend over there …
bahman , Persian it is if you say so .
what is your gender ?
frankly Bahman you’re not working hard enough. You say god knows all sets of creation then you say creations changes to him . how can it change for him when he knows it all ? there is no change as far as he is concerned because you said he knows it all. Change is only to you who doesn’t know . but for him nothing can change. by your own postulate. in order for change to happen he has to not know it but you said he knows .
let me illustrate . you’re walking and I stick my foot out and trip you . you see my foot stuck out suddenly , too late , you can’t stop , you start falling , you see the ground getting closer. These are changes for you. But to god and according to you he already knows . no new info has been added to his knowledge or subtracted from his knowledge . every singly moment relative from the time I stuck my foot to the time you hit the ground is already known to him … now if instead of hitting the ground you start flying then you my say things changed
by necessity things do not change to a changeless being …
Okay. one order millet bread with fresh tomatoes , seasonal onions and sesame oil coming up for my deacon friend over there …
bahman , Persian it is if you say so .
what is your gender ?
frankly Bahman you’re not working hard enough. You say god knows all sets of creation then you say creations changes to him . how can it change for him when he knows it all ? there is no change as far as he is concerned because you said he knows it all. Change is only to you who doesn’t know . but for him nothing can change. by your own postulate. in order for change to happen he has to not know it but you said he knows .
let me illustrate . you’re walking and I stick my foot out and trip you . you see my foot stuck out suddenly , too late , you can’t stop , you start falling , you see the ground getting closer. These are changes for you. But to god and according to you he already knows . no new info has been added to his knowledge or subtracted from his knowledge . every singly moment relative from the time I stuck my foot to the time you hit the ground is already known to him … now if instead of hitting the ground you start flying then you my say things changed
by necessity things do not change to a changeless being …
W
wadramli
Guest
Back in the day , before the advent of iphone smart watch Christians used the sun to tell when it is time for canonical prayers . they had a bunch of markers corresponding to the shadow cast by the sun and a pole . I believe those are what is referred to as moments of time .
In some parts of Africa we still use the sun to tell time . it’s better if you live in or close to the equator…i have four moments of time of my own that I use to tell time of day . my wife has her own moments of times too , ones that she changes whenever she likes .
In islam they got the times for their prayer at fixed times by their god decree . . . leads to all kind of humors situations. Some countries have taken to adopting Saudi Arabia time . time in the Muslim country has to be the same time as saudi arabia time . and long fasting ramdan hours if you’re at the wrong time zone
The desert is always the same , hot in day , cold at nite , arid and dry . it instills constancy in the mind of the person. Their God is constant like that
Language wise arabs always aggravated by English usage. How can you say to me to see you in an hour? An hour is not something you can be in . you should say see you after an hour or after 1/2 hour .
.
In some parts of Africa we still use the sun to tell time . it’s better if you live in or close to the equator…i have four moments of time of my own that I use to tell time of day . my wife has her own moments of times too , ones that she changes whenever she likes .
In islam they got the times for their prayer at fixed times by their god decree . . . leads to all kind of humors situations. Some countries have taken to adopting Saudi Arabia time . time in the Muslim country has to be the same time as saudi arabia time . and long fasting ramdan hours if you’re at the wrong time zone
The desert is always the same , hot in day , cold at nite , arid and dry . it instills constancy in the mind of the person. Their God is constant like that
Language wise arabs always aggravated by English usage. How can you say to me to see you in an hour? An hour is not something you can be in . you should say see you after an hour or after 1/2 hour .
.
C
CHRISTINE77
Guest
Ha ha - that is very interesting and true. Different cultures have different concepts of time. Time means nothing when we are asleep or dreaming.
The Australian aborigines have a thing called Dream Time (Alcheringa) or “time out of time”, or “everywhen”, or"eternal, uncreated".
C
CarmelJerome
Guest
Too many people in what passes for philosophy departments as either students or professors have developed this puerile playing with sets as if it were some meaningful form of discourse when it's just masking all manner of fallacies with pretend precision.
B
Bahman
Guest
Seriously what you are doing in philosophy forum when you don’t even believe in logic. 
D
davidv
Guest
Given (name removed by moderator)'s post and this response, it is more likely that (name removed by moderator) is not the one lacking logic.Seriously what you are doing in philosophy forum when you don’t even believe in logic.
B
Bookcat
Guest
It is important to note that Logic comes from God. (“logic” actually comes from the word logos).
Jesus indeed is the Logos.
Reason, logic is not contrary to Faith. They go with Faith as two wings.
“The philosophical dimension to be noted in this biblical vision, and its importance from the standpoint of the history of religions, lies in the fact that on the one hand we find ourselves before a strictly metaphysical image of God: God is the absolute and ultimate source of all being; but this universal principle of creation—the Logos, primordial reason—is at the same time a lover with all the passion of a true love.”
~ Pope Benedict XVI Deus Caritas Est
Logos and Love…and yes we can make analogies drawing from likeness of ourselves to God -but God is more “unlike” us than like us. God is God and transcends creation.
"…the Church has always insisted that between God and us, between his eternal Creator Spirit and our created reason there exists a real analogy, in which - as the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 stated - unlikeness remains infinitely greater than likeness, yet not to the point of abolishing analogy and its language. God does not become more divine when we push him away from us in a sheer, impenetrable voluntarism; rather, the truly divine God is the God who has revealed himself as logos and, as logos, has acted and continues to act lovingly on our behalf. Certainly, love, as Saint Paul says, “transcends” knowledge and is thereby capable of perceiving more than thought alone (cf. Eph 3:19); nonetheless it continues to be love of the God who is Logos. Consequently, Christian worship is, again to quote Paul - “λογικη λατρεία”, worship in harmony with the eternal Word and with our reason (cf. Rom 12:1).[10]
~ Pope Benedict XVI 12 September 2006
We follow Jesus of Nazareth the Logos made flesh - Who was Crucified and on the third day Rose from the dead…He is the meaning (logos again) of our life.
Jesus indeed is the Logos.
Reason, logic is not contrary to Faith. They go with Faith as two wings.
“The philosophical dimension to be noted in this biblical vision, and its importance from the standpoint of the history of religions, lies in the fact that on the one hand we find ourselves before a strictly metaphysical image of God: God is the absolute and ultimate source of all being; but this universal principle of creation—the Logos, primordial reason—is at the same time a lover with all the passion of a true love.”
~ Pope Benedict XVI Deus Caritas Est
Logos and Love…and yes we can make analogies drawing from likeness of ourselves to God -but God is more “unlike” us than like us. God is God and transcends creation.
"…the Church has always insisted that between God and us, between his eternal Creator Spirit and our created reason there exists a real analogy, in which - as the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 stated - unlikeness remains infinitely greater than likeness, yet not to the point of abolishing analogy and its language. God does not become more divine when we push him away from us in a sheer, impenetrable voluntarism; rather, the truly divine God is the God who has revealed himself as logos and, as logos, has acted and continues to act lovingly on our behalf. Certainly, love, as Saint Paul says, “transcends” knowledge and is thereby capable of perceiving more than thought alone (cf. Eph 3:19); nonetheless it continues to be love of the God who is Logos. Consequently, Christian worship is, again to quote Paul - “λογικη λατρεία”, worship in harmony with the eternal Word and with our reason (cf. Rom 12:1).[10]
~ Pope Benedict XVI 12 September 2006
We follow Jesus of Nazareth the Logos made flesh - Who was Crucified and on the third day Rose from the dead…He is the meaning (logos again) of our life.
- Status