Timeless God cannot know the current time hence cannot sustain the creation

[Tom_Baum]

Let say that we are the result of whatever which is more conceiving than your God. I can claim that I believe on that. Would you accept it? No. You need to give me a reason that why you don’t drop your belief and not mine. That is the only thing we have in our disposal, our reasoning.

Reasoning is NOT the only thing that we have at our disposal, we also have our experiences as a human being and our emotions and other things that make us human, reasoning is only part of what makes us human.

As far as, “You need to give me a reason that why you don’t drop your belief and not mine”, the “reason” that I have many of the beliefs that I have is because I have met God the Father and I have met the Holy Spirit, among other things that I have experienced, and I have used my reasoning ability to “ponder” on my experiences.

What is the difference between your God and whatever if we could not have an understanding of subject matter.

As far as “have an understanding of subject matter”, do you understand absolutely everything about the “known universe”?

If you do than you, most certainly, have a better understanding of that subject matter than I do.

If God did indeed create the universe and you don’t know everything about the creation, why would you think that you could know, by reasoning, everything about the Creator?

Well, that doesn’t grant any usefulness. You cannot claim that I believe on something i cannot understand.

I never claimed that you believe in something that you do not understand, I said that it would be a “puny god” if you knew everything about God with your reasoning, however this is merely my opinion.

That said, at least part of why I said “that it would be a “puny god” if you knew everything about God with your reasoning” is that I was taught that God Is Love in second grade and when I met God the Father, I came to the realization that the statement, “God Is Love” is quite literal and even though I “know” it, I also know that it is beyond my reasoning ability to “know” it.

I don’t believe on such a God.

My question was, “It doesn’t matter if you believe in a God that created everything but just for a “thought experiment” try to think of a Being that could create something out of nothing?”

I did not ask you to “believe” it, just to think about it.

Also, as far as “I don’t believe on such a God”, do you believe in any kind of God, god or gods?

I have been thinking about it for a while.

Since you gave it some thought, do you have any comments concerning your “thoughts”?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Look my friend, you are not making argument. All I am asking is that how God could know the very moment of now in his timeless state. I am not interested in example which doesn’t make sense.

You are thinking that God is the same as Bahman, with the same brain and the same reaoning abilities. Why do you think God thinks like you do?

 

[Bahman]

I have answered.

As to the last part - that is an illustration not to answer the question- but to get behind the question.

It would be good for you to be interested in that example - for it is about your difficulty in understanding these things -coming from your approach.

Until you see that your approaching God not as God but as some created creature - you will keep asking the same questions coming from the same mistaken approach.

Now that I have explained why I wrote that - please go back and read it again.

No you didn’t answer and I am approaching God as God namely I assume that God is timeless and show that timeless God cannot know the current time.

 

[Bahman]

God is both inside and outside of time. He knows everything.

God cannot be timeless and time bound at the same time.

 

[Bookcat]

No you didn’t answer and I am approaching God as God .

I did.

And as I noted - you are not.

 

[Bookcat]

There is no meanwhile…

God is God - not a creature in time. God is outside of time - but that is not as some “timeless being” that you might think up in your imagination. God is intimately involved with creation.

God is the creator – all that “is” is created by God. God knows all that is thus created - from the inside as it were- its very being is known to God -or it would not be.

God does not know in the same way we know.

All moments of time are present to God.

“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy” (CCC 600)

Your still trying to think of God as if God were a creature in time.

 

[Bookcat]

I am approaching God as God. I assume that God is timeless and show that timeless God cannot know the current time.

You can ‘say’ your thinking of God as God -but you are not as is seen by your questions and arguments.

Your rather engaging* your* particular idea of God -but one that is coming from your experience as a contingent being in time.

God is God - not a creature in time. God is more unlike creation than like creation.

God is outside of time - and that is not as some “timeless being” that you might think up in your imagination. God is intimately involved with creation.

God is the creator --* all that “is” is created by God.* God knows all that is thus created - from the inside as it were- its very being is known to God -or it would not be.

God does not know in the same way we know.

All moments of time are present to God. Your still trying to think of God as if God were a creature in time.

“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy” (CCC 600)

 

[CHRISTINE77]

God cannot be timeless and time bound at the same time.

Sez you.

 

[Bookcat]

Sez you.

God is outside of Time…and God is not bound by time.

But that does not mean of course that God is not also present to us everywhere and at all times (from our perspective). It is not that God does not create all that is continuing to be created or is not involved in all that is in creation. I think that is what your thinking of.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

God is outside of Time…and God is not bound by time.

But that does not mean of course that God is not also present to us everywhere and at all times (from our perspective). It is not that God does not create all that is continuing to be created or is not involved in all that is in creation. I think that is what your thinking of.

Yes that is what I am thinking.

 

[Bahman]

Reasoning is NOT the only thing that we have at our disposal, we also have our experiences as a human being and our emotions and other things that make us human, reasoning is only part of what makes us human.

That is correct but feeling is not a measure of truth.

As far as, “You need to give me a reason that why you don’t drop your belief and not mine”, the “reason” that I have many of the beliefs that I have is because I have met God the Father and I have met the Holy Spirit, among other things that I have experienced, and I have used my reasoning ability to “ponder” on my experiences.

How a timeless God could meet someone in time bound universe?

As far as “have an understanding of subject matter”, do you understand absolutely everything about the “known universe”?

I don’t know universe well but I can claim that something exist that I can experience. That is all. I claim that I don’t know the the origin of universe though. That is in fact you who claim that it is sure about the origin of universe yet cannot resolve a simple paradox.

If you do than you, most certainly, have a better understanding of that subject matter than I do.

I don’t claim that I have an answer to origin of universe.

If God did indeed create the universe and you don’t know everything about the creation, why would you think that you could know, by reasoning, everything about the Creator?

I claim that I don’t know what God is but what God isn’t. In another word, a timeless God cannot know the current time hence he cannot sustain the creation.

I never claimed that you believe in something that you do not understand, I said that it would be a “puny god” if you knew everything about God with your reasoning, however this is merely my opinion.

Please read the previous comment.

That said, at least part of why I said “that it would be a “puny god” if you knew everything about God with your reasoning” is that I was taught that God Is Love in second grade and when I met God the Father, I came to the realization that the statement, “God Is Love” is quite literal and even though I “know” it, I also know that it is beyond my reasoning ability to “know” it.

God of course is not love because love is something we experience and it doesn’t have any essence.

My question was, “It doesn’t matter if you believe in a God that created everything but just for a “thought experiment” try to think of a Being that could create something out of nothing?”

The act creation is not subject of this thread. I am arguing that God cannot sustain creation being in state of timeless.

I did not ask you to “believe” it, just to think about it.

I do.

Also, as far as “I don’t believe on such a God”, do you believe in any kind of God, god or gods?

I am open to any thought which can explain the origin of universe.

Since you gave it some thought, do you have any comments concerning your “thoughts”?

I am just open for any view that can explain where we did come from.

 

[wadramli]

Guys I think we keep failing bahman . instead of helping we’re adding to the confusion. Take it easy .

Bahman my friend , don’t let anyone tell you that time changes . it does not . time is a measurement of some states of some atom something –something I don’t really recall. The second is the time that it takes to change from the one state to the other . something like that . then what we do we is use that as our standard . for example if I say 5 seconds then I am saying that is like the duration of changes of states of the atom five times . if a train takes 5 minutes to travel from point A to point B then we are saying that equal 300 durations - because there are 60 seconds in minute –of changes of states . this way we measure changes distance , pressure and whatnot in a standard way we can all use . its just multiples of that standard measurements . that’s time . no big deal really

even if times changes that’s no big deal either because that means we are using different measurement standards . like for example you say the train took 5 minutes to travel from A to B and I say it took 6 minutes . all that is saying is that we used different measurements . you used bigger measurements that is why you got 5 and I used smaller measurements that’s why it took 6 for the train to get to B

now stuff happens at high velocities and if you have two different observes on different platforms then there is going to be a discrepancy in their measurements . there is a formula to calculate that .i saw it some 40 years before you were born .but if the two observers are on the same platform there is no discrepancy. Its al the same . but that is irrelevant .forget about all that . got nothing to do with it

now you postulated a state of knowledge possessed by timeless god . and the knowledge is all of states of creation. So creation started at zero measurement . we want you and I to find out what is the measures of right now we calculate how many measurements in our time scale which is that second that standard second and we find it . lets X number of duration elapsed . so now is we X seconds . then a second later the now for you and me is X seconds plus 1 . two standard measurement later on and the now for you and me is X seconds plus 2 seconds and so on. Now if the states of creations are spaced every second then there is a corresponding state of creation every second elaped. there is one at X seconds, another one at X plus 1 and third at X plus 3 and so on . each and everyone of these is known to god by your postulation. If now is X seconds minus ten seconds that corresponds to a creation state back then and is known to god . now in the future when you get as old as I am will be some 50 years or so . so you multiply by to get the number of seconds . that will be the new now for you then . it has a corresponding state know to god .

now the really interesting thing if we have a formula to relate one state to the other in terms of our time measurement and few other little things like where every things is at and few zillion other thinsg you then we will have it made . we will be like super beings . we can predict with certainty any event . The past present and future will be same to us . it will be a gigantic formula no computer hitherto can tackle it . but with such a formula we can take what they call limits in calculus which is just a way to determine the value of a function as time approaches zero. Then we can determine any state of creation on our time line measured by our standard second . states between the second that spaces our states of creation and between them and between them to zero time corresponding to that state of creation at an instant . Like for example a very veeeeeeeeeeeeeery simple function x like one divided by x square as x gets larger and large one over x square gets smaller . the limit of the function is zero.

Work on it and if you do not get it. that’s alright . we go over it again . we human are no where as smart as we think. . it took mankind 400 years to figure out how to double volume and 600 years to figure out how to measure the distance of ship from shore .

Hey bahman as you delve more and more in science suddenly and before you know it , you begin to scratch your head and say to yourself hey there is got to be a god . there is some crazy math about parallel lines meeting at infinity . but that was scrapped in the 60s . and actually you can rig up a universe not the one we have but a universe with beings who have the sort of freedom that makes them gods compared to us .its all about Freedom . we can only do it on paper and notation and formulations that’s how we know . it is very hard to conceive mentally past certain point .i can right now rig up rules different from the one of our world with a being that can go right through your body without breaking your skin . listen go read the new testament . in one instant Jesus says he felt power escape him when a woman who had bleeding issues touched him. Do not dismiss the bible . read it and look carefully . And check behind the lines . and hey bahamn we humans what god can we have better than jesus . isn’t he great ? well okay then . check it . give it a chance .you don’t have to jump in right from the start . slowly slowly . you can move a mountain one particle at a time . go on then do it . pay attention to the signs . they are no accidents . when they happen do not be afraid .you got heart , right?

you started a very beneficial post . thank you . something to remember for all of us .

 

[Bookcat]

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

God creates "out of nothing"

296 We believe that God needs no pre-existent thing or any help in order to create, nor is creation any sort of necessary emanation from the divine substance. God creates freely “out of nothing”

 

[Bookcat]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

God transcends creation and is present to it.

300 God is infinitely greater than all his works: "You have set your glory above the heavens."156 Indeed, God’s “greatness is unsearchable”.157 But because he is the free and sovereign Creator, the first cause of all that exists, God is present to his creatures’ inmost being: "In him we live and move and have our being."158 In the words of St. Augustine, God is “higher than my highest and more inward than my innermost self”.159 ****

God upholds and sustains creation.

301 With creation, God does not abandon his creatures to themselves. He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, enables them to act and brings them to their final end. Recognizing this utter dependence with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence…

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

 

[Bahman]

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

God creates "out of nothing"

296 We believe that God needs no pre-existent thing or any help in order to create, nor is creation any sort of necessary emanation from the divine substance. God creates freely “out of nothing”

How God creates out of nothing? You don’t know because it was not revealed to you.

 

[Bahman]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

God transcends creation and is present to it.

300 God is infinitely greater than all his works: "You have set your glory above the heavens."156 Indeed, God’s “greatness is unsearchable”.157 But because he is the free and sovereign Creator, the first cause of all that exists, God is present to his creatures’ inmost being: "In him we live and move and have our being."158 In the words of St. Augustine, God is “higher than my highest and more inward than my innermost self”.159 ****

God upholds and sustains creation.

301 With creation, God does not abandon his creatures to themselves. He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, enables them to act and brings them to their final end. Recognizing this utter dependence with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence…

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

How a God who does not know the current time could hold creation?

 

[Bookcat]

How God creates out of nothing? You don’t know because it was not revealed to you.

How?

Yes that is not something for me to know “in some exact “divine” way”.

Though I know that God did create ex nihil - and that as God - God could and did.

Creation is a work of the Father, the Son (the Logos) and the Holy Spirit (see the Catechism)

The Gospel of John for example tells us that all things were made through the Logos …

 

[Bookcat]

How a God who does not know the current time could hold creation?

Huh?

God knows all.

There is not time …without God

 

[wadramli]

bahman , matter is created near black hole . no big deal. we’ve known that for a while .

 

[Bahman]

How?

Yes that is not something for me to know “in some exact “divine” way”.

Though I know that God did create ex nihil - and that as God - God could and did.

Creation is a work of the Father, the Son (the Logos) and the Holy Spirit (see the Catechism)

The Gospel of John for example tells us that all things were made through the Logos …

You explain nothing.