Timeless God cannot know the current time hence cannot sustain the creation

[Bookcat]

And part of what I noted from 1 Tim 2: 3-6, “who wills everyone to be saved” speaking of “God our savior” Who by His work on the cross “gave himself as ransom for all”.

Also when asked by His Apostles to teach them to pray, prayed, “… Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done…”, so one can see that Jesus taught us to pray that “Our Father’s” “Will be done”.

What could you “not follow” from what is so simply written in 1 Tim 2: 3-6?

Many don’t believe it, but the words, “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself as ransom for all. This was the testimony at the proper time.”, seem simple, concise and unambiguous; apparently they don’t to you, do they?

Not only is it written that God “wills everyone to be saved” but it is also written that God asked us to pray that God’s “Will be done”.

Bit off topic I guess is where I did not understand.

Yes God desires that all be saved…and yes we are to pray as Jesus taught us.

CCC

851 Missionary motivation. It is from God’s love for all men that the Church in every age receives both the obligation and the vigor of her missionary dynamism, "for the love of Christ urges us on."343 Indeed, God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”;344 that is, God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth. Those who obey the prompting of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation. But the Church, to whom this truth has been entrusted, must go out to meet their desire, so as to bring them the truth. Because she believes in God’s universal plan of salvation, the Church must be missionary.

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. In him is salvation and true life.

“Being Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI Deus Caritas Est

“Happy are you who believe!” (cf 1 Peter 2:7). Let us turn to Jesus! He alone is the way that leads to eternal happiness, the truth who satisfies the deepest longings of every heart, and the life who brings ever new joy and hope, to us and to our world."

~ Pope Benedict XVI (Homily at Yankee Stadium)

 

[DCNBILL]

I look at it as rearranging because, ultimately, the things you describe are physical things and the artist rearranged paint, pigment, canvas, wood, marble, clay, whatever.

It could be a thought, it could be a feeling, it could be something else that encouraged the artist to do what s/he did.

It could very well be an original work of art springing from an original idea, if there is such a thing, but it is nevertheless put together with preexisting material/s.

Some people considered some cars, “works of art”, if you think that art is created, do you consider cars as being created?

I admit that I look at the meaning of “create” in a very narrow way and that is why I pointed this out while there are others who call many, many things “creations”.

I think that a design of a car would be a creation. Note I do distinguish how man creates with how God creates, but that would be another thread.

Thanks for your clarification.

God bless

 

[Bahman]

Bahman, with all due respect, that is just what you have been doing over these past several pages.

You need to provide me the post which I didn’t made an argument.

I’m sorry, you have not (IMHO) made any logically cohesive arguments to support your claim that God does not or cannot understand the concept of time - but that we humans CAN.

Have you read OP? I didn’t claim that timeless God cannot understand the concept of time but he cannot know what is the current time.

You have not convinced me that God is metaphysically incapable of intervening in the course of human affairs - a claim which (if true) would invalidate the entire bible.

Because he cannot sustain the creation. That is the whole point of OP. Please provide with any objection you might have.

You haven’t provided any scientific support for your theory about multiple categories of space/time - some of which are outside God’s dominion. Multiverse???

I didn’t made such a claim.

So for you to now accuse others of special pleading strikes me as pretty unfair.

I think I was fair unless you provide me the point you have an objection to.

 

[Bahman]

Are you trying to say that God can “know” the past and God can “know” the future but God can not know the present (current time)?

All I am saying is that God cannot know the current time hence he cannot sustain the creation.

By the way, you have mentioned a “timeless God” many times, what exactly do you mean by “timeless God”?

It means that everything is present to him at eternal now.

 

[Bookcat]

All I am saying is that God cannot know the current time hence he cannot sustain the creation.

Both statements would be foreign to Revelation …foreign to the Christian understanding of God.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

All I am saying is that God cannot know the current time hence he cannot sustain the creation.

It means that everything is present to him at eternal now.

How do you feel about God creating matter out of nothing such as the black holes in space?

 

[Bahman]

How do you feel about God creating matter out of nothing such as the black holes in space?

I believe that universe has infinite folds hence I am open to every point of view but I think that timeless God cannot be a correct concept.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Bit off topic I guess is where I did not understand.

Yes God desires that all be saved…and yes we are to pray as Jesus taught us.

CCC

851 Missionary motivation. It is from God’s love for all men that the Church in every age receives both the obligation and the vigor of her missionary dynamism, "for the love of Christ urges us on."343 Indeed, God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”;344 that is, God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth. Those who obey the prompting of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation. But the Church, to whom this truth has been entrusted, must go out to meet their desire, so as to bring them the truth. Because she believes in God’s universal plan of salvation, the Church must be missionary.

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. In him is salvation and true life.

“Being Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI Deus Caritas Est

“Happy are you who believe!” (cf 1 Peter 2:7). Let us turn to Jesus! He alone is the way that leads to eternal happiness, the truth who satisfies the deepest longings of every heart, and the life who brings ever new joy and hope, to us and to our world."

~ Pope Benedict XVI (Homily at Yankee Stadium)

You wrote, “343 Indeed, God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”;344 that is, God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth.”

The “indeed” part of what is written says that "God “desires all men to be saved AND to come to the knowledge of the truth”;, as in two different but related things that God wants (desires,wills), since the version that I printed said, "This is good and pleasing to God our savior, 4 who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. "…

However the “that is” part says, “God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth.”, did they find a “misprint” in the bible because that is NOT what is written in the bible?

“This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved AND to come to knowledge of the truth.”, does NOT say the same thing as “God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth.”, the emphasis on AND, that I put in, is to show that the two statements are not one and the same.

Is it thru someone’s “personal knowledge” of the truth that one is saved or is it because the TRUTH IS TRUTH, whether one knows it or not, that one is saved?

You wrote it as, “Salvation is found in the truth”, Truth being truth is NOT contingent on one finding it, from what I have heard the truth is that Jesus took ALL of the sins of ALL upon Himself, not just the sins of those that repent this side of breath, isn’t that what is taught as TRUTH about Jesus’s work on the cross?

I have never been taught that Jesus only took the sins of those who found out about it to the cross, have you?

 

[Tom_Baum]

I think that a design of a car would be a creation. Note I do distinguish how man creates with how God creates, but that would be another thread.

Thanks for your clarification.

God bless

That might be another thread but would you say something like, man creates out of something, whereas God creates out of nothing and something, the something, in God’s case, being that God uses the something that God created out of nothing.

 

[Tom_Baum]

All I am saying is that God cannot know the current time hence he cannot sustain the creation…

If as you say, “It means that everything is present to him at eternal now.”, than how could God not know the “present”?

It means that everything is present to him at eternal now.

Do you think that God is somehow “confined” to the “eternal now”?

 

[Bahman]

If as you say, “It means that everything is present to him at eternal now.”, than how could God not know the “present”?

Because having all moments presented to God does not grant the knowledge of which moment is the current now. This is an extra knowledge and it changes by time. God’s knowledge however changeless hence he cannot know the current time.

Do you think that God is somehow “confined” to the “eternal now”?

Timeless God is confined to the eternal now.

 

[Bookcat]

However the “that is” part says, “God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth.”, did they find a “misprint” in the bible because that is NOT what is written in the bible?

Not not a misprint. Not a quote. It is not a quote there from Sacred Scripture but further lines in the Catechism. Not intended to be a quote.

Is it thru someone’s “personal knowledge” of the truth that one is saved or is it because the TRUTH IS TRUTH, whether one knows it or not, that one is saved?

It is not just “knowledge” as in in knowing something. One is not discover true life by knowing the truth that 2 + 2 =4 or even that the Alps are beautiful (though both can point you toward God…so can play a part in ones opening up to God). Nor is it even that one knows that God is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit or that Jesus is the Logos the Son of God. The Demons know this. It is not “knowledge” that saves per se.

Jesus is the Way the *Truth *and the Life. Salvation comes through him - from him- in from his death and resurrection. Even if it may happen that a person enters into this true life - in a way we do not know - who never heard the name of Jesus.

But in any case it is not just “knowing about something or someone”. Though yes such knowledge is normally part of things.

“Being Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI Deus Caritas Est

(this is all though off topic…pm me if you want to discuss further).

 

[Ignatius]

Timeless God knows all states of creation. Lets consider each state as “s”, which defines creation as a set, lets call it “S”, where “S” contains all states. “S” is basically God’s knowledge of creation. So far everything is nice. …This means that God needs to have a knowledge now which is impossible as it was discussed hence God cannot sustain creation.

Unless He Created and controls time.

 

[DCNBILL]

Because having all moments presented to God does not grant the knowledge of which moment is the current now. This is an extra knowledge and it changes by time. God’s knowledge however changeless hence he cannot know the current time.

** Timeless God is confined to the eternal now**.

The bold statement above is almost correct but God in not confined to the eternal now. He has all of eternity to dwell on any particular “now” that he wishes because all of time, which is His creation, is before Him for all eternity.

 

[JimG]

Can I say that a person who lives in three dimensions cannot identify a point on a line because he lives outside the line, and sees the whole line at once?

Can I say that God cannot see a particular instant in a temporal line because he lives outside the line and sees all temporal ‘nows’ at once?

The answer to both questions is no.

 

[Bookcat]

All that is - is caused and held in existence by God. Time is part of that.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Because having all moments presented to God does not grant the knowledge of which moment is the current now. This is an extra knowledge and it changes by time. God’s knowledge however changeless hence he cannot know the current time.

So are you saying that in some ways or in some way that we, mere humans, know more than God about somethings or something?

Timeless God is confined to the eternal now.

Does God know this?

Who confined God?

Your “god” seems to be getting smaller and smaller the more that you know about him, do you think that your “god” might just completely disappear if you were to somehow come to know everything about him?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

So are you saying that in some ways or in some way that we, mere humans, know more than God about somethings or something?

Does God know this?

Who confined God?

Your “god” seems to be getting smaller and smaller the more that you know about him, do you think that your “god” might just completely disappear if you were to somehow come to know everything about him?

 

[Tom_Baum]

The bold statement above is almost correct but God in not confined to the eternal now. He has all of eternity to dwell on any particular “now” that he wishes because all of time, which is His creation, is before Him for all eternity.

Time and eternity are not the same.

Time is created, eternity isn’t.

I really do NOT know what eternity is or how one could even analogy it.

God created time and space and God can enter His Creation at will and at any time and place that He wishes to enter it without becoming a part of it.

It was in the Incarnation that God not only entered His Creation but became a part of His Creation.

It is my opinion that whoever thinks that “Timeless God is confined to the eternal now”, meaning God when saying “Timeless God” and meaning eternity, as opposed to time, when saying “eternal now” has, to say the least, “a puny conception” of God.

God can mean pretty much anything but I am speaking of God as the Being Who created absolutely everything, except Himself, out of absolutely nothing and I use the “masculine” Himself out of convenience since I think of God as neither a Male, a Female nor an It even though God-Incarnate was a Male.

 

[DCNBILL]

God can mean pretty much anything but I am speaking of God as the Being Who created absolutely everything, except Himself, out of absolutely nothing and I use the “masculine” Himself out of convenience since I think of God as neither a Male, a Female nor an It even though God-Incarnate was a Male.

Good stuff. I would also add to this that the Incarnation referred to God as Father.