Timeless God cannot know the current time hence cannot sustain the creation

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Bahman said:
You explain nothing.
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If I went into a Math class and started discussing questions as if numbers were colors and as it was an art course - the instructor would tell me that this is Math and not Art. And if I kept just asking again and again the same questions - treating numbers as if they were colors and Math as if where painting - he would say again that I need to approach the subject that is up for discussion not treating numbers as if they where colors. And that until I did I would not start to see the subject of Math…

He then talks with me about the Math problem - explaining how it works.

And then I say to him:

“you explain nothing”
  • the instructor will need again to repeat that I am not approaching Math as Math but as Art. And that until I see this I am not going to understand the explanation he is giving…
You keep trying to think of God as if God were a creature in time. And creation as if it were a work of art of human persons.

Your not approaching God as God.

Until you recognize that your doing this your going to keep hitting a wall in understanding what have been discussing with you.
 
Bahman said:
You explain nothing.
Click to expand...
Read again what I wrote in response to what you wrote.
Bahman said:
How God creates out of nothing? You don’t know because it was not revealed to you.
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How?

Yes that is* not* something for me to know “in some* exact *“divine” way”.

Though I know that God did create ex nihil - and that as God - God could and did.

Creation is a work of the Father, the Son (the Logos) and the Holy Spirit (see the Catechism)

The Gospel of John for example tells us that all things were made through the Logos …
I was not around…
 
wadramli said:
bahman , matter is created near black hole . no big deal. we’ve known that for a while .
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Your posts are very intriguing! I didn’t know that matter is created near a black hole. So science has proved that creation is ex nihilo?
 
Bookcat said:
Read again what I wrote in response to what you wrote.

How?

Yes that is* not* something for me to know “in some* exact *“divine” way”.

Though I know that God did create ex nihil - and that as God - God could and did.

Creation is a work of the Father, the Son (the Logos) and the Holy Spirit (see the Catechism)

The Gospel of John for example tells us that all things were made through the Logos …
I was not around…
Click to expand...
Repeating an assertion does not make it true. I can imagine and say universe is outcome of process X under circumstances Y. Whatever!
 
hi christine

Yes , matter is created outside the Black hole and anti matter inside the black hole. Something like that .

But look you yourself are lean mean creation machine . your mind is rigged in such a way that a thought by you is not traceable to its origin. That’s the math .straight and simple . that’s how that computer in your head is designed . its miniature creator . your thought has a beginning and it has an end but it creates out of nothing . that’s how it is rigged .so says the math.

Back in the day I really can’t remember when , I think late 60s scientists where very happy .they had the weather all figured out and a lot of funding was riding on that understanding . lot of money . they had a dept for it in the US . that was in the US . then one guy , can’t recall his name, just some guy was running weather simulations on his analogue computer and one time in one of the numbers he missed a decimal place . it was really the same number . for example instead of 2.2346 he put 2.234 . the guy goes to launch comes back and lo and behold graph was so different . this lead to chaos theory . upset a lot of scientists really . all that money slotted for controlling the weather threatened . .something like that .and teh theory offered an intriguing veiw of your mind . the minature creator .

watch out when you’re dealing with them physics guys . beat you up if you say something they don’t like. One of them tried to hit me with a bottle back then. .very sensitive folks .they come up with the thing and they can’t solve the thing .then math guy solves it . who gets the credit ?

what is matter ? You look at a table or a tree and you get excited and you think its real . but what that is it is the law. Change the law and tree is something else . infact you can make it disappear altogether . tree was there and then tree is gone . tree is back and then tree is gone in an nstant. . understand what I’m saying . I’m saying tree comes outof nothing and tree goes into nothing. in our world and out of our world . all it takes is power . immense power . the bible talked about it . it will require the energy of a bunch of black holes put together to do it . the word becoming flesh required the sort of power that boggles the mind . the sort of power that will be mieaningless to talk about because has to be so immense .probably more than out whole universe

Listen the bible is a book for all the ages . the now is your turn . you go read it and come up with the modern theology. Fro example after the flood there is a good chance a change in rules was introduced . the Lord almighty says he no longer will let man live past a certain age . it was so expressed to our forefathers who didn’t know much physics and math… You however go find the appropriate law for our age .

The Lord said he came to complete the Law . so it was . work on it . listen to the bible . where ever bahman got his stuff its all a dead end . he did get it from somewhere because there are obvious errors in his thinking about simple basic notions.
But you my beloved young Christian brothers and sister upon your shoulder falls the new scientific theology . . you are lateral thinkers not impeded mentally . work hard . you have the ultimate guide . its the bible and the catechism .
Atheists are the bane of scientific discovery . marooned minds stuck in circles .how can god this and how can god that . we are not like that . the lord of creation made us free . the creator has made creators . sooner or later you have to move on else they get you stuck with them too . that’s what they do. they get you stuck with them. They are tribal clannish sort of folks . conformist really . its fear . they are scared . makes them dangerous and also prone to nervous break downs if you press too hard . give bahman a hug , tell him yeah yeah bahman I really did not think of that . thank you so much . you do not know the history . people can be very cruel. And the mind is a self defending machine , sad to see for the atheists it defends paralysis and stagnation.
 
wadramli said:
hi christine

Yes , matter is created outside the Black hole and anti matter inside the black hole. Something like that .

But look you yourself are lean mean creation machine . your mind is rigged in such a way that a thought by you is not traceable to its origin. That’s the math .straight and simple . that’s how that computer in your head is designed . its miniature creator . your thought has a beginning and it has an end but it creates out of nothing . that’s how it is rigged .so says the math.

Back in the day I really can’t remember when , I think late 60s scientists where very happy .they had the weather all figured out and a lot of funding was riding on that understanding . lot of money . they had a dept for it in the US . that was in the US . then one guy , can’t recall his name, just some guy was running weather simulations on his analogue computer and one time in one of the numbers he missed a decimal place . it was really the same number . for example instead of 2.2346 he put 2.234 . the guy goes to launch comes back and lo and behold graph was so different . this lead to chaos theory . upset a lot of scientists really . all that money slotted for controlling the weather threatened . .something like that .and teh theory offered an intriguing veiw of your mind . the minature creator .

watch out when you’re dealing with them physics guys . beat you up if you say something they don’t like. One of them tried to hit me with a bottle back then. .very sensitive folks .they come up with the thing and they can’t solve the thing .then math guy solves it . who gets the credit ?

what is matter ? You look at a table or a tree and you get excited and you think its real . but what that is it is the law. Change the law and tree is something else . infact you can make it disappear altogether . tree was there and then tree is gone . tree is back and then tree is gone in an nstant. . understand what I’m saying . I’m saying tree comes outof nothing and tree goes into nothing. in our world and out of our world . all it takes is power . immense power . the bible talked about it . it will require the energy of a bunch of black holes put together to do it . the word becoming flesh required the sort of power that boggles the mind . the sort of power that will be mieaningless to talk about because has to be so immense .probably more than out whole universe

Listen the bible is a book for all the ages . the now is your turn . you go read it and come up with the modern theology. Fro example after the flood there is a good chance a change in rules was introduced . the Lord almighty says he no longer will let man live past a certain age . it was so expressed to our forefathers who didn’t know much physics and math… You however go find the appropriate law for our age .

The Lord said he came to complete the Law . so it was . work on it . listen to the bible . where ever bahman got his stuff its all a dead end . he did get it from somewhere because there are obvious errors in his thinking about simple basic notions.
But you my beloved young Christian brothers and sister upon your shoulder falls the new scientific theology . . you are lateral thinkers not impeded mentally . work hard . you have the ultimate guide . its the bible and the catechism .
Atheists are the bane of scientific discovery . marooned minds stuck in circles .how can god this and how can god that . we are not like that . the lord of creation made us free . the creator has made creators . sooner or later you have to move on else they get you stuck with them too . that’s what they do. they get you stuck with them. They are tribal clannish sort of folks . conformist really . its fear . they are scared . makes them dangerous and also prone to nervous break downs if you press too hard . give bahman a hug , tell him yeah yeah bahman I really did not think of that . thank you so much . you do not know the history . people can be very cruel. And the mind is a self defending machine , sad to see for the atheists it defends paralysis and stagnation.
Click to expand...
You wrote, “the word becoming flesh required the sort of power that boggles the mind . the sort of power that will be mieaningless to talk about because has to be so immense .probably more than out whole universe”

Do you really think/believe that God is “power”?

You also wrote, “The Lord said he came to complete the Law”

Jesus did not say that He came to “complete the Law” but to “fulfill the Law”, do you really think/believe that Jesus was talking about scientific laws?
 
Bookcat said:
How?

Yes that is not something for me to know “in some exact “divine” way”.

Though I know that God did create ex nihil - and that as God - God could and did.

Creation is a work of the Father, the Son (the Logos) and the Holy Spirit (see the Catechism)

The Gospel of John for example tells us that all things were made through the Logos …
Click to expand...
You wrote, “Though I know that God did create ex nihil”.

I, personally, can NOT say that I know that God did create ex nihilo (out of nothing) but I can and do say that I believe that God created ex nihilo.

The reason that I can say one and not the other is that I believe that “believe and know” have two completely different meanings and I try, I don’t always succeed, to differentiate between what I know and what I believe.

As far as creating “ex nihilo”, I believe that that is the only way that anything can be created, everything else is rearranging and God also did a lot of that.

Therefore whenever anyone says that someone created this out of that, I can not look at it as creating, in the true sense of what I believe the word “create” means.

As far as, “Creation is a work of the Father, the Son (the Logos) and the Holy Spirit (see the Catechism)”, all that you are saying there is that Creation is the work of God.
 
Bahman said:
Repeating an assertion does not make it true. I can imagine and say universe is outcome of process X under circumstances Y. Whatever!
Click to expand...
Bahman, with all due respect, that is just what you have been doing over these past several pages.

I’m sorry, you have not (IMHO) made any logically cohesive arguments to support your claim that God does not or cannot understand the concept of time - but that we humans CAN. :rolleyes:

You have not convinced me that God is metaphysically incapable of intervening in the course of human affairs - a claim which (if true) would invalidate the entire bible. :eek:

You haven’t provided any scientific support for your theory about multiple categories of space/time - some of which are outside God’s dominion. Multiverse???

So for you to now accuse others of special pleading strikes me as pretty unfair. 😦
 
wadramli said:
hi christine

Yes , matter is created outside the Black hole and anti matter inside the black hole. Something like that .

But look you yourself are lean mean creation machine . your mind is rigged in such a way that a thought by you is not traceable to its origin. That’s the math .straight and simple . that’s how that computer in your head is designed . its miniature creator . your thought has a beginning and it has an end but it creates out of nothing . that’s how it is rigged .so says the math.

Back in the day I really can’t remember when , I think late 60s scientists where very happy .they had the weather all figured out and a lot of funding was riding on that understanding . lot of money . they had a dept for it in the US . that was in the US . then one guy , can’t recall his name, just some guy was running weather simulations on his analogue computer and one time in one of the numbers he missed a decimal place . it was really the same number . for example instead of 2.2346 he put 2.234 . the guy goes to launch comes back and lo and behold graph was so different . this lead to chaos theory . upset a lot of scientists really . all that money slotted for controlling the weather threatened . .something like that .and teh theory offered an intriguing veiw of your mind . the minature creator .

watch out when you’re dealing with them physics guys . beat you up if you say something they don’t like. One of them tried to hit me with a bottle back then. .very sensitive folks .they come up with the thing and they can’t solve the thing .then math guy solves it . who gets the credit ?

what is matter ? You look at a table or a tree and you get excited and you think its real . but what that is it is the law. Change the law and tree is something else . infact you can make it disappear altogether . tree was there and then tree is gone . tree is back and then tree is gone in an nstant. . understand what I’m saying . I’m saying tree comes outof nothing and tree goes into nothing. in our world and out of our world . all it takes is power . immense power . the bible talked about it . it will require the energy of a bunch of black holes put together to do it . the word becoming flesh required the sort of power that boggles the mind . the sort of power that will be mieaningless to talk about because has to be so immense .probably more than out whole universe

Listen the bible is a book for all the ages . the now is your turn . you go read it and come up with the modern theology. Fro example after the flood there is a good chance a change in rules was introduced . the Lord almighty says he no longer will let man live past a certain age . it was so expressed to our forefathers who didn’t know much physics and math… You however go find the appropriate law for our age .

The Lord said he came to complete the Law . so it was . work on it . listen to the bible . where ever bahman got his stuff its all a dead end . he did get it from somewhere because there are obvious errors in his thinking about simple basic notions.
But you my beloved young Christian brothers and sister upon your shoulder falls the new scientific theology . . you are lateral thinkers not impeded mentally . work hard . you have the ultimate guide . its the bible and the catechism .
Atheists are the bane of scientific discovery . marooned minds stuck in circles .how can god this and how can god that . we are not like that . the lord of creation made us free . the creator has made creators . sooner or later you have to move on else they get you stuck with them too . that’s what they do. they get you stuck with them. They are tribal clannish sort of folks . conformist really . its fear . they are scared . makes them dangerous and also prone to nervous break downs if you press too hard . give bahman a hug , tell him yeah yeah bahman I really did not think of that . thank you so much . you do not know the history . people can be very cruel. And the mind is a self defending machine , sad to see for the atheists it defends paralysis and stagnation.
Click to expand...
Thanks for this most thought -provoking post. 🙂 I agree with you completely about atheists. In some ways I feel sorry for them - they are total materialists and do not believe in anything outside their five senses. With God all things are possible.
 
Tom_Baum said:
You wrote, “Though I know that God did create ex nihil”.

I, personally, can NOT say that I know that God did create ex nihilo (out of nothing) but I can and do say that I believe that God created ex nihilo.

The reason that I can say one and not the other is that I believe that “believe and know” have two completely different meanings and I try, I don’t always succeed, to differentiate between what I know and what I believe.

As far as creating “ex nihilo”, I believe that that is the only way that anything can be created, everything else is rearranging and God also did a lot of that.

Therefore whenever anyone says that someone created this out of that, I can not look at it as creating, in the true sense of what I believe the word “create” means.

As far as, “Creation is a work of the Father, the Son (the Logos) and the Holy Spirit (see the Catechism)”, all that you are saying there is that Creation is the work of God.
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How about a work of art, a painting or sculpture? Does that count as creating or merely rearranging?
 
Bahman said:
How a God who does not know the current time could hold creation?
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Are you trying to say that God can “know” the past and God can “know” the future but God can not know the present (current time)?

By the way, you have mentioned a “timeless God” many times, what exactly do you mean by “timeless God”?
 
DCNBILL said:
How about a work of art, a painting or sculpture? Does that count as creating or merely rearranging?
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I look at it as rearranging because, ultimately, the things you describe are physical things and the artist rearranged paint, pigment, canvas, wood, marble, clay, whatever.

It could be a thought, it could be a feeling, it could be something else that encouraged the artist to do what s/he did.

It could very well be an original work of art springing from an original idea, if there is such a thing, but it is nevertheless put together with preexisting material/s.

Some people considered some cars, “works of art”, if you think that art is created, do you consider cars as being created?

I admit that I look at the meaning of “create” in a very narrow way and that is why I pointed this out while there are others who call many, many things “creations”.
 
Bookcat said:
Faith is a kind of knowing.

“Faith is knowing the truth and adhering to it (cf. 1 Tim 2:4)”

~ Pope Benedict XVI

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/messages/lent/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20121015_lent-2013.html
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“Faith” is also referred to as a “gift”.

Concerning 1 Tim 2:4 which Pope Benedict XVI referred to and some surrounding verses:

I Tim 2:3 This is good and pleasing to God our savior, 4 who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human, 6 who gave himself as ransom for all. This was the testimony at the proper time."

Faith can also be looking at some simple and to the point verses concerning “knowledge of the truth” and being inspired to Hope that God is capable of doing what many seem to think God incapable of doing.

There are some who say that they “know”, as opposed to believe, who also say that anyone who believes what is so clearly written in 1 Tim 2: 3-6 are heretics, at least I believe that that is the word that they use, do you agree with them, disagree or have no opinion?

This question is for anyone who wishes to respond.
 
Tom_Baum said:
“Faith” is also referred to as a “gift”.
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Yes infused* Faith* (the proper use of Faith I am discussing) yes most certainly.

And as such it is a rather high way of knowing.

And as Pope Benedict XVI there noted “Faith is knowing the truth and adhering to it (cf. 1 Tim 2:4)”

And as he pointed wonderfully -it is not only involving adhering to various Truths but it is an adhering to God.

And yes as a gift of God to us.
 
Tom_Baum said:
There are some who say that they “know”, as opposed to believe, who also say that anyone who believes what is so clearly written in 1 Tim 2: 3-6 are heretics, at least I believe that that is the word that they use, do you agree with them, disagree or have no opinion?

.
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Afraid I do not follow you there.
I simply note what I noted above.
 
A work that may be of interest to you is:

“The Degrees of Knowledge” by Jacques Maritain
 
Bookcat said:
Afraid I do not follow you there.
I simply note what I noted above.
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And part of what I noted from 1 Tim 2: 3-6, “who wills everyone to be saved” speaking of “God our savior” Who by His work on the cross “gave himself as ransom for all”.

Also when asked by His Apostles to teach them to pray, prayed, “… Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done…”, so one can see that Jesus taught us to pray that “Our Father’s” “Will be done”.

What could you “not follow” from what is so simply written in 1 Tim 2: 3-6?

Many don’t believe it, but the words, “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself as ransom for all. This was the testimony at the proper time.”, seem simple, concise and unambiguous; apparently they don’t to you, do they?

Not only is it written that God “wills everyone to be saved” but it is also written that God asked us to pray that God’s “Will be done”.
 
hi Tom baum

the answer to your first question is no

thanks for that other verse . i know it to .

i believe Jesus talk to be infinite and beyond . nothing in or aorund this world can possibly encompass it

thanks for your questions.
 
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