Tired

[InLight247]

Hi Awake,

I was reading yours and the others posts, and I can’t help but think that you are experiencing what many of the great saints have entitled a “dark night of the soul”. Have you heard of this? I think Mother Teresa was one such who experienced these times where she felt empty, a lack of the presence of God in her.

Dark night of the soul, a profound spiritual experience, is too often being mistakened by many. There are very few people, even the Saints, have gone through true dark night of the soul.

According to Awake’s own words:

Originally by Awake, No, I never really had a strong faith.

He is not having dark night of the soul. Dark night of the soul happens to people who are in their sublime faith. Please refer to the other threads discussing Dark Night to have a better understanding.

God bless!

 

[sweetpea8319]

Yes, thank you, I had realized that when I went back and re-read his original post. That is why I clarified with a second post.

I have read that what he may be experiencing is a “dry spell”, but I still believe he would benefit greatly from learning about the dark night of the soul. So much of these saints’ spirituality and lives are strengthened through that dry period. Even if Awake’s faith is being tested right now, to the point where he doesn’t know if he wants to remain believing in God, the exercise of believing when you do not feel anything will strenthen your faith, especially if you do so with fervor, much prayer, and always relying on God.

At the least, he may find an answer for how to revive the faith within, and how to lean on God when you feel “dry” inside.

God bless!

 

[reen12]

quote: Awake

I guess I’m posting this to get some practical advice. I’m just frustrated with everything
and feel like there’s nobody I can really talk to. I’m hoping somebody has some advice
other than “just pray about it” or “offer your struggling up to God”. That’s the only advice
I’ve ever been given in life and it’s gotten me nowhere. If I were to use my spirituality
and prayer life as a basis of my faith, then I would certainly become an atheist.
I’m tired of failing no matter how hard I try.

I’m not about to tell you any of things, Awake.
I don’t recommend “offering up” puzzlement,
because there are some verrrrry solid reasons
to be puzzled.
I will try to adequately address both the matter
of atheistic thought, as well as that of prayer.
This will require 2 posts, in reply.

First off, let’s start with “God, the Father.”
The “Father” that Jesus kept referencing.
For the moment, I’ll just say “God.”
Posit for a moment that God exists.
And, further, that He is a personal God -
i.e., He takes an interest in His creatures -
human beings.

His will is to “save.” His will is, additionally,
to have a relationship with His human creatures.

Please forget any notion of “praying,” for a moment,
will you please? The kind of praying that makes
you feel as if you’re talking to a blank wall.
Prayer is very much a conversation with God.
What is confusing, or hurts our feelings, or
puzzles us, or makes us annoyed - becomes
the subject of “prayer.” If we “park” these
concerns - or what is really on our minds,
it’s hard to have a conversation - because
much of “me” is then missing.

Good God. *What *are they all talking about!
I don’t feel anything, emotionally, when I speak to Him.

I could give you the “standard” ‘answer’ here,
but I’m not going to. You are asking profound questions,
that deserve respect - and not canned “answers.”

reen12

 

[reen12]

Now, if you will, consider human parenthood.
A fine mother or father welcomes those times
when their children tell them what happened,
during the day.
As simple as “I got an A in math.”

As the child reaches different stages of growth,
the “conversation” with a parent expands,
to include much more complex subjects.
Yet no matter what stage of growth their
child has reached, the parent is there -
to truly listen and to offer reflections.
Theirs is a relationship.

If prayer is a conversation with God, then
“all” of me has to be present - just as
a son or a daughter is present to their human parent.
"You know what happened today?
“What?”

And that son or daughter is quite blessed -
because their parent actually “sees” them, and
listens to them.

I think that God waits, patiently, for us to find Him.
He’s already found us. He made us.

I often think, Awake, that reading the Psalms
puts me in God’s presence, almost immediately.
For in the Psalms, every human emotion is to
be found.

How long, O Lord, wilt Thou utterly forget me?
How long withl Thu hids Thy face from me?
“How long shall I harbor sorrow in my soul -
grief in my heart, day after day?” Psalm 2

---

Oddly enough, one can no more “prove” that God exists,
than one can prove that He doesn’t. [This is unfair to an atheist -
who may be called on to prove that God does not exist.]
In the realm of sheer logic - one is not called upon
to “prove” a negative. And one does not have to.
So when I hear people of faith - lording it over the
“atheist” - it causes a wry smile. No one has to
“prove” a negative.

To say that God does not exist - is sheer assertion.
To say that He does exist - is sheer assertion, as well.
For the beliver, it is a matter of faith.

A Christian asserts claims, about the nature of reality.
These assertions are faith-based. They are not ‘proveable.’
OTOH, to me - anyone who can look around at the
complexity of the universe and of humankind -
while claiming that this is all random, in nature - a product
of ‘nature,’ or big bang, or pure, sheer chance…
That, to me, requires more of a ‘belief system’
than faith ‘systems’ do.

Atheism cannot answer the simple question:
“How did the ‘matter’ which exploded with a bang
get there *to begin with.” *
[Read a brief aricle, yesterday, which stated that
some scientists are on the verge of explaining
what has been termed the “God factor.”]

I’ve been waiting for 40 years, for conclusive “proof” regarding -
the ‘missing link.’ To me, much of this is agenda-driven “science.”
I pay it little attention, while having great respect for the
scientific method, per se.
[Started out as a chemistry major, and switched to
philosophy.]

The claims of agenda-driven science, seem to boil down to -
"We’re on the verge of !..
Right. *Surrrre *you are.

reen12

 

[reen12]

I broke off the following, in the interest of clarity.

Once describe the Faith of our Fathers as a mere “belief system”

• and half the game is won, from the get-go.

Who manages to define the “terms” of the debate,
has a spectacular advantage.

Secular humanism rules the field, today. They have
been wildly successful, in being the ‘definers.’

And when I think of this, I think of another Psalm

“Why do the nations rage,
And the people utter folly?..” Psalm 2

To make of humankind the “measure of all things,”
is utter folly. This, too, on my part, is simply assertion.
But an assertion that I have been willing to live my life by.

In the end, I think it comes to this:
“I know that my Redeemer lives.”

Whether the God of Israel, or the triune God of Christianity,
I know that my Redeemer lives.

God bless and be with you, Awake.

reen12

 

[Awake]

Awake, if you would like, please feel free to PM me. I could share with you some things about my journey and my brother’s journey. I don’t know if they would be of help or not, but there is always the possibility.

I can say this much: I understand all to well what you say. Almost everything that you posted is something I can relate to.

Thank you, jmeyer. I will take your advice into consideration. I am around people that are very good Catholics, but they’re not the kind of people I can talk to about this kind of stuff.

Perhaps you can tell me what else helped to change your situation. You said you’ve had doubts for a decade and just recently you had your first religious experience. Was it a gradual shift, or did you suddenly have an epiphany? Other than just hanging in there, what do you attribute it to?

 

[Awake]

You are very right. Knowing about Jesus and knowing Jesus are two different things.
You are also right that you have to know a person before having a relationship with the person.
However, getting to know someone is the beginning of building a relationship, if the pursuit persists.

To me, Jesus is more real than a person standing by my desk. Even I cannot physically see Him, His presence is everywhere in my life. I am sure you agree that just because our physical eyes don’t see something, it does not mean that thing does not exist.
I think you believe in Jesus. The question is how to link the Savior, our Lord to your daily life and perceive the connection real.

I was baptized in college. Recollecting my own journey from a beginner to today, there are multiple ways helped me know Jesus better.
I know Him by reading His Words from the Bible, reflecting the meaning I learned, and apply them to my daily life.
I know Him by frequently receiving the Sacraments, especially Holy Communion and Reconciliation.
I know Him by participating discussion groups and sharing each other’s testimony.
I know Him by reading the Saints’ writings as well as different ordinary people’s life testimonies.
I know Him by frequent conversations with Him - prayers.
But most of all, I know Him by my faith and a grateful attitude.

I would like to know him at this level, but I don’t even know if he exists.

Faith is the substance of things we cannot see. If I believe God is in control, then I know all things in my life are His gifts.
When something I prayed for comes true, it is an obvious confirmation that Jesus has answered it. For example, when I drive into a full parking lot, I will pray for a parking space. When I find one, I will quickly give thanks to Him. This confirms that the Lord is with me. Now, I could not pray for such a small thing, but then I would miss a chance to feel being so well taken care of and give Jesus my thanks. Or I could pray for a parking space but think it was just a coincidence when find one and not give Jesus the credit.

And what happens if you didn’t find a parking space?

But which way would help me build a relationship?

If you bring every detail of your life to Jesus and ask for His help, you will have countless opportunities to count your blessings and know how real Jesus is. If you are willing to share your life with Him, you will not only build a relationship with Him, but an intimate relationship. Your heart will be full of joy and reassurance. You will be delighted with His presence and His loving gaze will be upon you. The joy of the Lord is my strength.

Of course, my prayers are not always answered as the way I want it. That is when the trust comes in. And looking back, I have to say His way is always much higher than my way.

I hope you continue to seek Jesus and try what I mentioned above.

In my prayers.

Well, this doesn’t seem to work for me.

 

[Awake]

Hi Awake,

I was reading yours and the others posts, and I can’t help but think that you are experiencing what many of the great saints have entitled a “dark night of the soul”. Have you heard of this? I think Mother Teresa was one such who experienced these times where she felt empty, a lack of the presence of God in her.

would suggest with a heartfelt prayer for you, that you read about some of these saints’ lives, find out what they did to combat this darkness, and just always rely on the fact that God does hear you and your prayers, even when you are in this dark period. Do not give up on your faith, but let your passion and need to seek God lead you closer to Him, even when you feel he is not there.

No, I don’t believe I’m having a dark night of the soul. As InLight has said, a real dark night of the soul happens, it only happens to people who already have a very solid faith. I have a hard time relating to Saint John of the Cross because he actually had a good spiritual life prior to his dark night of the soul.

 

[Awake]

That’s what it sounds like to you because that’s how you’re hearing it. I didn’t say you should believe it because someone says so. But you should believe because God tells you.

Because God tells me? God hasn’t told me. My parents have told me. My priest has told me. God hasn’t.

What I said was God gives you the ability to believe through His grace. Grace is the power of faith. You must be open to that grace to believe.

What do I mean by being open? It’s pretty obvious in the things you write. You place a lot of weight on proof and ‘seeing’. That’s not what faith is about. Until you can let that go, you won’t be open to that proof.

What? When did I once mention that I need visual proof? I just need something to work with. I can’t just rely on something because somebody else tells me it’s true. I need some way of coming to believe on my own.

If I were to tell you that hundreds of UFOs fly around the earth every day, would you believe me? Well, probably not. You can’t see or hear them. But even if you were blind and deaf, you still probably wouldn’t believe me because it would make any sense to you. A world without UFOs circling every 5 minutes makes more sense. What would it take for you to believe me that there are hundreds of UFOs? Well, you don’t necessarily need physical proof, but you’d need something to work with. You wouldn’t just believe it because I told you.

What I always hear from atheists is they need proof to believe in God. I can’t give you proof. No one can but God. And He doesn’t always oblige. Getting past that need for proof is something you need to work on yourself. And I can’t help you there, I’ve never had that block myself.

I do like the suggestion about getting to know Jesus. Not know about Him, but know Him. Through His words, His works, His deeds, His love, etc.

You’re putting words into my mouth. I’m not a staunch atheist who is demanding I see irrefutable scientific evidence that a God exists. I am a Catholic who wants to and tries to believe in God, but I am struggling to do so.

 

[Awake]

Now, if you will, consider human parenthood.
A fine mother or father welcomes those times
when their children tell them what happened,
during the day.
As simple as “I got an A in math.”

As the child reaches different stages of growth,
the “conversation” with a parent expands,
to include much more complex subjects.
Yet no matter what stage of growth their
child has reached, the parent is there -
to truly listen and to offer reflections.
Theirs is a relationship.

If prayer is a conversation with God, then
“all” of me has to be present - just as
a son or a daughter is present to their human parent.
"You know what happened today?
“What?”

And that son or daughter is quite blessed -
because their parent actually “sees” them, and
listens to them.

I think that God waits, patiently, for us to find Him.
He’s already found us. He made us.

I often think, Awake, that reading the Psalms
puts me in God’s presence, almost immediately.
For in the Psalms, every human emotion is to
be found.

How long, O Lord, wilt Thou utterly forget me?
How long withl Thu hids Thy face from me?
“How long shall I harbor sorrow in my soul -
grief in my heart, day after day?” Psalm 2

---

Oddly enough, one can no more “prove” that God exists,
than one can prove that He doesn’t. [This is unfair to an atheist -
who may be called on to prove that God does not exist.]
In the realm of sheer logic - one is not called upon
to “prove” a negative. And one does not have to.
So when I hear people of faith - lording it over the
“atheist” - it causes a wry smile. No one has to
“prove” a negative.

To say that God does not exist - is sheer assertion.
To say that He does exist - is sheer assertion, as well.
For the beliver, it is a matter of faith.

A Christian asserts claims, about the nature of reality.
These assertions are faith-based. They are not ‘proveable.’
OTOH, to me - anyone who can look around at the
complexity of the universe and of humankind -
while claiming that this is all random, in nature - a product
of ‘nature,’ or big bang, or pure, sheer chance…
That, to me, requires more of a ‘belief system’
than faith ‘systems’ do.

Atheism cannot answer the simple question:
“How did the ‘matter’ which exploded with a bang
get there *to begin with.” *
[Read a brief aricle, yesterday, which stated that
some scientists are on the verge of explaining
what has been termed the “God factor.”]

I’ve been waiting for 40 years, for conclusive “proof” regarding -
the ‘missing link.’ To me, much of this is agenda-driven “science.”
I pay it little attention, while having great respect for the
scientific method, per se.
[Started out as a chemistry major, and switched to
philosophy.]

The claims of agenda-driven science, seem to boil down to -
"We’re on the verge of !..
Right. *Surrrre *you are.

reen12

Thank you for the response, reen. I could write an entire book on the issues of why I am questioning the existence of God, but that wouldn’t necessary. I have tried talking with people about it and nobody seems to have the answers to any of my questions. As I’ve said earlier, I’m not looking for proof. I’m just looking for how I’m supposed to come to believe. I’ve done all the things that everybody is supposed to do: pray, go to Mass, go to Confession, go to Adoration, go on retreats, spend time talking with God, try to live a holy life, etc. Yet, none of that seems to work for me. Most people who believe in God can’t quantify it in words, but they just have that gut feeling that God exists. They may not be able to write it down on paper, but it makes sense to them inside their heads. I just don’t have that. If anything, my gut feeling is that God doesn’t exist. But I’m scared I’m wrong, so I try and try. I pray and ask for faith. I go to Mass and frequent the sacraments. And yet nothing seems to work. So now I’m just tired of it all.

 

[reen12]

quote: Awake

Thank you for the response, reen. I could write an entire book on the issues of why I am questioning the existence of God, but that wouldn’t necessary. I have tried talking with people about it and nobody seems to have the answers to any of my questions. As I’ve said earlier, I’m not looking for proof. I’m just looking for how I’m supposed to come to believe. I’ve done all the things that everybody is supposed to do: pray, go to Mass, go to Confession, go to Adoration, go on retreats, spend time talking with God, try to live a holy life, etc. Yet, none of that seems to work for me. Most people who believe in God can’t quantify it in words, but they just have that gut feeling that God exists. They may not be able to write it down on paper, but it makes sense to them inside their heads. I just don’t have that. If anything, my gut feeling is that God doesn’t exist. But I’m scared I’m wrong, so I try and try. I pray and ask for faith. I go to Mass and frequent the sacraments. And yet nothing seems to work. So now I’m just tired of it all.

Oh my dear Awake. Would you accept my assurance
that God loves you very much, as you experience this
gut feeling that He does not exist.

Could you consider that God loves you very much because
you have a sense of integrity, in that you say plainly
what is in your mind and heart - not willing to settle for
‘answers’ that do not speak to your need.

I would think that most of those who post on a Catholic
forum accept the existence of God. For whatever various
‘reasons,’ they believe.

As you work toward finding an answer that will satisfy
your mind, heart and soul, please do not think that you
are alone, in this experience. The great Christian author,
C.S. Lewis, thought that there was no God.
He commented, later - when he was asked how he had
made the trip from no belief - to belief:
“I got on my motor bike, intending to visit the zoo.”
“When I started off, I was an atheist. When I arrived,
I believed in God.”

I don’t think that C.S. Lewis could ever satisfactorily
“explain” what had happened to him. He wasn’t raging -
in atheistic denial of deity. He just didn’t believe that
God existed.

I’m older, now, and - after 60+ years - I have no firm belief that Jesus was
who he said he was. Yet I am able to pray to the God of Israel.

I think it was some of the “followers” of Christ -
2000 years later - that put me off of Christianity.
For, to me, the Church ended up in the same legalistic mindset
that her Founder excoriated, 2,000 years ago.

I so often hear people speak of their ‘feelings,’ in terms of
prayer. I often hear how uplifted others feel, in praying.
Yet I rather doubt that Jesus felt uplifted - and “close”
to His Father - as He was dying, in agony, on a cross.
Crying out “My God…why have You abandoned Me?”

The whole mindset of judging a “prayer session” as
'successful" - when one feels God’s presence, makes me queasy.
Mother Teresa of Calcutta felt the lack of His presence - for decades.
Yet she went about, relieving suffering, in any way that she could.
She followed her Master, even when she didn’t feel anything but a sense of darkness.

I’m not much on feeling God’s presence, in prayer.
And you know why? Because God comes like a
slip of air - when one least expects this. Not necessarliy when
one is earnestly praying. But when one isn’t thinking about anything at all -
God is suddenly present.
“The Spirit blows where He will.”

The only reason that I am still ready to consider that
Jesus was the Son of God, and God Himself, is that He
did *not *say: “You will have wonderful feelings, when you pray.”
“You will feel close to Me.”
He did say: “Pick up your cross, and follow Me…”

reen12

 

[InLight247]

And what happens if you didn’t find a parking space?

Then I know other people need the parking spaces more than I do.
I can park far away and walk. And walking is good for me. I still thank Him. Like I mentioned earlier, his way is always higher than my way.

I was just using “parking space”, a little thing in daily life, to explain my point. My point is with an attitude of gratitude, we will know how to count our blessings. When we know how to count our blessings, not only we’ll receive more new blessings, we also know more clearly that God exists and He cares.

Don’t you have many blessings in your life? Your life, your health, your family, your friends, your school or job, etc… Where do you think these blessings come from?

 

[cheeto1]

I am trying to have faith but continually failing. I wish I felt joy when I pray like you do.

Well, I’m sorry to tell you this, but you can’t try for faith. It just
gets given to you. No one can say, “I did X,Y, and Z, and I got
faith”.

 

[shannyk]

I haven’t seen any miracles.

Awake,

This statement really stands out. Can you honestly say that in your whole life, you have NEVER witnessed a miracle?

I don’t know how old you are, but it would be impossible that as an adult, you have never witnessed one. The more likely scenario is that you don’t recognize them.

Perhaps, it is not God that is the problem. Perhaps it is the fact that you feel you seem to feel resentful or left out because you don’t have some showy miraculous tale to testify about to to others. There are miracles, innumerable, occurring at this very second.

I challenge you to come up with ONE miracle that you have witnessed in your lifetime.

 

[reen12]

Good grief. Now it is the seeker’s fault.
How silly of me, not to have noticed. :juggle:

Let me get this straight.
If one has not captured a miracle, in a butterfly’s net…
one is somehow… lacking?

Some more of that much-touted “Christian charity,”
**sans doute **? *
“But Lord - I didn’t even know You. When did I treat You with mercy?”
When you helped one who was seeking Me, to find Me -
you treated Me with mercy.

reen12

 

[reen12]

It’s good to get these things straight. :juggle:

Make note:
Try to catch a miracle in a butterfly’s net.

This is critical, apparently - to one’s bona fides -
as a seeker of God.

The Founder of Christianity said:

“You see miracles, and you believe.
Blessed are those who will not have seen such miracles,
and yet believe.”

I’m just an observer. I don’t know if Jesus is Who He said He was.
But I do wish that those who do accept Him as God/Son of God,
would quote what He *did *say.

Observing the Passing Scene
[reen12]

 

[jmeyer3131]

Perhaps you can tell me what else helped to change your situation. You said you’ve had doubts for a decade and just recently you had your first religious experience. Was it a gradual shift, or did you suddenly have an epiphany? Other than just hanging in there, what do you attribute it to?

It was both. There were some gradual changes, things that opened me up to the possiblity that Christians were right, but I still couldn’t say I believed. In fact, I had gotten to the point where I was telling a friend that I didn’t know what more I could want because all the evidence was there, but still I doubted.

Then, February 21, there was an epiphany, but it was completely tied in with the 10 years of doubt and learning.

To explain the things I did on this forum, and to tell you about what happened on February 21, would take many posts. I’m fine with that if others are helped by it, but I don’t particularly want to open myself up to criticisms for my doubts or the way I went about trying to resolve them.

I do know exactly what you mean, though, about wanting reasons to believe. I remember, too, many criticisms from people I was turning to for help. Others were willing to help, but didn’t understand why I couldn’t just make a decision to believe.

I’m not sure what to do from here. If you and others think hearing about my journey would be helpful, I can post here. I’d have to think about it, though. I don’t want something that has been incredible for me to be criticized publicly.

 

[jmeyer3131]

The only reason that I am still ready to consider that
Jesus was the Son of God, and God Himself, is that He
did *not *say: “You will have wonderful feelings, when you pray.”
“You will feel close to Me.”
He did say: “Pick up your cross, and follow Me…”

reen12

I really love this.

Reen, you are a compassionate person.

 

[reen12]

jmeyer3131

I really love this.

I’m glad, thank you.

For the lambs, in this world, God protects them,
by enfolding them in the palm of His hand.
He “tempers the wind, for the shorn lamb.”

reen12

 

[Awake]

quote: Awake

Oh my dear Awake. Would you accept my assurance
that God loves you very much, as you experience this
gut feeling that He does not exist.

Could you consider that God loves you very much because
you have a sense of integrity, in that you say plainly
what is in your mind and heart - not willing to settle for
‘answers’ that do not speak to your need.

I would think that most of those who post on a Catholic
forum accept the existence of God. For whatever various
‘reasons,’ they believe.

As you work toward finding an answer that will satisfy
your mind, heart and soul, please do not think that you
are alone, in this experience. The great Christian author,
C.S. Lewis, thought that there was no God.
He commented, later - when he was asked how he had
made the trip from no belief - to belief:
“I got on my motor bike, intending to visit the zoo.”
“When I started off, I was an atheist. When I arrived,
I believed in God.”

I don’t think that C.S. Lewis could ever satisfactorily
“explain” what had happened to him. He wasn’t raging -
in atheistic denial of deity. He just didn’t believe that
God existed.

I’m older, now, and - after 60+ years - I have no firm belief that Jesus was
who he said he was. Yet I am able to pray to the God of Israel.

I think it was some of the “followers” of Christ -
2000 years later - that put me off of Christianity.
For, to me, the Church ended up in the same legalistic mindset
that her Founder excoriated, 2,000 years ago.

I so often hear people speak of their ‘feelings,’ in terms of
prayer. I often hear how uplifted others feel, in praying.
Yet I rather doubt that Jesus felt uplifted - and “close”
to His Father - as He was dying, in agony, on a cross.
Crying out “My God…why have You abandoned Me?”

The whole mindset of judging a “prayer session” as
'successful" - when one feels God’s presence, makes me queasy.
Mother Teresa of Calcutta felt the lack of His presence - for decades.
Yet she went about, relieving suffering, in any way that she could.
She followed her Master, even when she didn’t feel anything but a sense of darkness.

I’m not much on feeling God’s presence, in prayer.
And you know why? Because God comes like a
slip of air - when one least expects this. Not necessarliy when
one is earnestly praying. But when one isn’t thinking about anything at all -
God is suddenly present.
“The Spirit blows where He will.”

The only reason that I am still ready to consider that
Jesus was the Son of God, and God Himself, is that He
did *not *say: “You will have wonderful feelings, when you pray.”
“You will feel close to Me.”
He did say: “Pick up your cross, and follow Me…”

reen12

I don’t know. Hopefully one day it will click for me. Until then, I just don’t know…