TLM on the way ??????

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Well, actually, the SSPX has always said that they had a case of necessity because they weren’t allowed the TLM so the fact that there was no “universal indult” was the reason they think they have necessity. A true universal indult would solve this. The problem I forsee, if the original article is correct, is that there would still be bishops forbidding its use. The other problem I forsee is that the SSPX is already told they may not attend indult Masses so, for some of the SSPX devotees, a universal indult won’t make a difference. I’m sure there will be a “schism” of the schism at that point.

 

[JDHallKY]

I am all for greater availability of the TLM, but I would worry if it spread too far. We have such a problem with liturgical abuse as it is, and if most larger parishes have a TLM at one of their Sunday masses, then I can see abuses with the NO becoming more prevalent.

Imagine this, if you will:

Parishioner: Father, I was very disturbed by the fact that you stood on your head during the Eucharistic Prayer this morning. I know it made the kids laugh, but it seemed a bit irreverant.

Priest: Oh, you’re one of those radical traditionalists. Our TLM is at 11:00. If you like to live in the past, see ya there.

Seriously, though, one of the wonderful things about the TLM, in my opinion, is that the Mass was the same everywhere in the world. It was a marvelous symbol of unity. But now, we will be increasing the variety of ways of celebrating Mass even within parishes!

But, that being said, I won’t get too upset over this until I have strong reason to. Perhaps greater access to the TLM will increase respect for the liturgy among greater numbers of the faithful. That would be a wonderful development.

 

[Saint_Michael]

IF the latin mass came back for Catholics I think it would end up doing more harm than good at this point. You have entire generations of Catholics that would feel lost and confused by the TLM. If you aren’t a hard core Catholic, and have no clue what the TLM is, the TLM seems like a rote ritual and little more. I think a lot of Catholics would leave to get fed in actual English elsewhere.

There’s an expression “you can never go back”, I think it applies in this case.

 

[AquinaSavio]

IF the latin mass came back for Catholics I think it would end up doing more harm than good at this point. You have entire generations of Catholics that would feel lost and confused by the TLM. If you aren’t a hard core Catholic, and have no clue what the TLM is, the TLM seems like a rote ritual and little more. I think a lot of Catholics would leave to get fed in actual English elsewhere.

There’s an expression “you can never go back”, I think it applies in this case.

The return of the TLM could inspire people to do a little more research into the Mass. If we want to understand what is happening, we have to study about the individual parts of the Mass. It isn’t too hard to remember what important parts are (such as the Agnus Dei, Orate Fratres, etc…) after you’ve studied it. If people leave just to hear English, that’s a pretty sorry excuse, considering Missals contain the words in English.

 

[Saint_Michael]

The return of the TLM could inspire people to do a little more research into the Mass. If we want to understand what is happening, we have to study about the individual parts of the Mass…

I agree with that, but the vast majority of Catholics are nominal Catholics at best and have no interest in studying the intricacies of the Mass. My mother, brother, my wife when I was Catholic would go here and there but never really cared about learning anything. These are the people who will leave for a Lutheran or Episcopalian Church, unfortunately that’s the vast majority of Catholics.

I really don’t see the TLM making any sort of huge come back at all.

 

[a_cermak]

This seems nice. It always seemed awful unfair that they just stole the old mass away and changed everything all at once on the laity. By having one of the masses per week be Tridentine, it could maybe help the older crowd to have the mass they remember back.

 

[TradyDaddy]

Sometimes I wonder about what it was like back after the Council of Trent.

How many people longed to have “their mass” restored to them after the Pope mandated a change in the liturgy so that everyone did what Rome did.

I bet it was different than now as there was no media or mass communications like we have today but I do know that if they did have what we have today that the response would most likely be the same.

The difference was that Pope St. Pius V codified the existing Mass and eliminated some territorial additions whereas the Novus Ordo was a completely fabricated service.

More importantly, in Quo Primum, the Pope stated that that Mass was NOT to be changed and that it was allowed in "perpetuity. It IS the Mass of all time and no validly ordained Priest needs “permission” to say it.

 

[VociMike]

IF the latin mass came back for Catholics I think it would end up doing more harm than good at this point. You have entire generations of Catholics that would feel lost and confused by the TLM. If you aren’t a hard core Catholic, and have no clue what the TLM is, the TLM seems like a rote ritual and little more. I think a lot of Catholics would leave to get fed in actual English elsewhere.

There’s an expression “you can never go back”, I think it applies in this case.

Whatever happens, the Mass in the vernacular will continue, and will undoubtedly be the “standard” Mass in parishes. Catholics will still be able to get fed in actual English the same way they have for decades.

 

[a_cermak]

Whatever happens, the Mass in the vernacular will continue, and will undoubtedly be the “standard” Mass in parishes. Catholics will still be able to get fed in actual English the same way they have for decades.

To say nothing of Lithuanian, Polish, Czech, Spanish, Tagalog, and sign language all of which are languages in which mass is offered in my immediate neighborhood (I’m sure there are other languages offered farther away).

Would going back to the Latin eliminate the need for all of these services (well except for the sign language which is simulataneously offered in English anyway).

 

[Saint_Michael]

Whatever happens, the Mass in the vernacular will continue, and will undoubtedly be the “standard” Mass in parishes. Catholics will still be able to get fed in actual English the same way they have for decades.

Agreed, I was thinking in terms of the people hoping for a complete transformation back to the TLM. I bet having the TLM common in every Parish will allow the devout to worship together easier. I feel the devout Catholic will seek out the TLM moreso than the nominal Catholic.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

As a future (God willing!) priest, all I can say is . . .

DEO GRATIAS

or in the vernacular, YESSSSS!

 

[8640]

Of course it is

The same Mass which has sustained and created countless Saints in its milennia of existence - truely wonderful.

The Tridentine Mass is not a 1000 years old - try 500, which, I’ll grant you is a long time. But don’t give it more than it is due.

 

[Unfinished]

IF the latin mass came back for Catholics I think it would end up doing more harm than good at this point. You have entire generations of Catholics that would feel lost and confused by the TLM. If you aren’t a hard core Catholic, and have no clue what the TLM is, the TLM seems like a rote ritual and little more. I think a lot of Catholics would leave to get fed in actual English elsewhere.

There’s an expression “you can never go back”, I think it applies in this case.

I concur, on some level. No one can know for sure how the people would react. I, for one, would be overjoyed. I have always just wanted the option of going - but the issue is much deeper than that.

The rubrics of the TLM are quite strict, and that encourages obedience. However, it seems many of the priests and laity think the Novus Ordo rubrics are very lenient - which is not the case. And when I go to Latin Mass, then back to the Novus Ordo, I look at the things which caused the decline of reverence. For example, women not wearing head coverings anymore. It may not seem like a big deal, but it is just the start.

The priest and acolytes genuflect at least two dozen times to the Real Presence of Jesus Christ. They do it at least twice just lighting the candles on the altar. Now, at a lot of churches, I feel lucky just to have the altar boys (girls!) bow before Jesus Christ. Many don’t even bother. And the thought of the altar servers on both knees, bowing, tracing the sign of the cross…the acolytes at the Latin Mass know who they are bowing to!

The strict liturgy is what makes the Latin Mass serve its purpose so well in today’s world. No, I doubt we can ever go back. I often wonder how the Church would be today if we had never changed. Maybe priests would just be abusing the Latin Mass. Who knows?

While an indult may not be a solution, it is a start. Even if it doesn’t happen (again!) the Holy Father needs to tighten the reigns on some of his bishops - HARD. Now, I am not the Pope, and I can’t imagine how hard it can be. But I think I know a good place to start - the prayers after Mass. Instead of rushing out of the church, we could begin by the priest and acolytes kneeling on the altar, and the laity, and reciting a few prayers like is commonplace at the end of a Latin liturgy.

This whole drama is my biggest issue - but it is also the fire under my butt to make me want to become a priest. Next month when I get alone with our new Bishop I may ask him a few questions. Orthodoxy and tradition needs to be taught religiously. (Excuse the pun.)

(And please excuse the rant. - Yay for Latin Mass! I hope it’s true this time around.)

 

[Saint_Michael]

The Tridentine Mass is not a 1000 years old - try 500, which, I’ll grant you is a long time. But don’t give it more than it is due.

Parts of the TLM are ~ 1,600 years old.

 

[AquinaSavio]

I concur, on some level. No one can know for sure how the people would react. I, for one, would be overjoyed. I have always just wanted the option of going - but the issue is much deeper than that.

The rubrics of the TLM are quite strict, and that encourages obedience. However, it seems many of the priests and laity think the Novus Ordo rubrics are very lenient - which is not the case. And when I go to Latin Mass, then back to the Novus Ordo, I look at the things which caused the decline of reverence. For example, women not wearing head coverings anymore. It may not seem like a big deal, but it is just the start.

The priest and acolytes genuflect at least two dozen times to the Real Presence of Jesus Christ. They do it at least twice just lighting the candles on the altar. Now, at a lot of churches, I feel lucky just to have the altar boys (girls!) bow before Jesus Christ. Many don’t even bother. And the thought of the altar servers on both knees, bowing, tracing the sign of the cross…the acolytes at the Latin Mass know who they are bowing to!

The strict liturgy is what makes the Latin Mass serve its purpose so well in today’s world. No, I doubt we can ever go back. I often wonder how the Church would be today if we had never changed. Maybe priests would just be abusing the Latin Mass. Who knows?

While an indult may not be a solution, it is a start. Even if it doesn’t happen (again!) the Holy Father needs to tighten the reigns on some of his bishops - HARD. Now, I am not the Pope, and I can’t imagine how hard it can be. But I think I know a good place to start - the prayers after Mass. Instead of rushing out of the church, we could begin by the priest and acolytes kneeling on the altar, and the laity, and reciting a few prayers like is commonplace at the end of a Latin liturgy.

This whole drama is my biggest issue - but it is also the fire under my butt to make me want to become a priest. Next month when I get alone with our new Bishop I may ask him a few questions. Orthodoxy and tradition needs to be taught religiously. (Excuse the pun.)

(And please excuse the rant. - Yay for Latin Mass! I hope it’s true this time around.)

 

[AJV]

Parts of the TLM are ~ 1,600 years old.

[usual pedantic post]
Let’s see, in the Ordinary of the Mass:
The prayer ‘Aufer a nobis’, though it was not used in the same context as it is in the TLM.
At the Offertory, the prayer ‘Deus qui humanae’ though again it was not used in the same context, and was originally there for, I think, Christmas.
Parts of the Canon. Canon fully in place by the 6th century with variations in saints names and not all the parts said at every Mass.
And of course, the Sanctus and Preface (some Prefaces closely resemble or are practically identical to early ones particularly in the Gregorian Sacramentary, though of course, the earlier Gelasian and Leonine books contain an abundance of prefaces ).
Gloria (though it was only at Christmas in modified form, then later at Easter, then later only by Bishops for Sundays and only between the 9th-11th century by priests at most times as it is now)

From the time of St. Gregory the Great additionally:
The Kyrie (though again slightly different at times usually as part of a litany)

From the 8th century, the Agnus Dei though not in similar form as today.

Of course things like the Epistle and Gospel were there but the prayers connected with them are of later date. Same thing goes wiht the fraction and the Kiss of Peace, etc. The Collects, Secret and Postcommunion were also there though of course, not all with the same texts as in the TLM.

Have I missed something out? [/usual pedantic post]

Would it be too argumentative to note that except for the first point and part of the second and part of the embolism of the ‘Our Father’, all these are present in the ‘Novus Ordo’ also?

 

[Saint_Michael]

Would it be too argumentative to note that except for the first point and part of the second and part of the embolism of the ‘Our Father’, all these are present in the ‘Novus Ordo’ also?

Not at all I don’t even care, I’m not even a Catholic anymore, I was simply saying parts of the TLM were ~ 1,600 years old, I enver said anything about the Novus Ordo, because I don’t care about the debate really one way or another.

 

[whosebob]

Not at all I don’t even care, I’m not even a Catholic anymore …

JMJ + OBT​

Starting right now, I’m praying for your full return to profession and practice of the Catholic Faith. And I’m asking the Blessed Virgin to “second me” in those prayers.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

More importantly, in Quo Primum, the Pope stated that that Mass was NOT to be changed and that it was allowed in "perpetuity. It IS the Mass of all time and no validly ordained Priest needs “permission” to say it.

And this is a nonsense argument and any one who knows Catholic Teachings knows this. No pope can bind a later pope in matters of discipline and the form of the Mass is nothing more than a discipline.

If this was so then all the popes after Pius V who made changes to the Mass are also in error and the Mass that everyone calls the TLM is not the Mass of Pius V. It was changed many times, the first time was only 34 years after by Pope Clement III.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The Tridentine Mass is not a 1000 years old - try 500, which, I’ll grant you is a long time. But don’t give it more than it is due.

Not even that old, try 1962 for the TLM as celebrated today. See my above post. The first changes to the Mass that Pope Pius V put out was only 34 years after it was promulgated.