To a Roman Catholic are Protestants good Christians?

[TNT]

The understanding that I have of this dogma is that they may actually be a part of the Church, just not completely. So they may be saved by God’s grace if they are following the moral laws that they do have knowledge of.

I really have no idea what church that DOGMA comes from.

I have been told this however:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that **nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

**I also heard this:

Pope Pius IX, First Vatican Council, Sess. 3, Chap. 2 on Revelation, 1870, ex cathedra: “Hence, also, that understanding of its sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained, which Holy Mother Church has once declared; and there must never be a recession from that meaning under the specious name of a deeper understanding.”
And again:
Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (#7), Aug. 15, 1832: “… nothing of the things appointed ought to be diminished; nothing changed; nothing added; but they must be preserved both as regards expression and meaning.”

And just for continuity:

Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum (# 14), May 5, 1824:
“It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members… by divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism… **This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church.”

**And recently on Church “members”:
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII
ON THE MISTICAL BODY OF CHRIST
1943

1. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. “For in one spirit” says the Apostle, “were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free.” As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith. And therefore, if a man refuse to hear the Church, let him be considered - so the Lord commands - as a heathen and a publican. It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.
   So, what Church is this? The Church of our Fathers or the Not?

 

[Unitas]

I’m not saying they are, because I personally do not know.

What I do know however is that Extra Ecclesiam nulla sallus is a Dogma, and therefore infallible. I am defending this Dogma against everyone who says that it is no longer applicable, or has been reversed, or whatever. My concern at the moment is not what it means, but that it is still an infallible statement of the Church and to deny it incurrs automatic excommunication (and I can say for a fact that those who die excommunicate do go to Hell).

Can this Dogma be interpreted or understood in ways other than it’s literal understanding? Yes, of course. But as to if any of those are correct or incorrect, I cannot say.

So my point is that this is still a Dogma, to consciously deny it is to be excommunicated (as with any Dogma), and that the 1984 Catechism (like all Catechisms) is not infallible in itself- it has articles that are part of the Infallible Universal Magisterium, it also has articles that are part of the Fallible Ordinary Magisterium and this is one of them.

Ok then, so then you must admit, fallible or not, that the CCC entry on extra ecclesiam nulla sallus is well within the boundaries of the dogma, correct?

No true Catholic here is denying the dogma is incorrect, like you said that’s impossible. There’s just the implication from you that you do not think the CCC is keeping very good fidelity to the dogma. I’m just wondering which parts of the CCC’s entry do you think is falling short of the dogma. You wouldn’t be stressing the CCC’s fallibility if you felt the entry was perfectly in line with the dogma, so I’m just wondering why.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Almost 2000 years of tradition says there is no salvation outside the Church; an infallible Dogma, that has been affirmed by many Popes and Dogmatic councils since it was first defined, says there is no salvation outside the Church.

What about people who died over 2000 years ago - is it impossible for them to find salvation just because there was no Catholic Church in existance then.
St. Peter tells us that Christ descended into Hades to preach to those who had been waiting since the days of Noah?
Perhaps it is that the Catholic Church is the only means that we know of through which people may find salvation - but as always what is impossible for us is not impossible for God.

 

[rr1213]

Therefore, the passages in the CC that deal with salvation outside the Church are part of the fallible Ordinary Magisterium, since they are still teachings, but not in accordance with established tradition, in particular the Dogma that there is no Salvation Outside the Church.

If what you are saying is true, then why has the Church decided to lie about salvation–the most important point of the faith–in the Catechism? Why would the Body of Christ, the One True Holy and Apostolic Church purposely espouse and distribute a teaching tool that teaches falsehood?

Either my comments above (made purposefully inflamatory to make a point) are true or your viewpoint is incorrect.

 

[MrS]

Oh I know, it just seems caesar has a very different idea of what “outside the church there is no salvation” means than the CCC, the article you linked, and accepted Catholic belief.

I’m just trying to pin down exactly what he means. I want to hear it from him.

Hey, give him a break… he is very young, but very sincere. The Church continues to grow and be better understood… and it is 2000 years old…

.

 

[Caesar]

Look, I’m not saying that all non-Catholics are going to burn in Hell, but I’m saying they arent either. All I am saying is that it is Dogma that there is no Salvation outside the Church and that is what the Church teaches whether the 1984 Catechism accurately teaches it or not.

Catholics are required to accept this Dogma. It is not a choice. How you choose to understand it is another thing altougather- although I think TNT gave a pretty good description of how the Church has always taught this Dogma in an above post.

Of course there are other alternatives to having the virtuous non-Catholics burn in Hell, but that does not infringe on the Dogma that only Catholics are saved. Perhaps we should not laugh at the idea of Limbo so quickly.

But it doesnt really matter, because if you really want to help your protestant brethren gain Salvation, then it is far better to pray for their conversion to the Catholic faith then to argue over the meaning of a Dogma and abandon yours.

 

[mikew262]

Ok, please show me where exactly the Dogma was ever reversed? Has the Church declared it invalid? Null and void?

You are just believing what suits you. You are taking a Catechism, which is not infallible in this regard, and throwing it in the face of an infallible Dogma.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.

The CCC is there to make the dogma and other teachings of the Church easy to understand. Do you actually think the Vatican approved Catechism would put out something that contradicts Church teachings?

 

[StevenFrancis]

I really dont understand what is so hard about this. There is a Dogma, which is an infallible teaching of Holy Mother Church. It doesnt matter if This Rock magazine ignore Dogma; it doesnt even matter if the CCC ignores the Dogma.

Can one person then please, please, explain to me why we are discarding infallible Dogma in favor of a fallible Catechism in this discussion?

Hi. I’m new here, but in looking back through this whole thread, it seems to me that a lot of folks HAVE explained this to you just fine. The Church is pretty clear throughout it’s teachings that people are only accountable for what they know. Those in most danger of no salvation then, would be those who have been fully apprised of the truth, and have understood it on a cognizant level. And have then, for whatever reason, made a conscious decision to turn away from it. For instance a lapsed Catholic who was well educated in the teachings, yet consciously refuses to ever come back to the Church, and then dies without being in a state of grace, or even attempting contrition. They would definitely be considered outside the Church. Even then…we admit that God makes that final decision. And this is a God who IS love. Who wants his children…all his children in a perfect loving family in the fullness of time. Even when discussing Dogma, you need to look at the big picture. Not just focus on one article. You need the context of the whole to understand the supreme love of God.

Here’s a nice little article snippet that has been referred to before in this thread. I’m pasting a portion of it so that you don’t just dismiss it out of hand, and not click on the link.

Peace, my brother.
…

Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus does not mean that only faithful Roman Catholics can be saved. The Church has NEVER taught that. So where does that leave non-Catholics and non-Christians?

Jesus told his followers, “I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd” (John 10:16). After his Resurrection, Jesus gave the threefold command to Peter: “Feed my lambs. . . . Tend my sheep. . . . Feed my sheep” (John 21:15–17). The word translated as “tend” (poimaine) means “to direct” or “to superintend”—in other words, “to govern.” So although there are sheep that are not of Christ’s fold, it is through the Church that they are able to receive his salvation.

People who have never had an opportunity to hear of Christ and his Church—and those Christians whose minds have been closed to the truth of the Church by their conditioning—are not necessarily cut off from God’s mercy. Vatican II phrases the doctrine in these terms:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their consciences—those too may achieve eternal salvation (LG 16).

Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery (Gaudium et Spes 22).

The Church speaks of “implicit desire” or “longing” that can exist in the hearts of those who seek God but are ignorant of the means of his grace. If a person longs for salvation but does not know the divinely established means of salvation, he is said to have an implicit desire for membership in the Church. Non-Catholic Christians know Christ, but they do not know his Church. In their desire to serve him, they implicitly desire to be members of his Church. Non-Christians can be saved, said John Paul, if they seek God with “a sincere heart.” In that seeking they are “related” to Christ and to his body the Church (address to the CDF).

On the other hand, the Church has long made it clear that if a person rejects the Church with full knowledge and consent, he puts his soul in danger:
They cannot be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it (cf. LG 14).
The Catholic Church is “the single and exclusive channel by which the truth and grace of Christ enter our world of space and time” (Karl Adam, The Spirit of Catholicism, 179). Those who do not know the Church, even those who fight against it, can receive these gifts if they honestly seek God and his truth. But, Adam says, “though it be not the Catholic Church itself that hands them the bread of truth and grace, yet it is Catholic bread that they eat.” And when they eat of it, “without knowing it or willing it” they are “incorporated in the supernatural substance of the Church.”

 

[Caesar]

mrs_abbott:

Say what you will but it’s not Christ’s way of thinking. The Bible shows many instances where he exercises mercy to the sinner. There was no religion then. To barr someone from Heaven simply because they’re not Catholic is against God.

Here,here!!

So you believe that Catholic Dogma can be against God now?

 

[Caesar]

Hi. I’m new here, but in looking back through this whole thread, it seems to me that a lot of folks HAVE explained this to you just fine. The Church is pretty clear throughout it’s teachings that people are only accountable for what they know. Those in most danger of no salvation then, would be those who have been fully apprised of the truth, and have understood it on a cognizant level. And have then, for whatever reason, made a conscious decision to turn away from it. For instance a lapsed Catholic who was well educated in the teachings, yet consciously refuses to ever come back to the Church, and then dies without being in a state of grace, or even attempting contrition. They would definitely be considered outside the Church. Even then…we admit that God makes that final decision. And this is a God who IS love. Who wants his children…all his children in a perfect loving family in the fullness of time. Even when discussing Dogma, you need to look at the big picture. Not just focus on one article. You need the context of the whole to understand the supreme love of God.

Here’s a nice little article snippet that has been referred to before in this thread. I’m pasting a portion of it so that you don’t just dismiss it out of hand, and not click on the link.

Peace, my brother.

Ok, like I said before, I know full well that there are other ways to understand the Dogma then it’s literal understanding. By main argument is against those who will say that the Dogma is incorrect or not applicable for whatever reason, and the people who just ignore it because it doesnt suit them.

 

[asheeha]

I have to be honest I have run the gambit of emotions while reading this thread. I am new to this whole Catholic church thing and it truly has been a detective story a horror story and finally a love story.
But what you are saying to me is that for me to be a true Catholic I have to acknowledge that the very people who taught me how to love my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who birthed His kindness and selfless love in me are damned to hell.
My heroes of the faith, that have given their lives for the gospel of Christ quite literally, who have been the hands and feet of Jesus to those who have never heard before, those who have been the very image of loving your enemy and seen the fruit of their labor and the working of the Holy Spirit in miracles similar to those of the apostles and watched whole tribes come to know Jesus as their savior and lives of anger and death changed to lives of love and grace.
These people are damned to hell…
This makes no sense to me and I am grieved to the core at the idea.
I do not think that I can believe this… Could it be that the Magesterium understands that the schism of the Orthodox and the Protestant Reformation wasn’t solely the fault of one party? One reason I’ve come to believe that the Catholic Church is the Church Christ instituted is because her leaders seem to be willing to actually claim some responsibility and I see Her, alone, actively trying to gather the fold together as one body not simply in a spiritual sense but a truly physical complete sense.
The dream that everybody has let die is alive in the Catholic Church…the idea that we can be one in the body.
All I can say is that I am grateful that the Magesterium sees the work of the Holy Spirit and does not reject it.
Be careful…God looks at the heart of a man…this is a huge part of the message of the Gospel. Spouting out that all who are outside the Church are bound to hell is more likely to keep people out than bring them to the full understanding of what the Church really is. Whether you want to admit it or not your Protestant brothers and sisters really do have the grace of God with them. The Spirit has been testified to in their lives.
Forgive me if I have been too personal in such a heady discourse. But I am sincere in my search and as intellectual as you want to make it it is quite personal. When I think that according to the Tradition of the Catholic Church that the Spirit of Christ that has proven Himself faithful for so many of my years as a Protestant and now seems to be calling me to Catholicism is what? A lie because it didn’t come directly through the Catholic Church? This is more than I can bear.

Grace and Peace be with you.

 

[KindredSoul]

I have to be honest I have run the gambit of emotions while reading this thread. I am new to this whole Catholic church thing and it truly has been a detective story a horror story and finally a love story.
But what you are saying to me is that for me to be a true Catholic I have to acknowledge that the very people who taught me how to love my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who birthed His kindness and selfless love in me are damned to hell.
My heroes of the faith, that have given their lives for the gospel of Christ quite literally, who have been the hands and feet of Jesus to those who have never heard before, those who have been the very image of loving your enemy and seen the fruit of their labor and the working of the Holy Spirit in miracles similar to those of the apostles and watched whole tribes come to know Jesus as their savior and lives of anger and death changed to lives of love and grace.
These people are damned to hell…
This makes no sense to me and I am grieved to the core at the idea.
I do not think that I can believe this… Could it be that the Magesterium understands that the schism of the Orthodox and the Protestant Reformation wasn’t solely the fault of one party? One reason I’ve come to believe that the Catholic Church is the Church Christ instituted is because her leaders seem to be willing to actually claim some responsibility and I see Her, alone, actively trying to gather the fold together as one body not simply in a spiritual sense but a truly physical complete sense.
The dream that everybody has let die is alive in the Catholic Church…the idea that we can be one in the body.
All I can say is that I am grateful that the Magesterium sees the work of the Holy Spirit and does not reject it.
Be careful…God looks at the heart of a man…this is a huge part of the message of the Gospel. Spouting out that all who are outside the Church are bound to hell is more likely to keep people out than bring them to the full understanding of what the Church really is. Whether you want to admit it or not your Protestant brothers and sisters really do have the grace of God with them. The Spirit has been testified to in their lives.
Forgive me if I have been too personal in such a heady discourse. But I am sincere in my search and as intellectual as you want to make it it is quite personal. When I think that according to the Tradition of the Catholic Church that the Spirit of Christ that has proven Himself faithful for so many of my years as a Protestant and now seems to be calling me to Catholicism is what? A lie because it didn’t come directly through the Catholic Church? This is more than I can bear.

Grace and Peace be with you.

Asheeha, I’m glad that you found your way to the Catholic Church! I’m new too, in fact probably newer than you (see my Proile) to Catholicism, though I love the Church very much.

I don’t believe that you have anything to worry about, Asheeha. I had your very same isues and that’s in fact what kept me from the Church so long. I thought that all Catholics thought that even sincere Protestants couldn’t be saved. It’s the only thing I knew couldn’t be true. Then I realized that the doctrine of “Outside the Church there is no salvation”, though undeniably true, doesn’t necessarily mean that anyone who’s not consciously an official, on the record, Catholic isn’t going to have salvation. This is the Catechism’s take on the Dogma (the Catechism doesn’t contradict the doctrine, contrary to what some imply).

The Church is stronger and more far reaching, perhaps, than the visible bounderies, which, for me, is a compliment to the strength and boundlessness of the Catholic Church, not a hindrance.

Based on the Catechism, I believe that, in order to truly place themselves outside the Church, Protestants must recognize or suspicion the Truth in the Church, and refuse to believe it or give it a chance simply because of their own personal bias. This may well be true of many Protestants (it was true of me for a long time) but I don’t think we can possibly judge it to be true of all (though, since we can’t read minds, it could be true of all, which is why we’re still supposed to try to evangelize all people).

Though I could be wrong, I believe many Protestants would become Catholic in a breath’s span if they realized it was the True Church. Whoever seeks shall find; so I’ve confidence that, if Protestants sincerely seek, they will find the Church–if not in this lifetime, in the next. Even Jesus said to the Pharisees “If (emphasis mine) you were blind you would have no sin,” and I believe that many Protestants, though sincere, may be genuinely blind, not stubborn…I pray that’s the case.

God bless!

 

[mrs_abbott]

So you believe that Catholic Dogma can be against God now?

If preached wrongly, yes.

 

[MrS]

I have to be honest I have run the gambit of emotions while reading this thread. I am new to this whole Catholic church thing and it truly has been a detective story a horror story and finally a love story.

…
Could it be that the Magesterium understands that the schism of the Orthodox and the Protestant Reformation wasn’t solely the fault of one party? One reason I’ve come to believe that the Catholic Church is the Church Christ instituted is because her leaders seem to be willing to actually claim some responsibility and I see Her, alone, actively trying to gather the fold together as one body not simply in a spiritual sense but a truly physical complete sense.
The dream that everybody has let die is alive in the Catholic Church…the idea that we can be one in the body.
All I can say is that I am grateful that the Magesterium sees the work of the Holy Spirit and does not reject it.

Grace and Peace be with you.

and welcome home…

.

 

[Caesar]

This thread has a lot of "I’s in it.

I dont think that…

I cant believe that…

but I want…

Wake up call- there is no I in the Church. Personal opinion doesnt factor into the doctrines of Holy Mother Church. We have to face that fact that Catholicism is the only true Church- relativism is heresy. Just because some people may want protestants, heretics, blasphemers, Mohammedans, hindus, buddhists, Jews, pagans, satanists, animals, and whoever else, to be saved doesnt mean it’s going to happen.

 

[mikew262]

This thread has a lot of "I’s in it.

I dont think that…

I cant believe that…

but I want…

Wake up call- there is no I in the Church. Personal opinion doesnt factor into the doctrines of Holy Mother Church. We have to face that fact that Catholicism is the only true Church- relativism is heresy. Just because some people may want protestants, heretics, blasphemers, Mohammedans, hindus, buddhists, Jews, pagans, satanists, animals, and whoever else, to be saved doesnt mean it’s going to happen.

You don’t know who is going to be saved, only God knows that.

 

[asheeha]

sigh
I certainly did use a lot of “I”. But I did ask your pardon because this journey is very personal. I am not claiming to be remotely objective.
I don’t believe I used the phrase
“I can’t believe that” or “I don’t want”
I checked but I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong as you should. Understand, I am not looking for a fight…I have plenty of those ahead with the people I love.

I also am not remotely a relativist! Otherwise, I would ignore the call of the Spirit and ignore the truth about who and what the Catholic Church is…and not have to deal with the “fights” that I will encounter.

The article that was referenced a few posts before was very good in explaining this.

It explained well the notion that the The Catholic Church is:

“the single and exclusive channel by which the truth and grace of Christ enter our world of space and time” (Karl Adam, The Spirit of Catholicism, 179). Those who do not know the Church, even those who fight against it, can receive these gifts if they honestly seek God and his truth. But, Adam says, “though it be not the Catholic Church itself that hands them the bread of truth and grace, yet it is Catholic bread that they eat.” And when they eat of it, “without knowing it or willing it” they are “incorporated in the supernatural substance of the Church.”
(this is a quote from that article…if you have a better way or more correct way of including quotes please direct me)

And if I still need a wake up call…pray for me, and I am sure I do in some area or another.

Grace and peace be with you
Your sister in Christ,
alysha

 

[Gamera]

“Outside” the Church seems to be the phrase causing confusion. Baptism places a person partially inside the Catholic Church, even if that baptism occurs within a Protestant church, (CCC 838).

 

[asheeha]

Gamera said: “Outside” the Church seems to be the phrase causing confusion. Baptism places a person partially inside the Catholic Church, even if that baptism occurs within a Protestant church, (CCC 838).

THANK YOU! I was wondering how baptism played in since my non-Catholic baptism is still valid but my faith is not. It didn’t make sense. And just so there is no confusion, I do believe the “fullness” of the faith is found in the Catholic Church.

 

[Gamera]

Just in case anyone doubts what the Catholic Church teaches about the status of non-Catholic Christians, and doesn’t want to rely on the Catechism, here’s the applicable paragraph from Lumen Gentium (a major document from Vatican II). Yes, of course it would be better if they were Catholic, but as baptized Christians they already are partly joined with us in Christ right now.

… 15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God. They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.