To a Roman Catholic are Protestants good Christians?

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Mickey said:
I believe it was a mutual excommunication. šŸ˜‰

Sorry TNT, I couldnā€™t help myself. :o
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Mickey,
Your profile says that you are a Byzantine Catholic. I thought that was one of the Churches that are in communion with Rome? Am I wrong? If so, do you mind explaining? (PM if you prefer).
 
mikew262 said:
Huh? I quoted the Churchā€™s Catechism. :confused:
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The Catechism is a teaching tool for the Faith, not the Faith itself. In this respect it (or it may be the translation that is causing problems againā€¦) is against a Dogma of the Church.

The differance- the Dogma is infallible, the Catechism is not.
 
Alex_G said:
Your statement appears to condemn even those Catholics of the Oriental Rites, who are, , and have always being, in full communion with Rome. I mention this only to point out that being overzealous, may lead to error just as easy as being liberal or modernist.
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Ok, my mistake. I did not mean to exclude the Oriental Rites (although ā€œRomanā€ could also include the churches in communion with Rome).
The Creed (I quote the St Josephā€™s Daily Missal of 1957 since it was on my desk as I write this) reads ā€œAnd I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.ā€ I understand the way you use ā€˜Romanā€™ to emphasize your faithfulness to the One True Church, however, the insistence that the Catechism of 1985 is not the Infallible teaching of the Church is to reject the word and work of two popes of the Church of Rome, for it was under the direction of cardinal Ratzinger (our current pope) that pope John Paul II placed the task of compiling the new Catechism, and the document I quoted before indicates the intention and scope of the Catechism.
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The Apostolic Constitution Fidei Depositum repeatedly refers to the Catechism as a ā€œreferance textā€. No where in Fidei Depositum is it ever declared that the 1984 Catechism is an infallible document. The Solemn Magisterium is not exercised.

The Catechism is only infallible in areas where it falls into the Universal Magisterium- that is, when it agrees with established doctrine. In this case, the Catechism disagrees with a Dogma, therefore where is does it is not infallible.

Just because it is promulgated by a Pope does not make it infallible. It takes more then that.
 
MrS said:
Hey Markā€¦ if you are in Bob Jones countryā€¦ do you also run into a LOT of anti-Catholics (who are probably not anti-Christian :rolleyes: )ā€¦
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I did when I was a kid. God were they brutal! My kids still run into anti-Catholics.

But anti-Catholic adults are still around. Somewhere between childhood and adulthood they learn politeness, but their kids are learning it from somewhere.

Iā€™m too busy trying to keep my head above water to develope close frienships these days it seems.
 
Caesar said:
The Catechism is a teaching tool for the Faith, not the Faith itself. In this respect it (or it may be the translation that is causing problems againā€¦) is against a Dogma of the Church.

The differance- the Dogma is infallible, the Catechism is not.
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Now why would the Church put out bad Catechism? You think they are that careless? Cā€™mon Caesar! :rolleyes:

It just kills you to maybe have to admit that the Church has stipulated a person can possibly obtain salvation, yet not belong to the Catholic Church.
 
mikew262 said:
Now why would the Church put out bad Catechism? You think they are that careless? Cā€™mon Caesar! :rolleyes:

It just kills you to maybe have to admit that the Church has stipulated a person can possibly obtain salvation, yet not belong to the Catholic Church.
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Ok, please show me where exactly the Dogma was ever reversed? Has the Church declared it invalid? Null and void?

You are just believing what suits you. You are taking a Catechism, which is not infallible in this regard, and throwing it in the face of an infallible Dogma.
 
What sort of infallable Church puts out an erroneous teaching tool? Are not faithful Catholics entitled to rely on what their Church tells them about faith and morals? I have no idea whether the CCC accurately espouses Catholic dogma, but if my Church told me that I had to submit my will to its teachings on faith and morals at all time, and that the Church would never lead me astray regarding its teachings of faith and morals, Iā€™d be a bit put out if it turned out that the CCC was wrong. I think there is more to this than meets the eyeā€¦
 
rr1213 said:
What sort of infallable Church puts out an erroneous teaching tool? Are not faithful Catholics entitled to rely on what their Church tells them about faith and morals? I have no idea whether the CCC accurately espouses Catholic dogma, but if my Church told me that I had to submit my will to its teachings on faith and morals at all time, and that the Church would never lead me astray regarding its teachings of faith and morals, Iā€™d be a bit put out if it turned out that the CCC was wrong. I think there is more to this than meets the eyeā€¦
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There is more to the Doctrine of Infallibility then that.

Think of it like this:

Always been taught and believed: **infallible **

Solemnly defined by Pope or Council: **infallible **

Other teachings: fallible, but owed religious assent unless they prove harmful, lead to sin, etc.
 
Caesar said:
Ok, please show me where exactly the Dogma was ever reversed? Has the Church declared it invalid? Null and void?

You are just believing what suits you. You are taking a Catechism, which is not infallible in this regard, and throwing it in the face of an infallible Dogma.
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So salvation is only attainable if youā€™re a card-carrying Catholic?
 
rr1213 said:
What sort of infallable Church puts out an erroneous teaching tool? Are not faithful Catholics entitled to rely on what their Church tells them about faith and morals? I have no idea whether the CCC accurately espouses Catholic dogma, but if my Church told me that I had to submit my will to its teachings on faith and morals at all time, and that the Church would never lead me astray regarding its teachings of faith and morals, Iā€™d be a bit put out if it turned out that the CCC was wrong. I think there is more to this than meets the eyeā€¦http://www.gifs.net/Animation11/Religious/Monks_and_Nuns/Hooded_monk_2.gif
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Sumptinā€™s http://www.gifs.net/Animation11/Animals/Fish/Catfish.giffishie, I say.
 
Perhaps I have to explain infallibility. There are three levels of the Magisterium of the Church, two of which are Infallible.

Etraordinary Magisterium (Infallible): when the Roman Pontiff makes a solemn ex cathedra declaration to define a Dogma regarding a matter of faith and morals, OR when an Ecumenical Dogmatic Council formally defines a matter of faith and morals as a Dogma with the consent of the Pope.

Universal Magisterium (Infallible): when a Pope, Bishop, priest, or lay teacher teaches in accordance with the Sacred Tradition of the Church as it has always been taught.

Ordinary Magisterium (Fallible): any other teaching by a cleric or lay teacher which is not an established tradition or doctrine of the Church but doesnt outright defy established tradition either.

Most of the 1984 Catechism falls under the Universal Magisterium. However, this specific point regarding Salvation Outside the Church does not. As I have shown above, this is not in accordance with established tradition and it is certainly not a an Infallible declaration by a Pope or a Dogmatic Council.
 
Perhaps I shoudl rephrase my question:

Can one be inside the Church only if theyā€™re a card-carrying Catholic?

As I understand Lumen Gentium, Those who do not profess to be Catholic, if someoneā€™s view (could be one or some of many views) falls under that of Catholicism, then they are not completely outside of the Church, but are in partial union.

Whatever Truth someone has, they got it from the Catholic Church, as the Catholic Church contains all revealed Truth.

So whatever truth a person may possess puts them in union with the Church just that much, not fully. But at the same time we cannot say they are completely outside of the Church so as to know they will not be saved. We know someone completely outside of the Church (the Truth) will not be saved. But we cannot say that of the people in only partial union (as having some partial Truth). Some may be saved, some may not. We donā€™t know.

So is my understanding incorrect?
 
Caesar said:
Most of the 1984 Catechism falls under the Universal Magisterium. However, this specific point regarding Salvation Outside the Church does not. As I have shown above, this is not in accordance with established tradition and it is certainly not a an Infallible declaration by a Pope or a Dogmatic Council.
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How do you know that this specific point about Salvation is not?

The thing I have never been able to understand about this type of thinking, it why Godā€™s name is it so important for you to make sure there is no Salvation outside the Church? What kind of heart looks for ways to exclude people from Heaven? This seriously boggles my mind.

Does it somehow make the Church weaker if you were to believe others might have a bit of salvation?

Now hereā€™s what I have from the CCC, to me it seems pretty clear.

18 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christā€™s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276
 
anamchara said:
How do you know that this specific point about Salvation is not?

The thing I have never been able to understand about this type of thinking, it why Godā€™s name is it so important for you to make sure there is no Salvation outside the Church? What kind of heart looks for ways to exclude people from Heaven? This seriously boggles my mind.

Does it somehow make the Church weaker if you were to believe others might have a bit of salvation?
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I am merely stating what the Church has always said, and what the Dogma says. It is not my opinion.

The Dogma that there is No Salvation outside the Church was defined in the early 1200s, re-defined and affirmed by many Popes and Ecumenical Councils until the 1960s, but was held since the Early Church in the time of the Apostles.

If anything, most people here are being unfaithful to the Magisterium of the Church. They ignore the fact that this is a Dogma (that is, from the Etraordinary Infallible Magisterium- a solemn declaration made by a Dogmatic Council with the consent of a valid Pope); they ignore the fact that it was held by the entire Church from the earliest days to the the mid-1900s (that is, from the Universal Infallible Magisterium). Instead, they throw around a passage (a passge that falls under the Ordinary Fallible Magisterium) from the CCC.

Almost 2000 years of tradition says there is no salvation outside the Church; an infallible Dogma, that has been affirmed by many Popes and Dogmatic councils since it was first defined, says there is no salvation outside the Church.
 
Caesar said:
I am merely stating what the Church has always said, and what the Dogma says. It is not my opinion.

The Dogma that there is No Salvation outside the Church was defined in the early 1200s, re-defined and affirmed by many Popes and Ecumenical Councils until the 1960s, but was held since the Early Church in the time of the Apostles.

If anything, most people here are being unfaithful to the Magisterium of the Church. They ignore the fact that this is a Dogma (that is, from the Etraordinary Infallible Magisterium- a solemn declaration made by a Dogmatic Council with the consent of a valid Pope); they ignore the fact that it was held by the entire Church from the earliest days to the the mid-1900s (that is, from the Universal Infallible Magisterium). Instead, they throw around a passage (a passge that falls under the Ordinary Fallible Magisterium) from the CCC.

Almost 2000 years of tradition says there is no salvation outside the Church; an infallible Dogma, that has been affirmed by many Popes and Dogmatic councils since it was first defined, says there is no salvation outside the Church.
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Are Catholics the only ones inside the Church and all others are outside?
 
Unitas said:
Are Catholics the only ones inside the Church and all others are outside?
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There is One Church, Holy Catholic and Apostolic, whose visible head is the Roman Pontiff. He who accepts the doctines and traditions of the Church and is Baptized in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and submitts to the authority of the Pontiff, is Catholic.
 
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