To a Roman Catholic are Protestants good Christians?

[StevenFrancis]

No, if the Dogma says “Outside the Church there is no salvation” it cannot be changed at a later date to say “Outside the Church there is some salvation”. The Dogma cannot change and it cannot be reversed.

Caesar:

Please give me a reference to try to understand where you are coming from, and why? You have quotation marks around “Outside the Church there is no salvation”. You keep going back to that post after post after post. What is that from so that I may read the entire document and discern it in the context of the material preceding it and following it. What is the source material to your quotation? What is it about this quote, and the context that it is in that leads you to doubt God’s infinite mercy regarding sinners, non-catholics etc?
What specifically says that the Church gets to decide what God will do in the fullness of salvation and judgement. Isn’t this in the province of God alone? I want to read the full text of the specific dogma you keep quoting. Everything comes from some kind of a source document. Even dogmas. Thanks,

 

[Gamera]

Yes.

It has always been a teaching of the Catholic Church, from the time of the Apostles who recieved that teaching from Our Lord, that there is One Church, Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic and outside of her there is to be found no salvation.

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus

Fourth Lateran Council (1215): “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.”

**Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam Sanctam (1302): **“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

**Pope Eugene IV, Bull Cantate Domino (1441): **“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”

Pope Pelagius II (578-590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church”.

Saint Gregory the Great (590-604), Moralia: “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.”

**Pope Innocent III (1198-1216): **“With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved” .

Pope Leo XII (1823-1829), Encyclical Ubi Primum: “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. … For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.’”

Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846), Encyclical Summo Jugiter: “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.”

Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), Encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore, 8: “Well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff”; also: Talk Singulari quadam: “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood”

Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903), Encyclical Annum Ingressi Sumus: “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.”

idem, Encyclical Sapientiae Christianae:“He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.”

Pope Pius X (1903-1914), Encyclical Jucunda Sane: “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.”

…

Caesar, do you equate papal bulls and encyclicals with “Dogma”? A statement made in a papal bull or an encyclical does not thereby become dogma. Nor does a multiplicity of fallible statements saying the same thing add up to one infallible statement. Where is the “infallible dogma” saying you must be a professing Catholic to be saved? Please quote the specific document promulgating such a dogma.

There isn’t any. “Outside the Church there is no salvation” is not in dispute — but no “infallible dogma” exists saying that a person who is not a professing Catholic is thereby “outside the Church.”

Yes, “Outside the Church there is no salvation” — and no infallible statement ever has said that baptized Protestants are “outside the Church” in this sense.

 

[Mannyfit75]

So then is being a Catholic or a Protestant just a matter of personal preference with no essential religious differences between them? Do different Christian sects try to “convert” followers from one Christian sect to another?

Protestant denominations think the Catholics are mislead that is why they feel the need to save them, when in fact they don’t because Catholics believe that Jesus is the Savior and the Messiah, and believes that Jesus left a Church to care for his followers.

I see that you a Jewish, and yes it does feel strange why convert another Christian. Protestants believe they have the fullness of Truth. Catholics believe Protestants got part of the truth, and claims that the Church is the Fullness of Truth.

Protestants believe the Bible is the Sole Rule of faith concerning all matters.

Catholics believe Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium are the authority which God has given to his apostles, who handed it down to their successors, the bishops.

 

[lak611]

Caesar:

Please give me a reference to try to understand where you are coming from, and why? You have quotation marks around “Outside the Church there is no salvation”. You keep going back to that post after post after post. What is that from so that I may read the entire document and discern it in the context of the material preceding it and following it. What is the source material to your quotation? What is it about this quote, and the context that it is in that leads you to doubt God’s infinite mercy regarding sinners, non-catholics etc?
What specifically says that the Church gets to decide what God will do in the fullness of salvation and judgement. Isn’t this in the province of God alone? I want to read the full text of the specific dogma you keep quoting. Everything comes from some kind of a source document. Even dogmas. Thanks,

Here is a link that lists all the Catholic dogmas. jloughnan.tripod.com/dogma.htm

 

[Blue_Serenity]

What specifically says that the Church gets to decide what God will do in the fullness of salvation and judgement. Isn’t this in the province of God alone? I want to read the full text of the specific dogma you keep quoting. Everything comes from some kind of a source document. Even dogmas. Thanks,

Was there ever an answer given for this question?
I think it’s %@*^ that the CC thinks they have the monopoly on salvation like that. Judging who will or will not be saved is God’s job, not man’s.

 

[Caesar]

Caesar, do you equate papal bulls and encyclicals with “Dogma”? A statement made in a papal bull or an encyclical does not thereby become dogma. Nor does a multiplicity of fallible statements saying the same thing add up to one infallible statement. Where is the “infallible dogma” saying you must be a professing Catholic to be saved? Please quote the specific document promulgating such a dogma.

There isn’t any. “Outside the Church there is no salvation” is not in dispute — but no “infallible dogma” exists saying that a person who is not a professing Catholic is thereby “outside the Church.”

Yes, “Outside the Church there is no salvation” — and no infallible statement ever has said that baptized Protestants are “outside the Church” in this sense.

If Papal Bulls and Encyclicals reaffirm established doctrine, then they fall under the Universal Magisterium which is infallible.

Was there ever an answer given for this question?
I think it’s %@*^ that the CC thinks they have the monopoly on salvation like that. Judging who will or will not be saved is God’s job, not man’s.

And the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church, built upon the Rock that is St. Peter, to whom was given the power to bind and to loose. This power has passed on to his successors. No other church can claim foundation by Christ or a have line of succession from the Prince of the Apostles.

The Church exists for the salvation of souls- that is why Our Lord established it. And if salvation is to be found outside of the Church (however you take that to mean) then the Church has no purpose.

 

[Church_Militant]

Was there ever an answer given for this question?
I think it’s %@*^ that the CC thinks they have the monopoly on salvation like that. Judging who will or will not be saved is God’s job, not man’s.

And if you’ll look at 836 you’ll soon see that Caesar is not in line with what the church teaches. He seems to think that he knows better than the magisterium. :nope:

 

[lak611]

And if you’ll look at 836 you’ll soon see that Caesar is not in line with what the church teaches. He seems to think that he knows better than the magisterium. :nope:

That is true. The Dogma does exist, but it needs to be interpreted properly, according to the magisterium, just like the Bible does.

 

[Walking_Home]

Say what you will but it’s not Christ’s way of thinking. The Bible shows many instances where he exercises mercy to the sinner. There was no religion then. To barr someone from Heaven simply because they’re not Catholic is against God.

---

It was Christ Himself —who left us the Faith and His Church whose mission is to transmit the Faith.

 

[rr1213]

My wife believes that one of the greatest things going for the Catholic Church is that someone is in charge. You have a Pope, you have a magisterium, they know what they are doing, private interpretations must conform to the Magisterium. Silly, silly. This thread is a great example of the opposite. Seeing the conflict between Catholics on what the Magisterium teaches on such a fundamental subject (the salvation of men) may dissuade her of this belief.

 

[mozart-250]

My wife believes that one of the greatest things going for the Catholic Church is that someone is in charge. You have a Pope, you have a magisterium, they know what they are doing, private interpretations must conform to the Magisterium. Silly, silly. This thread is a great example of the opposite. Seeing the conflict between Catholics on what the Magisterium teaches on such a fundamental subject (the salvation of men) may dissuade her of this belief.

Yup.

The difference between Catholicism and Protestants is that Protestants disagree on what the Bible teaches and Catholics disagree on what the Magisterium teaches.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Can non Roman Catholics also be true and good Christians?

Protestants are all given the ability to be good christians.

They are also given the ability by God to accept the Church of Christ, the Catholic Church as their own. We have free will in both instances

In both cases the rest is up to them to not only be claim to be christian but also to live the faith as well.

 

[KindredSoul]

My wife believes that one of the greatest things going for the Catholic Church is that someone is in charge. You have a Pope, you have a magisterium, they know what they are doing, private interpretations must conform to the Magisterium. Silly, silly. This thread is a great example of the opposite. Seeing the conflict between Catholics on what the Magisterium teaches on such a fundamental subject (the salvation of men) may dissuade her of this belief.

Fundamental? I both agree and disagree. It’s fundamental because it’s such a huge truth, but it’s not in the sense that the argument here doesn’t affect a Catholic’s salvation. Caesar and others have commented that believing the dogma of “No salvation outside the Church” is essential to being Catholic, but what they miss is that few here, if any, dispute that. We just disagree on what the meaning of “Outside the Church” is; that makes one side of this debate wrong, yes, but it doesn’t endanger either side’s salvation since both sides agree on the necessity of believing the Dogma.

Faithful Protestants, all agreeing that the Bible in its entirety is their source, often disagree on things that they deem essential for their salvation, not merely concerning the salvation of outside parties: Is gay behavior okay or might it send people to hell? Is abortion okay or is it a hellbound sin when left unrepented? Is divorce okay or does it restrict one to eternal punishment? Once saved, always saved, or can salvation be lost? The list goes on.

There’s a big difference in what is going on here and what goes on in the Protestant world.

 

[rr1213]

There’s a big difference in what is going on here and what goes on in the Protestant world.

Sure, except most Protestants don’t claim an infallable teaching magisterium.

 

[KindredSoul]

Sure, except most Protestants don’t claim an infallable teaching magisterium.

What’s your point? Catholics claim an infallible teaching magisterium, which is there for the sake of keeping honest Catholics faithful, so that an honest, soul-searching Catholic will not stray in any way that is remotely harmful to his salvation. This argument is in no way a failure of that purpose, which is what my entire previous post was all about.

True, Protestants don’t claim an infallible teaching magisterium, and when major Protestant disagreements come up on things that may make the difference in one’s very own salvation (not merely that of others), it shows.

 

[StevenFrancis]

Fundamental? I both agree and disagree. It’s fundamental because it’s such a huge truth, but it’s not in the sense that the argument here doesn’t affect a Catholic’s salvation. Caesar and others have commented that believing the dogma of “No salvation outside the Church” is essential to being Catholic, but what they miss is that few here, if any, dispute that. We just disagree on what the meaning of “Outside the Church” is; that makes one side of this debate wrong, yes, but it doesn’t endanger either side’s salvation since both sides agree on the necessity of believing the Dogma.

Faithful Protestants, all agreeing that the Bible in its entirety is their source, often disagree on things that they deem essential for their salvation, not merely concerning the salvation of outside parties: Is gay behavior okay or might it send people to hell? Is abortion okay or is it a hellbound sin when left unrepented? Is divorce okay or does it restrict one to eternal punishment? Once saved, always saved, or can salvation be lost? The list goes on.

There’s a big difference in what is going on here and what goes on in the Protestant world.

Very well said Kindred. Thank you.

 

[StevenFrancis]

The Church exists for the salvation of souls- that is why Our Lord established it. And if salvation is to be found outside of the Church (however you take that to mean) then the Church has no purpose.

Caesar:

You realize, don’t you, that you just said the same thing that I, and the other Catholics are saying in this thread. We all agree there is no salvation outside the Church. It’s that statement you have in quotes here that is the key to this argument…"(however you take that to mean)". Just by adding those words, we are in agreement. We were never saying that the “Outside the Church” part was wrong. Only that most of us give God his due in defining what Outside the Church means. God may very well allow salvation for a baptized Protestant who keeps his commandments, and loves the Lord with their heart and soul, so long as they can claim some degree of ignorance to all the other teachings of Jesus and his Church. After all, there is a period of time, (in my case 47 years), where a person has yet not heard and understood the truth. They’re still good people, and still lambs of God. They are still being formed, however. The problem comes with formed Christians who have heard the truth and then DECIDE not to abide in it. Then God is LIKELY to take a dim view. Only he knows that for sure. It is not for man to decide. We can only advise on the likelihood of it based on knowledge imparted to us by the High Priest. I would think that a Protestant would be much more worried about Jesus’ admonition in the actual Holy Bible that unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus, you have NO LIFE within you. If that is a defining marker, (and it is certainly framed that way), then Protestants, who don’t believe in the real presence, might have a bigger problem here than with the semantics over who is in or out of the Church. I believe that would narrow things down to Catholocism and Orthodoxy at any rate. This doesn’t require much speculation or second guessing of God on our part at all. That information is freely available to anyone who has exposed themselves to God’s word. I know it was the clincher for my conversion. I never felt “outside the church” until the reality of Eucharist truy sunk in.

 

[lumendelumine]

Sure, except most Protestants don’t claim an infallable teaching magisterium.

The whole point of the Magisterium is that you actually have competent authorities you may ask. In our case, apart from Church documents like the CCC, Canon law, papal encyclicals etc., it’s the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. If an essential part of teaching is unclear to you, and you cannot receive clarification from somewhere else (the local bishop’s office etc.) you may ask them. The Magisterium is a living Magisterium. That’s what makes it unique. (Just think of Islam in comparison: what’s the “official position of Islam” on x or y? There is no such thing. There are only opinions of scholars, imams etc.)

So, despite the fact that this thread has already become so long, one thing has emerged:

The Catholic Church is the one true Church Christ founded. Through her, all souls are saved. Yet this also means that people who don’t know that she is the one true Church can nevertheless attain salvation if they seek God with a sincere heart. This both means that
a) a non-Catholic isn’t necessarily going to Hell (nor is a baptized Catholic necessarily going to Heaven), but
b) we have to proclaim the full truth to non-Catholics in order to ensure that they really are saved.

Cf. the following: If you wade through swamps and fight your way through the jungle, you may still get to the place you want to get to - though you may also get lost and die on the way. It’s thus much easier and more secure to take the road (=the Catholic Church) instead…

 

[MrS]

Sure, except most Protestants don’t claim an infallable teaching magisterium.

perhaps because they don’t have one !!!

.

 

[mrs_abbott]

---

It was Christ Himself —who left us the Faith and His Church whose mission is to transmit the Faith.

That teaching that all who are not Catholic go to hell is NOT from the Church Christ established! :nope:
I’ll keep saying this til my fingers go numb from typing!