To a Roman Catholic are Protestants good Christians?

[rr1213]

Evolved only to include new and emerging classes of heretics.

When was “no salvation outside of the Church” dogmatized? The 800s? I would think that faithful Catholics of that time period would have a different understanding of the concept than what is being taught by the Church today. Do you disagree?

 

[Caesar]

When was “no salvation outside of the Church” dogmatized? The 800s? I would think that faithful Catholics of that time period would have a different understanding of the concept than what is being taught by the Church today. Do you disagree?

Yes.

It has always been a teaching of the Catholic Church, from the time of the Apostles who recieved that teaching from Our Lord, that there is One Church, Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic and outside of her there is to be found no salvation.

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus

Fourth Lateran Council (1215): “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.”

**Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam Sanctam (1302): **“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

**Pope Eugene IV, Bull Cantate Domino (1441): **“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”

Pope Pelagius II (578-590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church”.

Saint Gregory the Great (590-604), Moralia: “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.”

**Pope Innocent III (1198-1216): **“With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved” .

Pope Leo XII (1823-1829), Encyclical Ubi Primum: “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. … For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.’”

Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846), Encyclical Summo Jugiter: “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.”

Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), Encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore, 8: “Well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff”; also: Talk Singulari quadam: “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood”

Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903), Encyclical Annum Ingressi Sumus: “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.”

idem, Encyclical Sapientiae Christianae:“He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.”

Pope Pius X (1903-1914), Encyclical Jucunda Sane: “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.”

…

 

[Caesar]

Pope Benedict XV (1914-1922), Encyclical Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum: “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

Pope Pius XI (1922-1939), Encyclical Mortalium Animos: “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. … Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.”

**Pope Pius XII (1939-1958), Allocution to the Gregorian University (17 October 1953): **“By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.”

Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 14: “They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it.”

 

[mrs_abbott]

Yes.

It has always been a teaching of the Catholic Church, from the time of the Apostles who recieved that teaching from Our Lord, that there is One Church, Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic and outside of her there is to be found no salvation.

It’s the one of the main parts of Catholicism that I think was taught in error.
God is merciful and will judge all according to what they know and how they use that knowledge to love and serve Him.

 

[Caesar]

It’s the one of the main parts of Catholicism that I think was taught in error.
God is merciful and will judge all according to what they know and how they use that knowledge to love and serve Him.

The Church cannot promulgate error as Dogma. It is impossible. The nature of the Church makes it impossible. If you believe that the Church is the Church of Christ then you must believe that the Church cannot err in it’s Dogmatic teachings.

It is an anathema (automatic ecommunication) to say that the the Church is in error.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

The Gospels were written and verified and protected by the Catholic Church for nearly 2,000 years. To the extent that any Protestant knowingly rejects any teaching in the Gospels (for example, the teaching that we can be saved by faith, but only if faith is accompanied by works) that Protestant is not only not a Catholic, but not even a Christian. We are not Christians just because we pick and choose the doctrines we like that Christ taught. We are Christians because we accept everything he taught. To deny **anything **he taught is to deny that he was divine and that he was the infallible Christ.

The same applies to “cafeteria” Catholics. They are not Christians either. Let’s be honest with ourselves and demand that other stop deluding themselves. We are either with Christ, or we are against him. We must be hot or cold. Christ spewed from his mouth the lukewarm.

A Catholic who has been properly taught and who receives the Body and Blood of Christ and regards them as mere bread and wine is an abomination at the altar. And any priest who **knowingly **takes this “Catholic’s” money is also an abomination at the altar.

Caesar’s recent post citing three popes and Vatican II says it all.

 

[rr1213]

Pope Benedict XV (1914-1922), Encyclical Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum: “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

Pope Pius XI (1922-1939), Encyclical Mortalium Animos: “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. … Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.”

**Pope Pius XII (1939-1958), Allocution to the Gregorian University (17 October 1953): **“By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.”

Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 14: “They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it.”

*“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337*

As can be seen above, and in the original source documents for the CCC, the teaching has changed through the years. At one point–you are in the Church or you are damned. At another point–some few who are not in the Church proper can be saved…even those who are not baptized Christians. Do you think Pope Boniface believed that?

 

[Caesar]

Caesar’s recent post citing three popes and Vatican II says it all.

There are more listed in the post above that one.

 

[mrs_abbott]

The Church cannot promulgate error as Dogma. It is impossible. The nature of the Church makes it impossible. If you believe that the Church is the Church of Christ then you must believe that the Church cannot err in it’s Dogmatic teachings.

It is an anathema (automatic ecommunication) to say that the the Church is in error.

Say what you will but it’s not Christ’s way of thinking. The Bible shows many instances where he exercises mercy to the sinner. There was no religion then. To barr someone from Heaven simply because they’re not Catholic is against God.

 

[mikew262]

Say what you will but it’s not Christ’s way of thinking. The Bible shows many instances where he exercises mercy to the sinner. There was no religion then. To barr someone from Heaven simply because they’re not Catholic is against God.

Here,here!!

 

[MrS]

Say what you will but it’s not Christ’s way of thinking. The Bible shows many instances where he exercises mercy to the sinner. There was no religion then. To barr someone from Heaven simply because they’re not Catholic is against God.

once again, you have missed the teaching… the Church has never taught that

First, please understand that

[1] the Church IS Jesus Christ,

[2] the Church IS the visible, living teaching entity which Jesus founded and built on Peter the Rock and

[3] the Church IS a body of believers (believe means obey in the early days of the Church… it should mean nothing less today)

also, Jesus did say, and we profess that NO ONE can get to the Father without going to the Son.

Jesus is the Church, His perfect Spouse

God’s mercy will be very evident to those who have no concept of the visible Church, but each man has that inner yearning and desire for the higher power (God).

BUT… to be taught that the source of the graces from God come by way of the Church He founded… and then to willfully remain outside that Church… is damnation.

A good “Christian”, Catholic or not, will want more faith, more grace and total membership and belief (obedience) in the Church the Lord founded.

To comprise is a sin
To walk away in pride is a sin
To tell our separated brethren that “it’s okay” is a sin.

.

 

[mikew262]

The Gospels were written and verified and protected by the Catholic Church for nearly 2,000 years. To the extent that any Protestant knowingly rejects any teaching in the Gospels (for example, the teaching that we can be saved by faith, but only if faith is accompanied by works) that Protestant is not only not a Catholic, but not even a Christian. We are not Christians just because we pick and choose the doctrines we like that Christ taught. We are Christians because we accept everything he taught. To deny **anything **he taught is to deny that he was divine and that he was the infallible Christ.

The same applies to “cafeteria” Catholics. They are not Christians either. Let’s be honest with ourselves and demand that other stop deluding themselves. We are either with Christ, or we are against him. We must be hot or cold. Christ spewed from his mouth the lukewarm.

A Catholic who has been properly taught and who receives the Body and Blood of Christ and regards them as mere bread and wine is an abomination at the altar. And any priest who **knowingly **takes this “Catholic’s” money is also an abomination at the altar.

Caesar’s recent post citing three popes and Vatican II says it all.

Protestants and Catholics who struggle with some of the Church’s teachings not Christians? Rubbish!!! :tsktsk:

You need to do a little research on what Scripture says about judging others.

 

[mrs_abbott]

once again, you have missed the teaching… the Church has never taught that

First, please understand that

[1] the Church IS Jesus Christ,

[2] the Church IS the visible, living teaching entity which Jesus founded and built on Peter the Rock and

[3] the Church IS a body of believers (believe means obey in the early days of the Church… it should mean nothing less today)

Then why do folks say it like if you’re baptized Catholic, you’re going to hell???

 

[E.E.N.S]

MrS, you always seem to post in the same thread I am about to post in!

To comprise is a sin
To walk away in pride is a sin
To tell our separated brethren that “it’s okay” is a sin.
.

I think you meant compromise, right?

 

[mrs_abbott]

Protestants and Catholics who struggle with some of the Church’s teachings not Christians? Rubbish!!! :tsktsk:

You need to do a little research on what Scripture says about judging others.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Protestants and Catholics who struggle with some of the Church’s teachings not Christians? Rubbish!!! :tsktsk:

You need to do a little research on what Scripture says about judging others.

We are to judge each others behaviors, St. Paul says so anyway.

Then why do folks say it like if you’re baptized Catholic, you’re going to hell???

You mean, if they’re not baptized Catholic?

Well, we would need a lot more space than what I have time for at the moment to get into this at a deeper level, but we must take seriously the fact that Jesus says if we are not baptized we do not have life within us.

 

[mrs_abbott]

You mean, if they’re not baptized Catholic?

Well, we would need a lot more space than what I have time for at the moment to get into this at a deeper level, but we must take seriously the fact that Jesus says if we are not baptized we do not have life within us.

Oops! Yes, I meant “not”. My brain functions faster than I can type.

Do you recommend a new thread for the answer to that question?

 

[mikew262]

We are to judge each others behaviors, St. Paul says so anyway.

Remove the plank from your own eye…, Let he who is w/o sin, cast… Jesus says so. My 2 Jesus quotes trumps your St. Paul one.

Yes, yes, I know there is more to it than that.

 

[scylla]

Say what you will but it’s not Christ’s way of thinking. The Bible shows many instances where he exercises mercy to the sinner. There was no religion then. To barr someone from Heaven simply because they’re not Catholic is against God.

Mrs Abbott, I would stress that what is Catholic is true.

So lets say you get to heaven and you see that Jesus really was an only child as Mary was created to bear the Son of God.

Now once you are in heaven you are now Catholic because that is a Catholic belief. You might not call yourself “Catholic” but the faith will be the same.

The sinner would be open to the truth of God and would accept the beliefs as that is God’s truth.
To deny that would allow for us to get to heaven without truth and state that our belief defines what is true so it is ok to believe that Mary was a horrible person and think that in heaven. See you have to be holding the Catholic faith in heaven as that is what it is.

Most people these days do not open their hearts to God’s truth and would rather state their opinion than change. Is this really following God?

There are some Protestants who are open to God’s truth and will be open to submitting to it when God accepts them.
Pride is what keeps many from even seeking God’s will, even with Catholics who have the truth and many of them will go to Hell, as they prefer that to submitting to God.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[rr1213]

Mrs Abbott, I would stress that what is Catholic is true.

So lets say you get to heaven and you see that Jesus really was an only child as Mary was created to bear the Son of God.

Now once you are in heaven you are now Catholic because that is a Catholic belief. You might not call yourself “Catholic” but the faith will be the same.

The sinner would be open to the truth of God and would accept the beliefs as that is God’s truth.
To deny that would allow for us to get to heaven without truth and state that our belief defines what is true so it is ok to believe that Mary was a horrible person and think that in heaven. See you have to be holding the Catholic faith in heaven as that is what it is.

Most people these days do not open their hearts to God’s truth and would rather state their opinion than change. Is this really following God?

There are some Protestants who are open to God’s truth and will be open to submitting to it when God accepts them.
Pride is what keeps many from even seeking God’s will, even with Catholics who have the truth and many of them will go to Hell, as they prefer that to submitting to God.

God Bless
Scylla

Good point. I doubt that many believers, Catholic or otherwise, will contest the truth as stated by Christ in heaven. It is discerning what that truth is here on earth that is the problem. You say you have the keys; we don’t believe that the keys exist in the sense that you assert.