To a Roman Catholic are Protestants good Christians?

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I think we should sort all this out a bit…
The Catholic doctrine of Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) is, like most parts of Catholic doctrine, very wide, deep and even paradoxical.

So, it is similarly true that
  1. outside the Church there is no salvation and
  2. people who have lived and dies outside the visible Church can be and are saved.
As the Church comprises the saints in Heaven and the holy souls in Purgatory, everyone who has been saved belongs to the Church. And everyone who has been saved has been saved due to Christ, this is why he or she belongs to the Church.

But: It has to be known and preached that belonging to the Church is necessary for salvation because if we know that we are saved through the Church which Christ established and we know and understand that this Church is the Catholic Church, then we are putting our souls into grave danger if we reject it or if we leave her.

See for example the following article on the Feeneyite heresy:
catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=963:

"In its letter to Archbishop Cushing on the Boston heresy case (the protocol to which Pope Pius XII had so carefully attended), the Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office noted that “the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach. . . that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church.” The protocol goes on to say, however, that
Code:
*(T)his dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, **it was not to private judgments that Our Saviour gave for explanation** those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church (Suprema haec sacra, in The American Ecclesiastical Review, 1952, vol. 127, pp. 308-15).*
In other words, the magisterial texts used by Fr. Feeney and his followers can only be interpreted in context and in the light of other, equally authoritative Magisterial teachings not only in order to avoid confusion or charges that the Church has changed her teaching, but because it is only in harmony with the Magisterium of today that magisterial texts of yesterday may be rightly understood."

Or see how Bl. Pius IX. states it in QUANTO CONFICIAMUR MOERORE (1863):

“Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.”

So what the Catechism says today is what the Catholic Church has always taught. There is NO change of doctrine here.

And finally, some food for thought: If all those people who do not belong to the visible Catholic Church (together with those Catholics who are damned) will all go to Hell - hasn’t then Satan triumphed???
 
*Protestants and Catholics who struggle with some of the Church’s teachings not Christians? Rubbish!!! :tsktsk:
*
I said nothing about struggling with Church teachings. I was talking about those who reject the teachings of Christ.

So do you reject Church teachings? Do you believe it’s o.k. for Catholics who do not believe in the True Presence to receive the Eucharist? Do you believe it’s o.k. for priests to give Communion to such Catholics?

Try judging yourself for once. It’s a healthy exercise we should all get into.
 
I think we should sort all this out a bit…
The Catholic doctrine of Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) is, like most parts of Catholic doctrine, very wide, deep and even paradoxical.

So, it is similarly true that
  1. **outside the Church there is no salvation **and
  2. people who have lived and dies outside the visible Church can be and are saved.
Why do you Catholics have to complicate things??? :confused:
 
Then why do folks say it like if you’re baptized Catholic, you’re going to hell??? :confused:
actually, I have never heard that…

I have heard “If you are Catholic, you are headed for hell…”

or my used-to-be-favorite-now-I-beat-them-to-the-punch

“Would you rather accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ OR the gospel of the Catholic Church” :rolleyes:

.
 
Remove the plank from your own eye…, Let he who is w/o sin, cast… Jesus says so. My 2 Jesus quotes trumps your St. Paul one. 😃

Yes, yes, I know there is more to it than that.
And Jesus reigns supreme once again. 😉
 
Mrs Abbot

Say what you will but it’s not Christ’s way of thinking. The Bible shows many instances where he exercises mercy to the sinner. There was no religion then. To barr someone from Heaven simply because they’re not Catholic is against God.

Sorry, but unless you are a Proterstant you don’t decide what is Christ’s way of thinking. The Church does. Clearly, Christ forgives sinners. This is what the Church teaches. The Church also teaches that those who **know **the teachings of Christ and reject them are doomed unless they repent before they die. That includes cafeteria Catholics.
 
Good point. I doubt that many believers, Catholic or otherwise, will contest the truth as stated by Christ in heaven. It is discerning what that truth is here on earth that is the problem. You say you have the keys; we don’t believe that the keys exist in the sense that you assert.
So does it matter what we believe?

If the keys don’t exist then no-one has real truth? Did Jesus come here and teach as a hobby before dying for us, no caring if we knew truth for sure?

Or can we know truth?

God bless
Scylla
 
So does it matter what we believe?

If the keys don’t exist then no-one has real truth? Did Jesus come here and teach as a hobby before dying for us, no caring if we knew truth for sure?

Or can we know truth?

God bless
Scylla
Absolutely truth matters and absolutely we can know what is truth. The application of that principle, though, is harder than simply stating it. As a Protestant, I believe that the Scriptures embody the truth. As a Catholic, you believe that the Scriptures, Holy Tradition and the Catholic Church embody the truth and that the Scriptures are interpreted authoritatively by the Church in harmony with Holy Tradition. It’s a pretty serious difference of viewpoint unfortunately.
 
rr1213

Absolutely truth matters and absolutely we can know what is truth.

Fine. Then which of the several thousand protestant sects has the absolute truth, and how does it know it has it?
 
What is so hard to comprehend here?

There is One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, and outside of her there is to be found no salvation. This is a DOGMA of the Church. A dogma is an INFALLIBLE teaching of the Church- the Church cannot, cannot, err in her dogmas, it’s impossible. To say that the Church can be in error in pronouncing a dogma incurrs an Anathema- thats an automatic excommunication, which means your in schism.

What is so hard to understand? If you deny this essential and infallible teaching of the Church then you are no better then the “Catholics” who support gay marriage or abortion or who dont believe in Transubstantiation. To be Catholic, you must except that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church!
 
rr1213

Absolutely truth matters and absolutely we can know what is truth.

Fine. Then which of the several thousand protestant sects has the absolute truth, and how does it know it has it?
Yeah, I knew somebody would say that. You differ from the Orthodox on key issues, we together as the western church differ from the Orthodox on key issues, and you and the Orthodox differ from us on key issues. Wish I had an answer. I suppose that either the Catholic Church is right or that all of the components of the Church (Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant) have part, if not all, of the truth. Of course, that can’t be the case because the Gates of Hell shall not prevail over the Church, right?
 
What is so hard to comprehend here?

There is One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, and outside of her there is to be found no salvation. This is a DOGMA of the Church. A dogma is an INFALLIBLE teaching of the Church- the Church cannot, cannot, err in her dogmas, it’s impossible. To say that the Church can be in error in pronouncing a dogma incurrs an Anathema- thats an automatic excommunication, which means your in schism.

What is so hard to understand? If you deny this essential and infallible teaching of the Church then you are no better then the “Catholics” who support gay marriage or abortion or who dont believe in Transubstantiation. To be Catholic, you must except that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church!
Answer a few simple questions for me. Yes or no, does your Church teach that it is possible that people may die as Orthodox believers and be saved? Does your Church teach that it is possible that people may die as Protestant believers and be saved? Is it possible that people may die as non-Christians and be saved? Now, if I am wrong I stand to be corrected, but I believe that the answer to all of those questions is “yes, but it is very, very difficult and not to be recommended by a long shot.” If that is the case, then your statements above demonstrate an incomplete understanding of your Church’s teaching that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. In other words, there are nuances that you are not acknowledging.
 
*Protestants and Catholics who struggle with some of the Church’s teachings not Christians? Rubbish!!! :tsktsk:
*
I said nothing about struggling with Church teachings. I was talking about those who reject the teachings of Christ.

So do you reject Church teachings? Do you believe it’s o.k. for Catholics who do not believe in the True Presence to receive the Eucharist? Do you believe it’s o.k. for priests to give Communion to such Catholics?

Try judging yourself for once. It’s a healthy exercise we should all get into.
Many Protestant’s reject Catholic teachings because they feel they are wrong. They are still Christians, and have just as much chance getting to Heaven as you do.

I admit I do struggle with some Catholic doctrine including the Real Presence, as many do. Is it full blown rejection? No, I don’t think so. I’m in constant conversation with God over these struggles.

To answer your last statement, I constantly judge myself. My issue with you is you taking it upon yourself to judge who is a worthy Christian and who isn’t. It’s not your call and I recommend unless you want to be held accountable for it someday, you knock it off and worry more about yourself.
 
Remove the plank from your own eye…, Let he who is w/o sin, cast… Jesus says so. My 2 Jesus quotes trumps your St. Paul one. 😃

Yes, yes, I know there is more to it than that.
Now now, we aren’t an “either/or” bunch, now are we? 😛 😉
 
Many Protestant’s reject Catholic teachings because they feel they are wrong. They are still Christians, and have just as much chance getting to Heaven as you do.
Yes, they are still Christians, however, to say that they have the same chance as us would completely deny the power and grace that flow through the sacraments.
 
I think if every one would stick to two basic points this could be a much more charitable and fruitful exchange.

First, stick to answering what is being asked. i.e. how do Catholics view “other branches…”.

To this I will say: We must all agree that Christ founded a Church based on Truth

“…For this was I born, and for this I came into the world; that* I should give testimony to the truth**.” *And most important “Every one that is of the truth, heareth my voice.” John 18.38
And His command to this Church IS: *“Going therefore, teach ye all nations… Teaching them to **observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you…”/**I] Matt. 28. 19-20

The simple answer then is this: if there is but one truth we must strive to find that truth in its fullness and follow and obey it. **Any deviation from the full truth cannot be ‘good’ **since it is only partially correct and therefore incomplete. So, any ‘branches’ of the Church that do not possess the whole truth are NOT THE Church.

Second, when answering as a Catholic, stick to answering what the Church teaches. As nice as some of the personal opinions here stated are (not all post, but many are opinion based), we cannot avoid the truth presuming to be charitable. So to the second part of the question “can non-Catholics be true and good Christians?”

I must first clarify that “No one is good but God alone…” if the Church is Holy is not because the Church is Catholic, but because the Church is the body of Christ. So, to be a Christian you must belong to this body; and to be a “true and good Christian” you MUST FOLLOW the whole truth and try to do it the best you can (“pick your cross daily and follow ME…”).

Now whether you can be a good Christian just because you call yourself Christian, or Catholic, or Protestant, or whatever, that is a different story, and I would not dare pass judgment as to the goodness or holiness of others.

But to tell you that you can be saved without the fullness of TRUTH would be a truly uncharitable thing indeed. So, if you accept and try to follow “ALL things whatsoever” He commanded then you would most likely find yourself a member of the One and True Church; anything short of that does not cut it.*
 
I think if every one would stick to two basic points this could be a much more charitable and fruitful exchange.

First, stick to answering what is being asked. i.e. how do Catholics view “other branches…”.

To this I will say: We must all agree that Christ founded a Church based on Truth

“…For this was I born, and for this I came into the world; that* I should give testimony to the truth***.” And most important “Every one that is of the truth, heareth my voice.” John 18.38
And His command to this Church IS: *“Going therefore, teach ye all nations… Teaching them to **observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you…”/***I] Matt. 28. 19-20

The simple answer then is this: if there is but one truth we must strive to find that truth in its fullness and follow and obey it. **Any deviation from the full truth cannot be ‘good’ **since it is only partially correct and therefore incomplete. So, any ‘branches’ of the Church that do not possess the whole truth are NOT THE Church.

Second, when answering as a Catholic, stick to answering what the Church teaches. As nice as some of the personal opinions here stated are (not all post, but many are opinion based), we cannot avoid the truth presuming to be charitable. So to the second part of the question “can non-Catholics be true and good Christians?”

I must first clarify that “No one is good but God alone…” if the Church is Holy is not because the Church is Catholic, but because the Church is the body of Christ. So, to be a Christian you must belong to this body; and to be a “true and good Christian” you MUST FOLLOW the whole truth and try to do it the best you can (“pick your cross daily and follow ME…”).

Now whether you can be a good Christian just because you call yourself Christian, or Catholic, or Protestant, or whatever, that is a different story, and I would not dare pass judgment as to the goodness or holiness of others.

But to tell you that you can be saved without the fullness of TRUTH would be a truly uncharitable thing indeed. So, if you accept and try to follow “ALL things whatsoever” He commanded then you would most likely find yourself a member of the One and True Church; anything short of that does not cut it.First off, welcome aboard Alex! (Good first post!)

Secondly, what he said. 👍
 
What is so hard to comprehend here?

There is One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, and outside of her there is to be found no salvation. This is a DOGMA of the Church. A dogma is an INFALLIBLE teaching of the Church- the Church cannot, cannot, err in her dogmas, it’s impossible. To say that the Church can be in error in pronouncing a dogma incurrs an Anathema- thats an automatic excommunication, which means your in schism.

What is so hard to understand? If you deny this essential and infallible teaching of the Church then you are no better then the “Catholics” who support gay marriage or abortion or who dont believe in Transubstantiation. To be Catholic, you must except that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church!
Amen.

Outside of the Catholic Church there is no salvation.

I dont really see where any other meaning could be wrenched out of those words without breaking the dogma.
 
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