To a Roman Catholic are Protestants good Christians?

[Missa_Solemnis]

Just remember, things arent as grey as most of you make them out to be. Christ did not dither.

I dont like black and white or grey.

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus is a clear doctrine.

Either solemn Gold…or bright Red.

I remind people that before this sudden change and spirit of Ecumenism…the only real people who were saved outside of the Church was righteous non-Catholic children.

Wether or not somone is in ignorance of the Church, they are still responsible for their mortal sins.

Something just about every non-Catholic (and Catholic for that matter) has fallen into.

Except of course for those righteous and blind non-catholic children.

And I have heard that if these lil righteous kids arent baptized…they go to Limbo, and not Heaven.

But the lines are really being blurred by all this dampness around the doctrine nowadays.

 

[Church_Militant]

So then you guys all know more than the magisterium does?

This is precisely why I will not hang with you guys. You remind me of all the anti-Catholic fundamentalists that I encounter.

Same sort of prideful fundamentalist rhetoric and level of charity.

Much as I would probably enjoy the TLM , I won’t attend one for fear that someone will be scandalized into believing that I am like you.

I think it’s shameful that so many choose to cling to the past because they don’t care for some aspect of the NO or some such when they could be of real use to the body of Christ if they just lost the attitude.

The magisterium says that Nulla Salus means what the CCC says it does. I have yet to see anyone in authority assert the position that Caesar & Missa Solemnis have. Since neither of you are even priests, much less Bishops, Cardinals or the Pope, you not only err, but scandalize others with your attitudes and rhetoric.

If this is the best that “Traditionalism” has to offer, then I don’t think I need it.

IMO You do more harm than good.

 

[rr1213]

So then you guys all know more than the magisterium does?

This is precisely why I will not hang with you guys. You remind me of all the anti-Catholic fundamentalists that I encounter.

Same sort of prideful fundamentalist rhetoric and level of charity.

Much as I would probably enjoy the TLM , I won’t attend one for fear that someone will be scandalized into believing that I am like you.

I think it’s shameful that so many choose to cling to the past because they don’t care for some aspect of the NO or some such when they could be of real use to the body of Christ if they just lost the attitude.

The magisterium says that Nulla Salus means what the CCC says it does. I have yet to see anyone in authority assert the position that Caesar & Missa Solemnis have. Since neither of you are even priests, much less Bishops, Cardinals or the Pope, you not only err, but scandalize others with your attitudes and rhetoric.

If this is the best that “Traditionalism” has to offer, then I don’t think I need it.

IMO You do more harm than good.

This is a remarkable discussion in revealing differences in Catholic opinion about Catholic dogma. As a non-Catholic, I don’t see how the same arguments that are thrown in my face (gently of course ) aren’t applicable here–that the Keys were given to Peter and the Church–not me–and that my personal interpretation of Scripture (or, in this case, personal interpretations of “dogmatic pronouncements of the Magisterium”)–is irrelevant–and that I am acting as my own Pope. Or am I missing something? I’m probably missing something. I’m sure that someone will insist that I am missing something…

 

[Randy_Carson]

This is a remarkable discussion in revealing differences in Catholic opinion about Catholic dogma. As a non-Catholic, I don’t see how the same arguments that are thrown in my face (gently of course ) aren’t applicable here–that the Keys were given to Peter and the Church–not me–and that my personal interpretation of Scripture (or, in this case, personal interpretations of “dogmatic pronouncements of the Magisterium”)–is irrelevant–and that I am acting as my own Pope. Or am I missing something? I’m probably missing something. I’m sure that someone will insist that I am missing something…

rr1213-

You are right to note the similarities. Those who are on this “SSPX/Traditionalist” end of the spectrum are actually kindred spirits with Protestantism in many respects. And - gently - all the things you stated above are true of both camps to varying degrees.

As a Protestant, you may be happy with some of the theology that the Catholic Church has given the world. You certainly accept the Trinity, the hypostatic union and our NT canon. You might even like some of the ECFs and a council or two. SSPXers and sedevacantists like all of that plus all the popes up til and including Pius XII.

The Orthodox split off around 1000 AD, you broke with Rome in the 16th century; SSPX broke a bit later. Traditionalists are in a slightly tighter orbit.

But we’re talking Pluto versus Mercury. Actually, See the analogy? Pluto is in orbit, but it is no longer considered a planet. Same thing.

 

[rr1213]

rr1213-

You are right to note the similarities. Those who are on this “SSPX/Traditionalist” end of the spectrum are actually kindred spirits with Protestantism in many respects. And - gently - all the things you stated above are true of both camps to varying degrees.

As a Protestant, you may be happy with some of the theology that the Catholic Church has given the world. You certainly accept the Trinity, the hypostatic union and our NT canon. You might even like some of the ECFs and a council or two. SSPXers and sedevacantists like all of that plus all the popes up til and including Pius XII.

The Orthodox split off around 1000 AD, you broke with Rome in the 16th century; SSPX broke a bit later. Traditionalists are in a slightly tighter orbit.

But we’re talking Pluto versus Mercury. Actually, See the analogy? Pluto is in orbit, but it is no longer considered a planet. Same thing.

I follow what you are saying.

 

[Caesar]

rr1213-

You are right to note the similarities. Those who are on this “SSPX/Traditionalist” end of the spectrum are actually kindred spirits with Protestantism in many respects. And - gently - all the things you stated above are true of both camps to varying degrees.

As a Protestant, you may be happy with some of the theology that the Catholic Church has given the world. You certainly accept the Trinity, the hypostatic union and our NT canon. You might even like some of the ECFs and a council or two. SSPXers and sedevacantists like all of that plus all the popes up til and including Pius XII.

The Orthodox split off around 1000 AD, you broke with Rome in the 16th century; SSPX broke a bit later. Traditionalists are in a slightly tighter orbit.

But we’re talking Pluto versus Mercury. Actually, See the analogy? Pluto is in orbit, but it is no longer considered a planet. Same thing.

You need to learn what traditionalism is.

 

[Fredricks]

Having read the traditional board, they are part of the CC but like a renewel portion(by returning to some traditional ways). Trying to keep things on the up and up. From what I read over at the liturgy section, the traditionalists are on to something. Liberalism is the enemy of all Christians, even I can see that as a Protestant.

 

[mrs_abbott]

The magisterium says that Nulla Salus means what the CCC says it does. I have yet to see anyone in authority assert the position that Caesar & Missa Solemnis have. Since neither of you are even priests, much less Bishops, Cardinals or the Pope, you not only err, but scandalize others with your attitudes and rhetoric.

If this is the best that “Traditionalism” has to offer, then I don’t think I need it.

IMO You do more harm than good.

I’m glad I’m not the only one who thought that way.

 

[Church_Militant]

Having read the traditional board, they are part of the CC but like a renewel portion(by returning to some traditional ways). Trying to keep things on the up and up. From what I read over at the liturgy section, the traditionalists are on to something. Liberalism

is the enemy of all Christians, even I can see that as a Protestant.There is no “liberalism” in following the magisterium of the church as stated in the CCC.

Some of the Traditionalists have chosen to attempt to infer that the development (I.E. understanding) of dogma is errant. They disobedient to do so and their rhetoric might well appeal to a fundamentalist n-C, except that they will tell you that you are going to hell because you are not a Catholic. Is that what you wanted to hear?

 

[Fredricks]

There is no “liberalism” in following the magisterium of the church as stated in the CCC.

Some of the Traditionalists have chosen to attempt to infer that the development (I.E. understanding) of dogma is errant. They disobedient to do so and their rhetoric might well appeal to a fundamentalist n-C, except that they will tell you that you are going to hell because you are not a Catholic. Is that what you wanted to hear?

well it really would not matter too much to me of course but that is what I always heard prior to Vatican 2. Regardless, I do not have a dog in this fight.

 

[MrS]

CM, I would like to say that I am surprised at your stance… but the discussions on TLM vs NO too often lead to opposing views.

Sometimes it is youth … where those under 30 really can’t compare what the two valid Masses have to offer. I can only first … discount the opinion because it has no basis, and second …encourage one to attend both and be comfortable with both. It will not make you a good or bad christian to have a preference.

Sometimes it is upbringing… the older folks (like me ) can remember the TLM and the attitudes of those who either enjoyed it or abused it.

But to encourage anyone here, Catholic or not, to take a position by dispariging either the TLM or the NO is disappointing.

I can only smile when I see posters say “I’m glad you think like me” or variations of that … IMHO it show me that neither have yet acquired the experience to really think

I have attended the NO for many years… and some, some where so very reverent. Some, yes some others were visibly a license for personal expression.

I have also had opportunity to attend some TLMs… most, yes most were extremely reverent. A couple were simply a version of a Latin Mass.

Bottom line… if the Eucharist is the ONLY reason for the Mass, we will be fine. If the other parts of the liturgy are treated as more significant than the Eucharist we will be in ruins.

Which, the NO or the TLM, will be more centered on the Eucharist? We probably know the answer… but each is entitled to his opinion.

What is the best the TLM has to offer… it is not the people who love it, support it or even “push” it. It is in the Eucharist, as is the case for the NO.

Less of me, more of Him…

.

 

[MrS]

There is no “liberalism” in following the magisterium of the church as stated in the CCC.

Some of the Traditionalists have chosen to attempt to infer that the development (I.E. understanding) of dogma is errant. They disobedient to do so and their rhetoric might well appeal to a fundamentalist n-C, except that they will tell you that you are going to hell because you are not a Catholic. Is that what you wanted to hear?

and do you suppose this extreme opinion only applies to your definition of a Traditionalist.

I consider myself more Traditional, with many more Traditional friends… none of whom support your opinion.

Do those who hold that opinion exist… probably yes… Traditional and not.

 

[mrs_abbott]

I consider myself more Traditional, with many more Traditional friends… none of whom support your opinion.

Thank you for sharing that. Now I understand why you think the way you do.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

As a Protestant, I can readily confirm that there are no “good Protestants”, not one. Indeed, we have all sinned and fallen well short of the glory of God.

Evangelicals don’t generally speak of “Good Christians”, since if any of us is Christlike, it is because of Christ himself working in us and not because of ourselves. In Him, we are new creations, but only because of Him. By grace we are saved through faith and it is a gift of God, not of works. Hence, we cannot boast.

So throw my hat in the “no good Protestants” camp.

 

[Church_Militant]

CM, I would like to say that I am surprised at your stance… but the discussions on TLM vs NO too often lead to opposing views.

Bottom line… if the Eucharist is the ONLY reason for the Mass, we will be fine. If the other parts of the liturgy are treated as more significant than the Eucharist we will be in ruins.

Which, the NO or the TLM, will be more centered on the Eucharist? We probably know the answer… but each is entitled to his opinion.

What is the best the TLM has to offer… it is not the people who love it, support it or even “push” it. It is in the Eucharist, as is the case for the NO

.

Less of me, more of Him… .Good points all.

I grew up on the Tridentine Mass and have no problems with it.

I agree that the Eucharist is the focus of all. As Our Lord said. “and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.” (John 12:32)

 

[mrs_abbott]

Good points all.

I grew up on the Tridentine Mass and have no problems with it.

I agree that the Eucharist is the focus of all. As Our Lord said. “and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.” (John 12:32)

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Gee, I think I stirred up a bit of a hornet’s nest and hijacked this thread by quoting the Catechism. My apologies to the OP. I guess I should start a new thread: What is your private interpretation of dogma? Seems like we Catholics are all over the place on this issue. Personally, I need to do a bit more research.

 

[Church_Militant]

and do you suppose this extreme opinion only applies to your definition of a Traditionalist.

I consider myself more Traditional, with many more Traditional friends… none of whom support your opinion.

Do those who hold that opinion exist… probably yes… Traditional and not.

Yet I would also describe myself as Traditional, but I do not fit in with those who seem to make so much of it.

No one who has read my posts here can say that I am not faithful to the teachings of the church and staunch in the defense of our most holy faith. However…I have no axe to grind and strive to be charitable in all that I post (which admittedly ain’t easy sometimes.). I don’t see that same effort and charity in most of the traditionalists posting here.

Don’t get me wrong, I also have at least one very close friend who is quite traditional and he and I defend the faith side by side many times.

Sadly most of the rest I have seen are nothing like him.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

Yet I would also describe myself as Traditional, but I do not fit in with those who seem to make so much of it.

No one who has read my posts here can say that I am not faithful to the teachings of the church and staunch in the defense of our most holy faith. However…I have no axe to grind and strive to be charitable in all that I post (which admittedly ain’t easy sometimes.). I don’t see that same effort and charity in most of the traditionalists posting here.

Don’t get me wrong, I also have at least one very close friend who is quite traditional and he and I defend the faith side by side many times.

Sadly most of the rest I have seen are nothing like him.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

The same can be said for some Protestants too.

 

[Church_Militant]

Gee, I think I stirred up a bit of a hornet’s nest and hijacked this thread by quoting the Catechism. My apologies to the OP. I guess I should start a new thread: What is your private interpretation of dogma? **Seems like we Catholics are all over the place on this issue. **

Personally, I need to do a bit more research.I don’t think we “are all over the place on this issue.”, just some folks choose to ignore the magisterial teachings of the church as if they know better than the Pope.