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MrS
Guest
actually there is a lot more… some good stuff found here:
newadvent.org/cathen/12738a.htm
and you know what is meant and what is necessary to this particular discusion… you do, don’t you??
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newadvent.org/cathen/12738a.htm
and you know what is meant and what is necessary to this particular discusion… you do, don’t you??
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MrS
Guest
by the way… the Church does differentiate between a conscience, and a well-formed conscience.
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Caesar
Guest
Like I have said before, the CCC is not Dogmatic. It is not infallible, and in this respect it is in conflict with all previous Catechisms. Dogma trumps the Catechism, which is merely a tool for the Faith, and in regards to the current CCC (or the common english translations) it is not a very good tool. The Baltimore Catechisms or the Catechism of St. Pius X are more reliable, or you can go to the Roman Catechism of the Council of Trent.
In any case, the Dogma is still the same- there is but One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church and outside of her is no salvation.
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StevenFrancis
Guest
This is actually something I think about a great deal. I am a “Roman” or technically Latin Rite Catholic. My brother and I just about 3 years ago both had a calling to follow Jesus. I am nearly 50 and my brother is 45. My conversion story would easily fill a book, but for the purposes of this thread, I’ll just focus on the fact that my brother ended up as a Lutheran, and I and my wife went on through RCIA, and have become Catholic. The only Christianity that we were exposed to growing up was the Lutheran denomination and also a brief stint with the Foursquare Baptists when we went to private school for a couple years. I was actually baptized back then at the school Chapel. My brother and I compare notes quite a bit, as we go through the Christian calendar, we discuss each liturgical season and so on. While I believe he is happy, and is getting what he feels he needs from the Lutheran Church, he has also mentioned a few things to me that I would not personally be fulfilled with. I don’t doubt his sincerity, and I respect that he is also a Christian, but it is very clear to me when we talk that there is a lot missing from his Church. Do I believe that he is a good Christian? Yes, I do. He is going through his life with faith in Jesus Christ, and that’s a good thing. But I don’t believe he’s getting everything that there is to get from Christian life. There is much missing from other Christian branches which would now leave me feeling pretty empty inside. We are only accountable and responsible for what we know. He has not heard the full truth yet in a way that I have. In a way that gets into the soul. I look at him as still going through his conversion, and I have faith that as he is exposed to more and more of the beauty of Catholicism, that he will eventually end up Catholic, so that he can share in the full sacramental life that Jesus set up for us in the Church. In fact, I have faith that all Christians will eventually come back. It’s what God wants for us. It was through his deep love that he left his Church and the Sacraments. So that we wouldn’t end up with the myriad of Christian churches that we have today. Eastern Rite Catholics, such as Byzantines etc. are already in full communion with the Church in Rome. Through Ecumenical work, I don’t think the Orthodox churches are far behind. After all, we share so much. When I was growing up, I was led to understand that the Catholics changed everything, and added books to the bible etc. I’ve only recently learned that it was actually the protestants who removed books from the bible. Catholics didn’t add anything. Protestants removed things instead. The Church was founded by Jesus Christ, through Peter, and has remained in tact throughout Christian history. Through dispicable times and bad Popes. But one thing has stayed constant. Even the “bad” Popes never gave bad teachings, even when their own lives were awful, the Church remained strong and steady. We will all be together in the fullness of time. In the mean time, we just regard other Christian paths as being incomplete, more than we regard them as wrong. They are missing things. They keep losing more and more of the point. The people are not bad Christians. They’re just moving farther and farther from the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles with each new division that occurs. It’s watered down to the point of relativism in a lot of cases now. Nothing has changed in the teachings and the truth. Every time a group of Christians feels that they can’t live with some piece of the truth or another, they just go ahead and start a new Church. They do this instead of conforming themselves to the teachings. They change, reduce or alter the teachings to suit a current political movement or community need, when everything was already laid out for us in a perfect way. It’s all there for the asking. Non Catholics are just sill on the path. They’re uncomfortable, or frankly don’t understand some concept, and therefore with societies current focus on the individual, time to start a new Church. A church for each individual that is ever changing, and that can be conformed to what a person’s comfort zone is, just is NOT what the Lord God has in mind for us. He left us a Church. It’s still here, and has over a Billion adherents. We’re patiently and Lovingly awaiting everyone else with open arms and hearts.
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MrS
Guest
I too have a brother in “denial”. He went to the seminary, lasted one year and was asked to leave… he asked too many good questions they would not or could not answer and he wanted to be a real priest… but the seminaries in the 60’s were a problem for sure. Anyway, he was so disallusioned, he left not only the seminary, but the Church. My almost 90 year old mother has always prayed to still be alive when he returns to the Church… and I can only join her in prayer… it all happens in God’s time, not ours.
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Unitas
Guest
I like to consider myself more of a traditionalist Catholic. I took the whole “outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation” as exactly the way it said. And the definition in the CCC is difficult to reconcile with a strict hard-line view of the doctrine. Then it hit me: Am I in disagreement with the CCC? This is terrible! I was dangerously close to feeneyism.
Obviously I needed to think about the doctrine long and hard. Then it all made sense:
I think all of us Catholics here can agree that the Church contains all truth, as it is the pillar of truth. And to be outside the complete truth there is no salvation.
But it never occured to me that to agree on a few truthful things in the Church must mean tht that person is not completely outside of the truth. (Catholic Church) Whatever truth protestants have, they got from us. So whatever amount of truth a person subscribes to directly reflects how inside or outside the Church they are. It could only be a little bit, or a lot. We don’t know for sure, only they do.
We need to look at it like not only is Catholicism the tuth, but the truth is Catholicicsm. To adhere to this truth is some small part places one in the Church some small part.
The more one’s beliefs are inside the truth (the Cathoilic Church) the better one’s chances are at salvation. But the reverse is also true that the further outside the truth a person is, the more their soul is in danger.
We need to define the truth as Catholicism, not just Catholicism as the truth.
Obviously I needed to think about the doctrine long and hard. Then it all made sense:
I think all of us Catholics here can agree that the Church contains all truth, as it is the pillar of truth. And to be outside the complete truth there is no salvation.
But it never occured to me that to agree on a few truthful things in the Church must mean tht that person is not completely outside of the truth. (Catholic Church) Whatever truth protestants have, they got from us. So whatever amount of truth a person subscribes to directly reflects how inside or outside the Church they are. It could only be a little bit, or a lot. We don’t know for sure, only they do.
We need to look at it like not only is Catholicism the tuth, but the truth is Catholicicsm. To adhere to this truth is some small part places one in the Church some small part.
The more one’s beliefs are inside the truth (the Cathoilic Church) the better one’s chances are at salvation. But the reverse is also true that the further outside the truth a person is, the more their soul is in danger.
We need to define the truth as Catholicism, not just Catholicism as the truth.
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mikew262
Guest
:banghead: Well, I showed you where you were wrong, but you believe what you want.
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Blue_Serenity
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Contarini
Guest
Officially proclaimed as dogma by RC standards perhaps not till the 14th or even 15th century, but a central part of Christian doctrine ever since the 3rd century (Cyprian). “No one can have God for his Father who does not have the Church for his mother.” That’s one of the foundational principles of orthodox Christianity.
Edwin
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rr1213
Guest
Sooooooo… If the Catholic Church directs its members to the Catechism for answers to theological questions…and faithful Catholics (let alone us poor dumb Protestants) are relying on the Catechism to understand Catholic teaching…and the Catechism does not correctly reflect the doctrine of the Church…is Hades prevailing over the Catholic Church or at least the English speaking portions thereof?
*St. Peter: Sorry, you can’t come in. Your doctrine is wrong.
Catholic: But…but…but…I faithfully followed the CCC!!!
St. Peter: Nope. It was wrong. It was merely a tool for the Faith, and not a very good tool at that…*
What do you call this? Scandal or something?
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rr1213
Guest
Good point, although it leaves open the question of “what is the church?” At least since the time that the Church underwent schism.
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MrS
Guest
Of course not…WHAT???The CCC is not infallible???
Infallibility is a “negative” protection. It is the protection **against **teaching dogmatic error in the matter of faith and/or morals.
Infallibility is a gift to the Magisterium to protect the Word of God… it is not a open license to do anything… it is a prevention to teach dogmatic error… the gates of hell will not prevail.
The special grace will continue to the end of time and will be held by the keeper of the keys… the Vicar of Christ… the spiritual papa/Pope of the Catholic Church.
The pope, bishops etc are sinners like you and I. They are not perfect… But the Church… Jesus Christ is perfect.
Does infallibility work… well let me just ask anyone to show where the Catholic Church has proclaimed as Truth, unchangable for all time, in all ages, for all men, that was not the truth… or that the Church “changed” at any time.
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MrS
Guest
that is your answer… it is just a tool, but a very good tool.
We are not subject to the CCC nor are we subject to the Bible. But we are subject to the Truth found in the correct interpretations of both.
Think of the CCC as a well thought out aid/tool that Catholics can have in their homes to help them…
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KindredSoul
Guest
Remotely faithful Catholics mainly tend to disagree on things like this, such as the fate of people who are not in visible union with the Church…you’ll notice that, any Catholic who believes the Catechism, who thus believes that people not in visible union with the Church may be saved, still believes it’s important to evangelize all people to the Catholic Faith if possible. It’s right there in the Catechism. In other words, it still shouldn’t change our practice, if we are sincere. Therefore, typically when Catholics disagree it’s heady and intellectual. Notice, if all sides are doing what they’re supposed to do, evangelizing, it doesn’t matter whether or not Protestants or saved in the economy of a (faithful) Catholics salvation, because either way he/she is still doing the right thing, no matter what he or she believes. This belief, one way or the other, only affects non-Catholics.This is a remarkable discussion in revealing differences in Catholic opinion about Catholic dogma. As a non-Catholic, I don’t see how the same arguments that are thrown in my face (gently of course) aren’t applicable here–that the Keys were given to Peter and the Church–not me–and that my personal interpretation of Scripture (or, in this case, personal interpretations of “dogmatic pronouncements of the Magisterium”)–is irrelevant–and that I am acting as my own Pope. Or am I missing something? I’m probably missing something. I’m sure that someone will insist that I am missing something…
The difference being, in Protestantism disagreements revolve around such things as “Is gay marriage okay?”, “Is abortion okay?”, “Is divorce okay?”, “Is the Trinity for real?”, etc. Things which make the very definition of Christian Doctrine/Ethics blurry; as a Protestant, I often didn’t know what I had to do to be faithful to the Truth in my own life nor what I should present as the definitively holy way of life to others. Having turned to the Catholic Church, I have a set idea, which never changes (assuming I’m informed of the Church’s teachings), as to what sort of life I should aim for if I want to be faithful. I might get confused about what happens to people who fall short of aiming for that ideal life, but I myself know to aim for it and to ideally invite and emplore others to do so as well. And regarding that much, all Catholics who adhere to Church teachings can and do agree.
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Alex_G
Guest
I couldn’t agree more with you. But, what if I am the messenger? Should I not be careful not to lead someone else into error? Or does that only apply to the clergy?
Interestingly enough this is exactly what my post, about being careful not to post personal opinion as Catholic teaching meant. If I claim to be a Catholic, and answer as such, people may think that my answer is what the Church believes, so if I am not sure what a particular teaching is I should not go telling others it is O.K. (or not) as long as it makes you happy. (By the way I had not taken issue with any of your posts until you took issue with mine and even now I tell you: I do not dare judge others, but thought it was important to remind some posters of the difference between opinions and correct teachings).
As far as us not being allowed to read the Bible, well, I remember reading (can remember where though) that the Church ‘recommended’ that only educated people read it, and this only to protect others from making erroneous interpretations of their own. However, if you have attend mass every Sunday for three consecutive years, after the Novus Ordo was implemented, you have heard the Bible read, almost, in its entirety. I for myself attended daily mass, almost without missing for nearly 6 years, and I have heard more than my share of errors, but never from the Church, only from some of her children.
Like it or not, the CC hierarchy is responsible for what we as Catholics know about the CC. What we are or have been taught is not always reliable.
Unfortunately, if you are a ‘confirmed’ Catholic this is not necessarily true. You have an obligation to seek the truth, and if you believe you have encountered an error, or something you dislike, I would recommend you find a reliable source, before you give an answer that may be incorrect.(just my opinion, which regretfully, is never too humble)
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Mom_of_5
Guest
Like it or not, the CC hierarchy is responsible for what we as Catholics know about the CC. What we are or have been taught is not always reliable.
Unfortunately, if you are a ‘confirmed’ Catholic this is not necessarily true. You have an obligation to seek the truth, and if you believe you have encountered an error, or something you dislike, I would recommend you find a reliable source, before you give an answer that may be incorrect.(just my opinion, which regretfully, is never too humble)
We are a pretty smart bunch here and know what an opinion is. What you have been writing is YOUR opinion and I can say that I attended Mass every day for most of my Catholic school years. When a child (or adult) is taught something by a teacher,religious or any other subject, must we check to see if it is correct???Ridiculous. Amen!!
Peace
Mom of 5
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Robert902
Guest
Personally I don’t think it matters to God very much how Catholics view Protestants. The thief on the cross is in heaven. He was neither Catholic nor Protestant. What mattered to Jesus was that he believed!
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Gamera
Guest
My answer: yes, certainly Protestants can be good Christians. I’m proud to be a brother in Christ to some strong Christians I know who are Protestants.
Catholics, however, have more tools available to help them in their spiritual lives (all seven sacraments, the guidance of Church authority, the examples of canonized saints, etc). That isn’t meant as a boast — if anything, that means we have less excuse for our failings.
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Caesar
Guest
I believe what the Church tells me to believe. You believe whatever suits you.
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