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Church_Militant
Guest
I would agree.The same can be said for some Protestants too.
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MrS
Guest
yep…very true… and IMHO I think that most of those “folks” are not from the Traditional mindset
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Prayer_Warrior
Guest
Well, perhaps “all over the place” was too broad of a statement. But I have seen posts all over the forums with varying opinions. Only baptized Catholics are saved…or it’s Catholics and some Orthodox… or its Catholics and Orthodox and protestants, but not Muslims. Or it is Catholics, Orthodox and Jews. That is what I meant. As far as this particular thread is concerned, you’re right, only a few conflicting opinions have been raised.As for me, I stand with the Magesterium 100%.
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Alex_G
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Once again I would like to say that to answer as a Catholic you must avoid your own opinion and follow the teachings of the Church.
Catechism is a compound word from the Greek roots Cathedra (teaching) and Echo (to repeat). So catechesis means the accurate repetition (rendition) of the teachings of Christ through His Church, and from this we know that:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church IS an infallible instrument of the magisterium.
If in doubt, read *Fidei Depositum *(Apostolic Constitution on the publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church) written by John Paul II of happy memory. Here are two small excerpts:
***“…(the CCC)… is a statement of the Church’s faith and of doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion…”
“The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is offered to every individual who asks us to give an account of the hope that is in us (cf 1 Pet 3:15) and who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes.”***
So as a Catholic if you find something in the CCC that you have a problem with, do not perish in your pride by relying in your interpretation but find clarification to your doubts from the Magisterium.
After 20 years of studying the Faith I find it more and more difficult to share in forums such as this. Because, although you find some truly knowledgeable and charitable people you also find scores of others (Catholic and non-Catholic) who are either to eager to be the instruments of God’s Justice (without mercy), or who think themselves more charitable than God and condemn His Justice.
Catechism is a compound word from the Greek roots Cathedra (teaching) and Echo (to repeat). So catechesis means the accurate repetition (rendition) of the teachings of Christ through His Church, and from this we know that:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church IS an infallible instrument of the magisterium.
If in doubt, read *Fidei Depositum *(Apostolic Constitution on the publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church) written by John Paul II of happy memory. Here are two small excerpts:
***“…(the CCC)… is a statement of the Church’s faith and of doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion…”
“The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is offered to every individual who asks us to give an account of the hope that is in us (cf 1 Pet 3:15) and who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes.”***
So as a Catholic if you find something in the CCC that you have a problem with, do not perish in your pride by relying in your interpretation but find clarification to your doubts from the Magisterium.
After 20 years of studying the Faith I find it more and more difficult to share in forums such as this. Because, although you find some truly knowledgeable and charitable people you also find scores of others (Catholic and non-Catholic) who are either to eager to be the instruments of God’s Justice (without mercy), or who think themselves more charitable than God and condemn His Justice.
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Mom_of_5
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You are correct. I am far more worried about the “TOO Catholic” folk, (meaning those who shout and holler the Catholic faith but in doing so are offensive against their protestant brothers and sisters) than I am about the good christian protestant. There is NO religion in heaven. God does not make everyone go to Mass on Sunday. Please, don’t tell me that it is found in the book of rev. that all in heaven are Catholic. I love my Catholic faith, but I am always disappointed when I know those who are intolerant of others and their beliefs. We convert others by our actions, not words. We turn others away by our words and actions. Lets be careful lest God turn us away.
For those of you who say that no one outside of the Catholic Church will be saved, consider this: What if you were born Methodist, or any other protestant religion and followed it faithfully? Would you be saved? Or, would you be so wise as to convert to Catholicism? Just wondering.
As for non-Catholic saints…Our priest said he would like to see “Mr. Greenjeans” canonized, if it were possible for the church to canonize non-Catholics. He was a minister of another faith who was probably one of the kindest people God ever made. I really believe there are many, many wonderful, saintly folks who are not Catholic and as for miracles, is it possible that we just don’t hear about them because they are not Catholic? I believe that God can and does work through those who love Him and He does not make sure those folks are Catholic before He grants the grace to do good.
Love and peace,
Mom of 5
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Alex_G
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P.S. The fact that someone labels himself traditional, or liberal, or anything else is a mistake, either you are a Catholic or you are not; either you accept the Deposit of the Faith in it’s entirety or you don not accept it at all. We are all imperfect and shall strive to walk the straight path even if we stumble here and again, but it is a dangerous thing to go on posting personal interpretations, opinions, and/or believes without regard to the possible damage to another’s soul.
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drsbraham2
Guest
Thank you to all of you who responded so well to this post…my son-in-law of 20 years has been in my face several times about this issue…he doesn’t believe that I am going to Heaven because I am NOT Catholic and he is teaching his children this fact (his own fact, that is)…I had one of my gandsons ask me, “Grandma, how come your not going to Heaven?” I was appalled, but kept my cool and said, “I am going to Heaven, honey”. and he said, but daddy said you weren’t because your not Catholic". I explained as best I could that we sometimes take different paths to go somewhere like the park, or the grocery store, but nonetheless we end up getting there"…he seemed to be ok with that explanation, after all he’s only 9…I pray for my grandchildren nightly…I pray that they will be good Christians and grow up to spread the good news, that Jesus should be first in their life and that HE DIED FOR ALL SINNERS!
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Malcolm_McLean
Guest
In any discussion of infallibility and the constancy of Catholic teaching, this is the one that is always mentioned. Successive revisions have watered down the doctrine by progressively redefining “Church” so that it is nearly impossible to be outside of it, thus reversing the previous doctrine in reality though not in theory.
However the Church has always been a bit vague on what happens to those who die with unrepented sins, in schism, and so forth. If we insisted on a very hardline interpretation then we would have to allow that prayers for dead Protestants are futile, which has never been taught.
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Mom_of_5
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Forgive me, please, it was not “Mr. Greenjeans”, it was Mr. Rogers himself. A Presbyterian minister.
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mikew262
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mikew262
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Yes! Well said!
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Mom_of_5
Guest
This post reminds me of my dear departed aunt who left the Catholic Church because of a priest. My aunts mother died in child birth at the age of 18, in about 1900. When my aunt wanted to enter a convent, the priest told her that her mother did not go to heaven because she was not a Catholic. Needless to say, my aunt was stunned. She not only didn’t enter the convent, she left the CC. As she said, “if my dear young mother who died giving me life cannot go to the CC heaven, I don’t want to be there either”. We all knew how hurt she was all her many years, but she was always the one who did the good christian deeds in the family. The people who represent the church, priests, nuns, Bishops, etc. have in some instances,all too many, done a great deal of harm to the Church. Not everyone can overlook what these people do and say “in the name of God”. We say the the Church cannot error, but it is the “messenger” who really counts. I believe my dear aunt is in the prescence of God and her dear mother.
Love and peace,
Mom of 5
p.s. For those of you who do not think “personal opinions” should be posted, sorry!!!
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Alex_G
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In answering as a Catholic, you MUST answer, in charity, with the teaching of the Church. If you want to post your opinion that is perfectly fine, but saying I am Catholic but I do not agree with the teachings of Christ is not only a contradiction, IT IS WRONG.
Personal opinions are just that, opinions. How does the opinion of a priest (that may be in error) differ from the opinion of anyone else? In matters of Faith and Morals it makes no difference to me; I would rather heed the teachings of the Church.
As for a priest having a right to tell your aunt if someone did not go to heaven , may be just as wrong as anyone saying who did (other than those infallible declared to be there by an act of the magisterium). I can accept your opinion as to your aunt being in heaven, but just as my opinion cannot prevent her from being there, your opinion does not get her an automatic ticket.
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water
Guest
Despite of what the priest had said I wish your aunt had never left CC. There were many saints who had been denied by many convents, but with their prayers and humility they stayed with CC, and God put them where He wished.
Example: St. Faustina.
sorry, this is off topic.
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MrS
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Caesar
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What is next? The Protestant “eucharist” is really the Real Presence?
Christ did not teach us to live by our own personal opinions. Whether you want the protestants and the liberals and all classes of pagans to be saved or not, it doesnt matter. Christ teaches through the Church, and the infallible Dogma of the Church has spoken.
Dogma cannot change even if all the liberals here wanted it to. It cannot change of all the liberals in the world wanted it to. And all of you who denounce anyone with a hint of orthodox faith and say they are against the magisterium are hypocrits, for you are against dogma.
I will say it again:
There is One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church and outside of her is to be found no salvation. So says the Church, so says Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Christ did not teach us to live by our own personal opinions. Whether you want the protestants and the liberals and all classes of pagans to be saved or not, it doesnt matter. Christ teaches through the Church, and the infallible Dogma of the Church has spoken.
Dogma cannot change even if all the liberals here wanted it to. It cannot change of all the liberals in the world wanted it to. And all of you who denounce anyone with a hint of orthodox faith and say they are against the magisterium are hypocrits, for you are against dogma.
I will say it again:
There is One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church and outside of her is to be found no salvation. So says the Church, so says Our Lord Jesus Christ.
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mikew262
Guest
An off-issue correction of MrS’ post:
Religion simply means a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects. Nothing more, nothing less. God may or may not be part of the equation in a specific religion.
Right or wrong, many feel having a personal relationship with God is much more important than being part of a formal religion or denomination. Formal religion has been the cause of much strife and violence over the history of the world.
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Mom_of_5
Guest
I do believe in Christ’s teachings or I would not be Catholic or certainly not be christian at all. I do not know how you have arrived at the idea that I do not believe in Christ’s teachings?
I am over 60 as you might suspect. The CC I grew up with was to be obeyed, no matter what. That includes those who gave the “messages”. (priests, nuns, etc.) We were not allowed to read the Bible unless we had a nun or priest to help us “understand” the Bible. I had to “catch up” with the Bible in my older years. My dear grandmother read the Bible and was helpful to me in my teens. Now, suddenly, we are expected to know and quote the contents of a book that we were not allowed to read only under supervision. I did memorize the Catechism, over and over, every year of my Catholic schooling, 1/12. I spend a great deal of time studying religion, my beloved CC as well as many others.
The teachings of the CC are passed through the “messengers”, that includes priests, nuns, lay teachers. If that messenger tells it wrong, it is not the fault of the person recieving the message if he/she accepts it. We don’t all have time to read all the Canons of the CC. We shouldn’t have to. We should be able to rely on the “messenger”. The “teacher” represents the CC. Like it or not, the CC hierarchy is responsible for what we as Catholics know about the CC. What we are or have been taught is not always reliable. That does not make me someone who does not believe in the teachings of Christ.Through the years I have personally learned that along with Church teachings, we have to use good common sense that the good Lord gave us. Hard to come by these days.
Love and peace,
Mom of 5
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mrs_abbott
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mikew262
Guest
Not entirely accurate.
CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.1
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