To a Roman Catholic are Protestants good Christians?

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mikew262

Many Protestant’s reject Catholic teachings because they feel they are wrong. They are still Christians, and have just as much chance getting to Heaven as you do.

Apparently your belief is that Catholic teachings are not the teachings of Christ, but rather of the Church, and therefore can be safely ignored by Protestants.

I admit I do struggle with some Catholic doctrine including the Real Presence, as many do. Is it full blown rejection? No, I don’t think so. I’m in constant conversation with God over these struggles.

Well, I’m glad for you. Keep struggling.

My issue with you is you taking it upon yourself to judge who is a worthy Christian and who isn’t. It’s not your call and I recommend unless you want to be held accountable for it someday, you knock it off and worry more about yourself.

Now who is sitting in judgment?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
 
rr1213

Yes or no, does your Church teach that it is possible that people may die as Orthodox believers and be saved? Does your Church teach that it is possible that people may die as Protestant believers and be saved? Is it possible that people may die as non-Christians and be saved?

I believe and hope the Church teaches that the answer to all of these questions is yes. However, If any member of any of these groups knowingly rejects the teachings of Christ that are also taught by the Catholic Church, all bets are off except on a penitent deathbed.

We cannot reject Christ with impunity and expect to be saved. God alone knows and judges which of us has rejected him with impunity and which of us has rejected his teachings from ignorance or some other human reason.

The namby-pamby Catholic liberals think all good Christians will be saved, including those who knowingly repudiate, for example, the divinity of Jesus or the Trinity (which are clearly taught in the Bible that Protestants are supposed to know so much better than Catholics). We are either with Jesus or we are against him. There’s no straddling the fence. We don’t get to choose with impunity those truths we will believe. That is the Protestant mindset. That is why there are thousands of Protestant sects. Some Catholics should just go ahead and jump over the fence, pick a sect, and stop scandalizing the Catholic faithful.
 
mrs_abbott said:
Say what you will but it’s not Christ’s way of thinking. The Bible shows many instances where he exercises mercy to the sinner. There was no religion then. To barr someone from Heaven simply because they’re not Catholic is against God.
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Really now? Evidence please.
 
Gilbert_Keith said:
rr1213

Yes or no, does your Church teach that it is possible that people may die as Orthodox believers and be saved? Does your Church teach that it is possible that people may die as Protestant believers and be saved? Is it possible that people may die as non-Christians and be saved?

I believe and hope the Church teaches that the answer to all of these questions is yes. However, If any member of any of these groups knowingly rejects the teachings of Christ that are also taught by the Catholic Church, all bets are off except on a penitent deathbed.

We cannot reject Christ with impunity and expect to be saved. God alone knows and judges which of us has rejected him with impunity and which of us has rejected his teachings from ignorance or some other human reason.

The namby-pamby Catholic liberals think all good Christians will be saved, including those who knowingly repudiate, for example, the divinity of Jesus or the Trinity (which are clearly taught in the Bible that Protestants are supposed to know so much better than Catholics). We are either with Jesus or we are against him. There’s no straddling the fence. We don’t get to choose with impunity those truths we will believe. That is the Protestant mindset. That is why there are thousands of Protestant sects. Some Catholics should just go ahead and jump over the fence, pick a sect, and stop scandalizing the Catholic faithful.
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God knows–no pun intended–that I am no expert on your Church’s teachings, although I am trying to learn. From what I’ve seen though, what you posted above is much closer to what your Church teaches, and reflects a more nuanced understanding of “there is no salvation outside of the Church”, than the blanket statements asserted by our friend Caesar in post no. 72 above.
 
rr1213 said:
God knows–no pun intended–that I am no expert on your Church’s teachings, although I am trying to learn. From what I’ve seen though, what you posted above is much closer to what your Church teaches, and reflects a more nuanced understanding of “there is no salvation outside of the Church”, than the blanket statements asserted by our friend Caesar.
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It was Ceaser?!?!
All along I thought it was Christ Himself.
I Learn sumtin new daily.
 
rr1213 said:
Look at the author of post # 72 above.
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Ok, I read it.
In part it says:
This is a DOGMA of the Church. A dogma is an INFALLIBLE teaching of the Church-

He doesn’t say it’s his teaching, but the Church, as in:
Matt 18:
17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And** if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican**. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

That’s not so hard to relate to or is it?
There’s more:
Sample:
Mark 16
15 And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature.16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

Which leaves not a lot of wiggle room except for those who never heard any gospel at all.
 
TNT said:
Ok, I read it.
In part it says:
This is a DOGMA of the Church. A dogma is an INFALLIBLE teaching of the Church-

He doesn’t say it’s his teaching, but the Church, as in:
Matt 18:
17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And** if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen** and publican. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

That’s not so hard to relate to or is it?
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Take a look at the exchange of posts above. It appears that the concept is easy enough to understand, but some of the exceptions acknowledged by the Church are more complicated.
 
rr1213 said:
Take a look at the exchange of posts above. It appears that the concept is easy enough to understand, but some of the exceptions acknowledged by the Church are more complicated.
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I’ve been reading the nuance posts on this subject for longer than I care to admit.
I do not know why some people are so “obsessed” with getting people saved outside the Church.
Why don’t we just convince them into the Church and be done with it?
If they refuse, leave that up to God and not try to invest them with salvation anyway.
In the end, neither you nor I or anyone on this Forum can say, “Yep, that adult is in heaven, no doubt.”
So why pretend that we know the unknown?
The only thing we do know is that God gave us the pathway to salvation, and we should make use of it and share it with all who will listen.
That’s all.
 
TNT said:
That’s not so hard to relate to or is it?
There’s more:
Sample:
Mark 16
15 And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature.16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

Which leaves not a lot of wiggle room except for those who never heard any gospel at all.
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I know I keep hammering this, but again… the understanding of the word believe as used 2000 years ago was to obey. It is not just an assent… it is acceptance followed by obedience.

Hence TNT is quoting correctly… if you are disobedient, you will be punished accordingly

so… one who has no opportunity to receive the Gospel, and has no opportunity of believe… will not be disobedient.

.
 
I hear the phrase “Outside the Church there is not salvation” quite a bit. But in the Catechism, right above this section it defines just who belongs to the Church. And the winner is… everyone!!! From the Catechism:

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 “All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.” There is more on this here.

The entire reason for the “outside the Church” slogan was for those who know the truth of the Church and still turn their back on it. In other words they reject the Church (grave matter) with deliberate consent and full knowledge== mortal sin. Those who reject the Church (grave matter) but do not have full knowledge and deliberate consent are not necessarily in mortal sin, therefore they still have the chance to attain salvation. From a Catholic standpoint, Christ Himself is the Head of the Church, since salvation comes from Him, it will be done through the Church. But the catechism does not seem to indicate that one absolutely must be an official member of the Catholic Church to belong to the catholic (universal) Church in order to be saved. In fact, a few paragraphs after the one cited above, it flat out says that those who do not know Christ or His Church, through no fault of their own, may still attain salvation.

Am I misunderstanding what the Catechism is saying?
 
Prayer_Warrior said:
I hear the phrase “Outside the Church there is not salvation” quite a bit. But in the Catechism, right above this section it defines just who belongs to the Church. And the winner is… everyone!!! From the Catechism:

** Who belongs to the Catholic Church? **

836 “All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.” There is more on this here.

…
Am I misunderstanding what the Catechism is saying?
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Why all the enumerations if: “And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.”
All mankind covers all the other folks enumerated, so why be naming groups at all??

Let me see:
I call my son John: “John, Come home for dinner.”
He never shows up.
Therefore he’s somehow at the table to enjoy the meal that he missed?
This gets curiouser & curiouser.
 
Prayer_Warrior said:
… In fact, a few paragraphs after the one cited above, it flat out says that those who do not know Christ or His Church, through no fault of their own, may still attain salvation.

Am I misunderstanding what the Catechism is saying?
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Why not.
If you think I’m gonna risk life, limb & family to convert some Apache tribe in 1740ad who may be saved anyway, you got another thing commin.
 
The entire reason for the “outside the Church” slogan was for those who know the truth of the Church and still turn their back on it. In other words they reject the Church (grave matter) with deliberate consent and full knowledge== mortal sin. Those who reject the Church (grave matter) but do not have full knowledge and deliberate consent are not necessarily in mortal sin, therefore they still have the chance to attain salvation. From a Catholic standpoint, Christ Himself is the Head of the Church, since salvation comes from Him, it will be done through the Church. But the catechism does not seem to indicate that one absolutely must be an official member of the Catholic Church to belong to the catholic (universal) Church in order to be saved. In fact, a few paragraphs after the one cited above, it flat out says that those who do not know Christ or His Church, through no fault of their own, may still attain salvation.
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Am I misunderstanding what the Catechism is saying?
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Although I hate to say it, the CCC itself is not infallible. When it comes down to it, Dogma trumps the CCC.

Besides, all the previous Catechisms outright agreed with the Dogma that outside the Church there is no salvation.
 
TNT said:
I’ve been reading the nuance posts on this subject for longer than I care to admit.
I do not know why some people are so “obsessed” with getting people saved outside the Church.
Why don’t we just convince them into the Church and be done with it?
If they refuse, leave that up to God and not try to invest them with salvation anyway.
In the end, neither you nor I or anyone on this Forum can say, “Yep, that adult is in heaven, no doubt.”
So why pretend that we know the unknown?
The only thing we do know is that God gave us the pathway to salvation, and we should make use of it and share it with all who will listen.
That’s all.
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Not sure I like where that leads me as a Protestant, but well said.
 
Caesar said:
Although I hate to say it, the CCC itself is not infallible. When it comes down to it, Dogma trumps the CCC.

Besides, all the previous Catechisms outright agreed with the Dogma that outside the Church there is no salvation.
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I thought that the CCC was based on dogma. There seems to be lots of footnotes to various Church documents as well as Scripture. In any event, I think we’ve reached the point where I’ll stay out of the discussion. I don’t think that I am qualified to have an opinion as to whether the Catechism of the Catholic Church is a faithful statement of the teachings of the Catholic Church or not. That sounds like an intramural Traditional vs. Contemporary Catholic fight to me… 😉
 
rr1213 said:
I thought that the CCC was based on dogma. There seems to be lots of footnotes to various Church documents as well as Scripture. In any event, I think we’ve reached the point where I’ll stay out of the discussion. I don’t think that I am qualified to have an opinion as to whether the Catechism of the Catholic Church is a faithful statement of the teachings of the Catholic Church or not. That sounds like an intramural Traditional vs. Contemporary Catholic fight to me… 😉
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It is based on the teachings of the Church, but it is not an infallible decree, like a Dogma. We are not obligated by our faith to follow the CCC (or any Catechism for that matter, ) as we are obligated to follow a Dogma.

A Catechism is merely a tool to explain the faith, not the faith itself.
 
I think it is important to remember that a title is merely that… a title. I can call myself anything I want but my actions determine what I am. I do not think that merely ‘being a good person’ is what makes one a good Christian. I believe that the only judgment can be made by Christ and all other judgments are limited by the knowledge that God reveals to us and can, by that understanding, only lead to a wrongful judgment. I am Roman Catholic and I do believe that I am worshipping in the One True Church, but I do not judge others or whether they are ‘good Christians’. I do not think it is our call to make.

“Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona nobis pacem!”
LS
 
Lets look at an argument for Salvation outside the Church. We will forget for now that Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus is a Dogma of the Church and infallible, and we will also assume that all other aspects and teachings of the Catholic faith remain the same.

Argument: If we are virtuous we will be saved. (A rather simplistic argument to be sure, but one that is held by many calling themselves Catholic today).

Objection: Who can decide what is virtuous and what is not? All religions have varying ideas of what can be considered virtuous. We are then left with three possibilities:

I) That virtue is all relative. If one man believes something to be just and another believes that same thing to be unjust, they are both correct according to their own understandings. Just as virtue is relative, so sin is relative as well. The only true sin would be for a man to go against what he personally believes to be a virtue.

However, if virtue and sin is relative, then the Incarnation of Our Lord Jesus Christ would have been without point, for in such a situation His teachings would have been without point. Therefore, Possibility I cannot be reconciled to the Catholic Faith.

II) That virtue is determined by the teachings of Christ. There is but one set of virtues and those are of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

However, if virtue is determined by Christ, then a man who believes that something which is contrary to the teachings of Christ is virtuous, he will not be saved. Since many religions believe things to be virtuous which are contrary to the true teachings of Our Lord, Possibility II cannot be reconciled to a belief that those outside the Catholic Faith can be saved.

III) That nothing is virtuous, or that virtue has no bearing on salvation.

However, if virtue has no bearing on salvation, what does? Possibility III cannot be reconciled to the Catholic Faith as the Faith teaches that virtue is in part necessary for salvation.

Therefore, it is false to say that salvation is by virtue alone.
 
Just remember, things arent as grey as most of you make them out to be. Christ did not dither.
 
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