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AnAtheist
Guest
Carl said:
That’s right. And I do think that lots of “no religion”-people *acknowledge *a higher power, often simply because of tradition, they just don’t care. Those are not atheists btw.
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That’s right. And I do think that lots of “no religion”-people *acknowledge *a higher power, often simply because of tradition, they just don’t care. Those are not atheists btw.
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SPOKENWORD
Guest
Hi AnAtheist, What does your God given conscience say to you?
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Carl
Guest
But then, some of the Christians I have dealt with in my life have been worse infidels than any atheist I’ve come across.
I would ask you to consider rephrasing that sentence, so that I could agree with it.
“*Some of the Christians who call themselves Christians * I have dealt with in my life have been worse infidels than any atheists I’ve come across.”
I could agree whole heartedly with that sentence.
Which brings us back to the point I made before. Some people lie about themselves and lie to themselves. A man is not a poet because he calls himself a poet. He has to write poetry, not drivel, to be a poet. Likewise, a man has to be a Christian to call himself a Christian. There are, no doubt, many people in prison who call themselves Christian but who have never been to Church in 20-30 years. Yet, out of force of habit, they might, when asked, identify themselves as belonging to this or that denomination just because their parents took them to Church when they were children. This is just one of the ways statistics can be used to skewer the breakdown of prison populations.
The bottom line is that you go into a prison and you observe for yourself. You are more likely to be right in believing what you see than to believe some skewered statistical study.
This is how you do it. You find out how many prisoners are housed in the prison. Then you go to the chapel services for all the denominations and you count those in regular attendance. Then you find out, as I have, that the vast majority of prisoners have no use for religion.
Then you ask yourself: So why are the vast majority in prison?
I would ask you to consider rephrasing that sentence, so that I could agree with it.
“*Some of the Christians who call themselves Christians * I have dealt with in my life have been worse infidels than any atheists I’ve come across.”
I could agree whole heartedly with that sentence.
Which brings us back to the point I made before. Some people lie about themselves and lie to themselves. A man is not a poet because he calls himself a poet. He has to write poetry, not drivel, to be a poet. Likewise, a man has to be a Christian to call himself a Christian. There are, no doubt, many people in prison who call themselves Christian but who have never been to Church in 20-30 years. Yet, out of force of habit, they might, when asked, identify themselves as belonging to this or that denomination just because their parents took them to Church when they were children. This is just one of the ways statistics can be used to skewer the breakdown of prison populations.
The bottom line is that you go into a prison and you observe for yourself. You are more likely to be right in believing what you see than to believe some skewered statistical study.
This is how you do it. You find out how many prisoners are housed in the prison. Then you go to the chapel services for all the denominations and you count those in regular attendance. Then you find out, as I have, that the vast majority of prisoners have no use for religion.
Then you ask yourself: So why are the vast majority in prison?
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Carl
Guest
By the way, the two prisons I visit regularly contain about 3,000 prisoners between them. In one prison, which has a population of 1,000, about 20-25 Catholics attend chapel each week.
At the other prison, which has a population of about 2,000, about 50 Catholics attend chapel each week.
About 75 Catholics out of 3,000 prisoners are real Catholics.
Am I supposed to ignore what I see and harken to phoney statistics instead?
At the other prison, which has a population of about 2,000, about 50 Catholics attend chapel each week.
About 75 Catholics out of 3,000 prisoners are real Catholics.
Am I supposed to ignore what I see and harken to phoney statistics instead?
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ahimsaman72
Guest
I would ask you to re-phrase your sentence so that I may agree with it:
About 75 out of those 3,000 prisoners are practicing, devoted Catholics.
They are real either way. One group may be cradle Catholics (who are real) and the other is practicing, go to church every Sunday Catholics.
Don’t you hate it when people do that to you?, i.e. Re-phrase your statements?
In your mind, a real Catholic is one that goes to confession, prays the Rosary, takes communion as often as possible. I would posit that a real Catholic is one in spirit and practice. You may have one that is a practicing Catholic, but only does so because it’s tradition, not because they love Christ.
In the end, who is “real” and who is “not real” is your opinion and the same in my case. Only they and their God know the true answer.
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ahimsaman72
Guest
Carl said:
First off - my sentence is true as I stated it. There’s no need to re-phrase so that you may “agree with it”. All people sin - do wrong things. You committing a mortal sin or even a venial sin doesn’t make you less Catholic. It hurts your relationship with your God.
If we wanted to split hairs, we could get to the point where nobody but St. Peter and St. Paul could ever enter heaven. It doesn’t help to discriminate between who is a “true” Christian and who is not a “true Christian”.
Maybe they have turned off in their life by religion. Maybe they were religious at one time, made mistakes - ended up in prison, and now feel like they can’t go back to their religion and be in good-standing. We could speculate all day on why they “have no use for religion”. The only way to figure it out is to ask every single prisoner about their situation and see what comes out. Some may lie to you - no matter. At least you get an idea.
Why are the vast majority in prison?
Because they are all no account losers who are atheists? No.
Because they committed a crime? Yes.
Peace…
C
Carl
Guest
*Why are the vast majority in prison?
Because they are all no account losers who are atheists? No.*
Yes. But not because they are no account losers.
Because they are atheists in their hearts. They have disconnected with God, denied His reality and His love, severed themselves from the Body of Christ.
Do you want religion to be of the head only? It is not. It is in the head and the heart. If it is not in both, it is not religion. If anyone pretends he is a Christian and behaves like a criminal without a conscience, he is a liar, both to himself and to the world. This does not mean that Christians cannot sin, or that they will not commit crimes. But if they are Christians they will repent. The atheist does not repent because there is no one to repent to. Why should he not continue his career of crime if he thinks he can get away with it because he is not afraid of judgment or punishment, as AnAtheist claimed elsewhere?
Likewise, it is stupid to call Hitler a Catholic, as some do, because he was baptized and confirmed one. That is a label only. He rejected God in his heart. He dissociated himself from the Body of Christ. There was no evidence of holiness in him. He was a criminal clean through … and an admirer of that other monumental atheist … Nietzsche.
I rewrite your sentence to see if you can agree with the re-write, not to speak for you.
Because they are all no account losers who are atheists? No.*
Yes. But not because they are no account losers.
Because they are atheists in their hearts. They have disconnected with God, denied His reality and His love, severed themselves from the Body of Christ.
Do you want religion to be of the head only? It is not. It is in the head and the heart. If it is not in both, it is not religion. If anyone pretends he is a Christian and behaves like a criminal without a conscience, he is a liar, both to himself and to the world. This does not mean that Christians cannot sin, or that they will not commit crimes. But if they are Christians they will repent. The atheist does not repent because there is no one to repent to. Why should he not continue his career of crime if he thinks he can get away with it because he is not afraid of judgment or punishment, as AnAtheist claimed elsewhere?
Likewise, it is stupid to call Hitler a Catholic, as some do, because he was baptized and confirmed one. That is a label only. He rejected God in his heart. He dissociated himself from the Body of Christ. There was no evidence of holiness in him. He was a criminal clean through … and an admirer of that other monumental atheist … Nietzsche.
I rewrite your sentence to see if you can agree with the re-write, not to speak for you.
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BlessedBe13
Guest
Carl said:
Again, you are making a very broad statement. My boyfriend is an athiest, but he is not a criminal. As has been said before, he has a better set of morals and values than some Christians I have known.
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ahimsaman72
Guest
Carl said:
You would seriously posit that the vast majority are in prison because they are atheists? This seems very absurd. I would say they are there because they committed a crime - not because they were black, white, Hindu, Christian, Atheist, man or woman.
I believe all mankind is born with a conscience. I’m not sure if the Catholic Church agrees with that assesment. People know when they do something wrong or right. Cain knew he was wrong when he killed his brother. He just denied his conscience. There was no Mosaic law that said “Do not kill”. Yet, God gave him punishment for it. And Cain knew to murder his brother was wrong.
Religion is both belief (faith) and practice. Yes. But who are you and I to judge that persons faith and practice?
Atheists can absolutely repent. They don’t have to have “somebody in the sky” to repent to. They can repent by apologizing and making reparation to those they harm (as us Christians should do). I don’t believe they commit crimes because they don’t believe in God. They commit crimes because they get angry and kill their spouse. They sell drugs to make money. They rob people to get what they don’t have. They don’t commit crimes because they don’t have God in their hearts.
Christians have the same problem with sin that the rest of the world does. They have the obligation to repent and make amends for their wrongful ways - just like everyone else. I like the bumper sticker that says, “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven”.
I don’t know Hitler well enough to discern his heart or beliefs. I can assume he wasn’t faithful in his heart. I can assume he totally turned his back on God. I can also assume other states and religious entities have perfomed atrocities as well. Does that mean they weren’t faithful to God? I also know that Israel totally wiped out certain tribes of people while settling the promised land. They killed man, women and children. Were they outside of God’s will?
Peace…
C
Carl
Guest
Religion is both belief (faith) and practice. Yes. But who are you and I to judge that persons faith and practice?
You are absolutely right. We are not to judge. That is God’s business.
Yet we have an obligation to care for each other and encourage each other to follow God because, unlike Cain, we are supposed to be our brother’s keeper rather than murderer.
You are absolutely right. We are not to judge. That is God’s business.
Yet we have an obligation to care for each other and encourage each other to follow God because, unlike Cain, we are supposed to be our brother’s keeper rather than murderer.
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Carl
Guest
AnAtheist
Assuming an atheist is automatically a bad person is as rubbish as regarding a catholic a bad person without knowing him.
I agree, as you can see in post # 74.
We were talking about atheists in prison not the atheist in the street.
Assuming an atheist is automatically a bad person is as rubbish as regarding a catholic a bad person without knowing him.
I agree, as you can see in post # 74.
We were talking about atheists in prison not the atheist in the street.
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AnAtheist
Guest
I am not quite sure, what you want to know exactly, but I’ll try a wild guess:Hi AnAtheist, What does your God given conscience say to you?
My biologically evolved and socially trained conscience tells me, that breaking the foundation of a society (aka laws) is wrong, because they keep the society functioning. And without a society humans cannot survive. Conscience is part of the survival instinct.
Sprry if that answer went into the wrong direction, please state your question more precise.
Peace
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ahimsaman72
Guest
Carl said:
I can agree with this. I want only your good as well as mine.
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Carl
Guest
AnAtheist
Conscience is part of the survival instinct.
I can agree with this so far as it goes. I’m curious, what would you see as the distinction(s) between the conscience of a Christian and the conscience of an atheist?
Conscience is part of the survival instinct.
I can agree with this so far as it goes. I’m curious, what would you see as the distinction(s) between the conscience of a Christian and the conscience of an atheist?
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AnAtheist
Guest
I’d say there is not much difference. Both learn what’s wrong or right from their social environment. Both have “build-in”, i.e. genetically predetermined, barriers to harm the society to an extend. Both can ignore it.
I see only one diference: An atheist of course does not behold his conscience as God-given. He therefore looks for other reason, where it comes from and why it is like it is. But that’s only the reason for conscience not conscience itself. What I mean is, the process of getting a conscience does not say anything about its quality.
You said in this thread, that Christians will follow the law or might I say moral standards more than the non-religious (please note that, it is not the same as an atheist), because they fear unescapable punishment. I agree to that. But that is out of fear not because of their conscience. Anyway, I don’t care whether I am not robbed or not killed by a Christian out of fear or out of conscience, it is a good thing either way.
Believe me, I as nearly everybody else wish there should be justice, and if it not carried out in this life then please in the next. But wishful thinking doesn’t make it true.
Oh, btw, if that means anything to you: The teaching of the purgatory makes much more sense in this context, than the protestants’ “if you accept Jesus, you’ll get (directly) into heaven, no matter what you have done before, if you don’t you’ll burn in hell forever.” stuff. . Punishment and hope in the afterlife, much more effective to keep the people in line.
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Carl
Guest
What I mean is, the process of getting a conscience does not say anything about its quality.
This is certainly true.
I think you might agree that the conscience of a Christian is formed by Christian values taught to a child and reinforced throughout life by his family, his church community, and to a certain extent people in other church communities, not to mention the courts of law.
How is the conscience of an atheist formed from childhood onward?
This is certainly true.
I think you might agree that the conscience of a Christian is formed by Christian values taught to a child and reinforced throughout life by his family, his church community, and to a certain extent people in other church communities, not to mention the courts of law.
How is the conscience of an atheist formed from childhood onward?
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Carl
Guest
AnAtheist and OTHERS
I am starting a new thread titled “HOW IS AN ATHEIST CONSCIENCE FORMED?”
I will be posting over there from now on.
Thanks all for a spirited dialogue.
Peace,
Carl
I am starting a new thread titled “HOW IS AN ATHEIST CONSCIENCE FORMED?”
I will be posting over there from now on.
Thanks all for a spirited dialogue.
Peace,
Carl
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UnknownCloud
Guest
Atheists claim that their atheism is NOT a religion - that is, it is not based on any dogma or ‘faith’ in anything. Obviously, that is wrong, since the doctrine of ‘no god’ preceeds EVERY OTHER idea that an atheist has about atheism. That is paradoxical. You cannot claim that your atheism is entirely rational, because a rational conclusion must agree with First Principles, facts, and evidence. There are no First Principles, no facts and no evidence against there being a God. Therefore, atheism is a religion, and if not a religion, an ideology of religious indifference.
Therefore, I am a true atheist because I am indifferent about atheism.
Peace
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wolpertinger
Guest
The minimal standard an atheist has to meet is to not affirm that god exists, which is semantically different from denying that god exists. To speak of a doctrine presupposes that:
If atheism is a religion, then health is a disease or baldness is a hair color… Nor is atheism itself an ideology - it’s at most an attribute of one. It is technically correct, though, that atheism implies an indifference to theistic religions.
Welcome to the club. Somebody will get around teaching you the secret handshake.
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AnAtheist
Guest
I can live with the term ideology, though it has a negative connotation to me. But atheism is clearly not a religion. There are no atheistic rituals, cults, prayers.
There are no First Principles, no facts and no evidence FOR there being a God as well. Now, I can decide between a blurry god image that fills the gaps of my knowledge and plays the first cause/principle/authority part in my world view and become a deist or agnostic. Or I can decide, there is no such thing. That has no influence on the everyday life, has’t it?
I admit, that the arguments against such blurry god image, that deists and agnostics have, are rather weak. But when it comes down to a specific god image, i.e. when people claim to know about certain attributes of their God, then one can easily find a bazillion of arguments against that specific image.
- Status