To be deep in the bible is to cease to be Catholic

[all4one]

edward_george:

His words and words about him are most certainly available in Scripture–OT and NT. However, this is not the only source for things we know about Jesus. The Apostles learned straight from him, and then passed the teachings on to their successors. As John says, if everything Jesus said and did were written down the whole world could not contain the books. Read the Didache for a pretty good indication of what the early Christians believed–this was written about AD 90.

You also have to remember that the Bible wasn’t around for the first 300 years of Christianity. It wasn’t until the Councils of Hippo and Carthage defined the Canon of Scripture that the Bible existed as we now know it. These are councils of the Catholic Church. If the first three centuries of Christians didn’t have a Bible, how did they have access to Jesus in the way you say we have it now? They had access to Jesus through the ministry of the Church–and even better than that, the Blessed Sacrament–but that’s a whole other thread.
Thank you, Edward George. I think they did have the gospels either orally or written down although not necessarily as a ‘bible’, I mean they had these writings that came from the apostles and read them and prayed together. People did not just get together and have Eucharist without realizing what it was all about. they knew the Good News from hearing or reading and because of that they partook of the Sacrament. The bible is not just about Jesus but is written in a way that by the Holy Spirit he can enter - if- one willingly enters into the reading with a hunger and thirst for Him. Faith can cover a lot of ground. Pax tecum…this is fun stuff, sir. Abso-rootin-tutely!!! Al-ACEGC

 

[mercygate]

all4one:

Mercygate, I’m confused. Why did you ask me if you knew it by heart? It is not my assertion at all. It is in the scripture…“So the saying spread abroad…Yet Jesus did not say…” I did not say there was a diversity of opinion I said they misunderstood. (meaning it’s possible they all missunderstood except for the beloved disciple.) Thanks for wanting to clarify, Al

I didn’t ask if you knew it by heart. I said that I know it by heart. I was asking who you thought was meant by the word “brothers.” You have answered that. It seems that John was within earshot because John says that Jesus had told him . . .“What if I want him to remain . . .” So, apparently Jesus and Peter include John in that dialogue after Peter turns and sees John following at what must have been a close but polite distance.

Anyway, I have forgotten why this came up other than it represents disparity of belief. But to my knowledge, nowithstanding medieval folk legends of Prester John – who is not John the Evangelist though often confused with him – nobody --certainly not the Church – has ever taken the idea of John’s not dying seriously.

 

[Giver]

bookgirl:

What if Jesus told me to jump off of a tall building, would you be praising God then?
:banghead:

(Genesis 22:1-8) “It happened some time later that God put Abraham to the test. Abraham, Abraham!’ he called. ‘Here I am,’ he replied. God said, ‘Take you son, your only son, your beloved Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, where you are to offer him as a burnt offering on one of the mountains which I shall point out to you.’ Early next morning Abraham saddled his donkey and took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. He chopped wood for the burnt offering and started on his journey to the place, which God had indicated to him. On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. Then Abraham said to his servants, ‘Stay here with the donkey. The boy and I are going over there’ we shall worship and then come back to you.

Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering, loaded it on Isaac, and carried in his own hands the fire and the knife. Then the two of them set out together. Isaac spoke to his father Abraham. “Father? He said, here are the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering.’ Abraham replied, ‘My son, God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering.’ And the two of them went on together.

When they arrived at the place which God had indicated to him, Abraham built an altar there, and arranged the wood. Then he bound his son and put him on the altar on top of the wood. Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to kill his son.”

 

[Giver]

edward_george:

His words and words about him are most certainly available in Scripture–OT and NT. However, this is not the only source for things we know about Jesus. The Apostles learned straight from him, and then passed the teachings on to their successors. As John says, if everything Jesus said and did were written down the whole world could not contain the books. Read the Didache for a pretty good indication of what the early Christians believed–this was written about AD 90.

You also have to remember that the Bible wasn’t around for the first 300 years of Christianity. It wasn’t until the Councils of Hippo and Carthage defined the Canon of Scripture that the Bible existed as we now know it. These are councils of the Catholic Church. If the first three centuries of Christians didn’t have a Bible, how did they have access to Jesus in the way you say we have it now? They had access to Jesus through the ministry of the Church–and even better than that, the Blessed Sacrament–but that’s a whole other thread.

Pax tecum…this is fun stuff, sir.

-ACEGC

After three-hundred years the Holy Spirit had people put together a book with the teaching that were God’s Word. So any teaching that contradicts the Word of God is wrong.
Giver

 

[Giver]

RyanL:

I find it odd that you would accuse me of “demanding proof for spiritual things”; could you please tell me how / when I did this? I would not leap to accuse someone of having a “mind of the flesh” unless I was really sure about it, because it would be false testimony were I wrong.

Now, if we can move past such ugliness I would greatly appreciate it.

Apologetics:

1. 
   *] The branch of theology that is concerned with defending or proving the truth of Christian doctrines.
   *] Formal argumentation in defense of something, such as a position or system.
   
   Note the words: PROVING and FORMAL ARGUMENTATION.
   
   This includes two-way dialog, which has not been engaged in by Giver thus far. This is why I have stopped trying with Giver - he doesn’t answer questions, and does not appear concerned with an honest and sincere seeking of the Truth. Rather, he appears concerned with proselytizing. Proselytizing is not to be confused with Apologetics. Oh, could you please remind me what is said in Matt 18:15-17?
   
   This forum has some of the most loving people I have ever met; I am surprised that you think these posts are full of hatred! Perhaps you should find a Protestant site and look at the dialogs with Catholics there - it would serve as a good basis for comparison.
   
   In closing, let me affirm that I see you as a separated brother in Christ, and would humbly welcome you as such anytime.
   
   God Bless,
   RyanL

1. 
   I am sorry I am not following the rules of “Apologetics”, until I started using this forum I never even heard of the word. My education is in business and engineering. The only reason I’m using Apologetics is because I’m restricted to it by the Forum Administration. My walk with Jesus is very close, but again I’m not allowed to share any personal revelation.
   
   Also please forgive me if I have failed to answer some of your questions. I hate to make excuses, but I am seventy-one years old and am still working for a living and helping take care of two young grand children. I don’t have a lot of time to write and I get tired.

 

[St.Eric]

Giver:

After three-hundred years the Holy Spirit had people put together a book with the teaching that were God’s Word. **So any teaching that contradicts the Word of God is wrong.**Giver

Teachings like: sola scriptura, sola fida, personal/private interpretatioin of the bible, regeneration without water baptism, abstaining from the eucharist, not using sacred Traditioin, etc., etc.- yes, I would agree, these teachings contradict the word of God and are wrong.

 

[bookgirl]

all4one:

Just an observation;
Doesn’t look like you’re going the extra mile to me bookgirl.
I would think someone to whom *Jesus spoke to *about the CCC would be overflowing with His spirit. On the contrary Giver has stayed the course in a pretty hostile environment and has remained unscathed. Al

Actually, I was just going out of town for the weekend without any internet access, thanks for your great judgement though.

 

[bookgirl]

all4one:

He has answered every question in the most honest way he can only the mind of the flesh is demanding proof for spiritual things.
Reminds me of the gospel where the religious Jews just couldn’t grasp what and who Jesus was even though he spoke in the synogogues and streets for years. I think JN 5:25-47 is especially to the point. Al

No he hasn’t answered questions. I keep asking him to tell me how he knows his truth is the truth. He’s just not answering the question. Maybe you have an opinion on it? Jesus told him one thing and me another, and they’re conflicting. There’s only one truth, and one Church, and Jesus PROMISED He would never leave it, where’s the truth, and how do you know?

 

[bookgirl]

all4one:

For that matter how do you know anything? How could Jesus expect anyone to hear Him? If Jesus were alive today and he was preaching to you how would you know if it was true or false? Could it be that Jesus told him the CCC was wrong for him and maybe it’s not wrong for you. Maybe he doesn’t need to refer to a manual to be in relationship. Maybe I do. “If it is my will that he remain till I come what is that to you? Follow me!” “To them *who received *Him He gave the power to become sons of God…” “To him who has more will be given, to him who has not even the little he has will be taken away.”
How do you know your spouse loves you? Does it invalidate that relationship if I doubt the truth of it? I think not.
Love is not afraid to be wrong. The flesh is very afraid to be wrong. Love is too busy loving to be worried about the payback.
What I’m talking about is living in a different gear than the one we were born with. Al

You seem to be so worried about “the flesh”, I’m starting to hear very very slight hints of a certain heresy here. Jesus made our bodies too, Jesus took on a body like ours, Jesus is STILL IN His glorified version of that FLESHLY body. You should try reading a little of PJPII’s Theology of the Body (or Christopher West’s intro to it).

 

[bookgirl]

edward_george:

It’s like nailing Jello to a wall…

Oh yeah, in response to this:

First off, he has totally ignored my question, which is “Why do you use the Bible as a middle man, rather than going straight to Jesus.” This and similar questions have just bounced off. Second, I’m insulted by the insinuation that we’re like the “religious Jews” who couldn’t grasp who Jesus was. Can you read the states of our souls? Do you know what’s in our hearts?

-ACEGC

 

[bookgirl]

(Genesis 22:1-8) “It happened some time later that God put Abraham to the test. Abraham, Abraham!’ he called. ‘Here I am,’ he replied. God said, ‘Take you son, your only son, your beloved Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, where you are to offer him as a burnt offering on one of the mountains which I shall point out to you.’ Early next morning Abraham saddled his donkey and took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. He chopped wood for the burnt offering and started on his journey to the place, which God had indicated to him. On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. Then Abraham said to his servants, ‘Stay here with the donkey. The boy and I are going over there’ we shall worship and then come back to you.

Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering, loaded it on Isaac, and carried in his own hands the fire and the knife. Then the two of them set out together. Isaac spoke to his father Abraham. “Father? He said, here are the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering.’ Abraham replied, ‘My son, God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering.’ And the two of them went on together.

When they arrived at the place which God had indicated to him, Abraham built an altar there, and arranged the wood. Then he bound his son and put him on the altar on top of the wood. Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to kill his son.”

This is SUCH a perfect example of what a human can make the Bible mean on their own, without any sort of authority. These words were revealed to you through the writers, but they are not yours to do with as you please.

 

[Church_Militant]

all4one:

And I thought this was an apologetics

forum! Let’s be very honest with ourselves. All you who now have hatred burning through you raise your hands. …Wow! that’s nearly all of you!
This is the same hatred that crucified the one you claim to know so thoroughly.
Publically call me swine but that won’t vindicate you in the Presence of the Truth. Only loving will.
Peace to you. AlWhere do you get this stuff from? You make judgements of members on here and I’ve kept careful track of this thread and the only one I see laying down anything less than charitable remarks of late is you.

You who specifies yourself as Catholic, but then turns around and asserts that Jesus had brothers…in glaring contradiction of both the New Testament and church teaching.

You, who quotes from the NIV Bible which is a n-C translation and lacks all the books it should have, when the NAB reads almost the same and is a Catholic translation and is readily available all over the place.

You, who judge a sister on here who simply says, “See you next week.” but probably never considered that she might only have comp access during the week, and so won’t be back on again until then. (Guess I was wrong about that part huh? )

No one has called you swine…the reference was to a valid passage from the New Testament and applies to reaching the point where the message of Christ is rejected. It happens all the time and when it does the only decent thing to do is to walk away and remember the people in your prayers.

Yes, this is most definitely an apologetics forum, and not a platform for the evangelism of Catholics by n-Cs/a-Cs or the promulgation of unapproved private revelations. Especially when they espouse drastic departures from both the Word of God and faithful Catholic teaching.

I have seen no hatred here so far, but I have seen many people offer good Catholic apologetical answers with passion and charity and be castigated by you for it.

Don’t try to paint these good people as if they are unloving, because I’ve been on the a-C “apologetics” forums and born the brunt of their version of “loving” me, and what I see here at CAF even on its worst days, is a glorious ray of sunshine compared to that.

Good, honest, charitable, and correct answers have been offered here. If anyone chooses to ignore them, then if these patient souls get frustrated and cease to offer further dialogue, then who can blame them for taking the scriptural way out and dusting off their sandals?

Pax tecum,

 

[Church_Militant]

Giver:

I am sorry I am not following the rules of “Apologetics”, until I started using this forum I never even heard of the word. My education is in business and engineering. The only reason I’m using Apologetics is because I’m restricted to it by the Forum Administration. My walk with Jesus is very close, but again I’m not allowed to share any personal revelation.

Also please forgive me if I have failed to answer some of your questions. I hate to make excuses, but I am seventy-one years old and am still working for a living and helping take care of two young grand children. I don’t have a lot of time to write and I get tired.

Take it easy Robert. We still love ya! You may be restricted from discussing your own private revelations because they are unapproved by the church, but we can still discuss your insights on different scriptures, and though we may not agree, I’m sure we all can benefit from the discussions, ok?

BTW, do you by chance still go to Mass at this point? You may have said before, and if so I am sorry for missing it, but I was wondering. If as you say, Jesus told you that the Catholic Church is His church, then I wonder if He also gave you some personal dispensation from obeying Hebrews 10:25 (We should not stay away from our assembly, as is the custom of some, but encourage one another, and this all the more as you see the day drawing near. )?
God bless you buddy!

 

[all4one]

bookgirl:

You seem to be so worried about “the flesh”,
Actually, it’s not a matter of being worried as much as it’s being able to recognize there is a difference in the flesh (earthly thinking-ego-fallen Adam) and the Spirit. I’m starting to hear very very slight hints of a certain heresy here. Which heresy are you very,very slightly hinting at? Jesus made our bodies too, Jesus took on a body like ours, Jesus is STILL IN His glorified version of that FLESHLY body. This is not what is meant by the term ‘flesh’ in scripture. I hope you’re not going to ask me to give you all the scripture that says the flesh is contrary to the Spirit and things like that. I would guess there are references to it on every page of Paul’s letters. You should try reading a little of PJPII’s Theology of the Body (or Christopher West’s intro to it). I haven’t read it but I can tell you it has nothing to do with the meaning of ‘flesh’ as I meant it and as it is used in scripture.
The body is not what I mean. By flesh I mean the self-centered, the personality that is under the law of condemnation.

 

[all4one]

Church Militant:

Where do you get this stuff from? You make judgements of members on here and I’ve kept careful track of this thread and the only one I see laying down anything less than charitable remarks of late is you.
Hello, Militant, I am not judging- I said it is like the Jews who couldn’t hear the gist of Jesus’ words. Those people were not bad people , they were only hearing with the natural kind of mind, just as it appeared (and still appears) to me that a lot of us on this forum are hearing. I never meant that the posts were hateful, (as I already explained if you were reading). I meant that hatred would arise in leiu of what I just said, (and apparently I have stepped into a hornets nest telling Catholic apologetics they are hearing with the mind of the flesh.) I find it ironic that such a central idea (mind of the flesh) is not understood on such a forum as this. To be offended by this is testimony that you think those Jews were bad. They are us. Those passages of scripture are there to be a mirror for us. Is your apologetic pride offended at such an analogy? I am constantly fighting my narrow ‘fleshly’ kind of thinking. I do not come to this forum to pamper your apologetic ego. I am here to find out what is really true about the faith. I am all too often hearing with the mind of the flesh.You who specifies yourself as Catholic, but then turns around and asserts that Jesus had brothers…in glaring contradiction of both the New Testament and church teaching. I am not pretending to be any pius guy. I’m telling you straight out I’m here because I am having problems with some things. I NEVER said that Jesus had brothers I only was quoting a NIV verse for a COMPLETELY different point. I was quoting to show the brethren or disciples or brothers -depending on translation, were misunderstanding something and ‘spreading it abroad’.
You, who quotes from the NIV Bible which is a n-C translation and lacks all the books it should have, when the NAB reads almost the same and is a Catholic translation and is readily available all over the place. I only quoted it because it was the first bible page that came up on my computer and I wanted to get the post in quickly. I had no idea that you would get so offended by that. I’m sorry for using the NIV. Personally I hate it but it was in haste.You, who judge a sister on here who simply says, “See you next week.” but probably never considered that she might only have comp access during the week, and so won’t be back on again until then. (Guess I was wrong about that part huh? ) I am sorry if I misunderstood, but I did see some eye rolling after her statement that really gave it a sarcastic color. I guess you don’t see it that way.
No one has called you swine…the reference was to a valid passage from the New Testament and applies to reaching the point where the message of Christ is rejected. COLOR=DarkRed] I should not be taking the word swine to heart but you can take COLOR=DarkGreen]Jews to heart.- that too is a valid reference./]COLOR] It happens all the time and when it does the only decent thing to do is to walk away and remember the people in your prayers. COLOR=DarkGreen][in scripture to do but [/COLOR]]Yes, this is most definitely an apologetics forum, and not a platform for the evangelism of Catholics by n-Cs/a-Cs or the promulgation of unapproved private revelations.
I have seen no hatred here so far, but I have seen many people offer good Catholic apologetical answers with passion and charity and be castigated by you for it.

Don’t try to paint these good people as if they are unloving, because I’ve been on the a-C “apologetics” forums and born the brunt of their version of “loving” me, and what I see here at CAF even on its worst days, is a glorious ray of sunshine compared to that.

Good, honest, charitable, and correct answers have been offered here. If anyone chooses to ignore them, then if these patient souls get frustrated and cease to offer further dialogue, then who can blame them for taking the scriptural way out and dusting off their sandals? Again, I don’t blame them for charitably bowing out but publically stating to not give pearls to swine is less than charitable ( Christ told the disciples this NOT in front of those whom he meant and He never told them to say this to them.)/COLOR]Pax tecum,

 

[David_Zampino]

all4one:
I haven’t read it but I can tell you it has nothing to do with the meaning of ‘flesh’ as I meant it and as it is used in scripture.

You have not read it, but you can tell us what it means?

Don’t you see a problem with this?

It says to me that you really don’t have any idea of what you are talking about.

Blessings,

 

[bookgirl]

You have not read it, but you can tell us what it means?

Don’t you see a problem with this?

It says to me that you really don’t have any idea of what you are talking about.

Blessings,

Thank you

 

[all4one]

You have not read it, but you can tell us what it means?

Don’t you see a problem with this?

It says to me that you really don’t have any idea of what you are talking about.

Blessings,

I do see that that is a ridiculous statement. I mean that the way I’m using the word ‘flesh’ has little to do with the body. If JPll’s book is about the mind of the flesh then I would be very surprised but, I do not know for sure what the book is about.
If that sloppy statement of mine tells you I don’t have any idea what I’m talking about than I’ll make sure I mind my p’s and q’s around here. Thanks for the pointer.

 

[Church_Militant]

all4one…somehow you just missed the whole point of everything I said. And you apparently are not accustomed to the debate aspects of apologetics.

For that matter how do you know anything? How could Jesus expect anyone to hear Him? If Jesus were alive today and he was preaching to you how would you know if it was true or false? Could it be that Jesus told him the CCC was wrong for him and maybe it’s not wrong for you. Maybe he doesn’t need to refer to a manual to be in relationship. Maybe I do.

“If it is my will that he remain till I come what is that to you? Follow me!” “To them who received Him He gave the power to become sons of God…” “To him who has more will be given, to him who has not even the little he has will be taken away.”
How do you know your spouse loves you? Does it invalidate that relationship if I doubt the truth of it? I think not.
Love is not afraid to be wrong. The flesh is very afraid to be wrong. Love is too busy loving to be worried about the payback.
What I’m talking about is living in a different gear than the one we were born with. AlPoint one: Since when does Christ hand out mixed messages? Is the Holy Spirit ever the author of confusion? (See 1st Cor. 11-14 for that answer).

Just because someone comes along and tells us that the Holy Spirit told them something does not make it so. How do we discern what is true and what is errant? It is measured against the Word of God, the verifiable teachings of the early church, and the teaching authority of the Catholic Church as the church that Christ Himself founded. That’s pretty simple. If you see the CCC as “a manual” then perhaps you need to get a copy and actually sit down and read and study it with your Bible in hand and maybe your opinion will change.

Point two: Does truth change? If there is such a thing as absolute truth, (and I believe that there is!) then the pursuit of that truth brings us ever closer to Christ Himself because He said “I am…the truth…” If one loves someone one wants to get to know everything about that person. In that respect, that truth is all important to knowing that person and in so doing, loving them all the more.

Jesus gave us a church to know Him through.

 

[bookgirl]

all4one:

I do see that that is a ridiculous statement. I mean that the way I’m using the word ‘flesh’ has little to do with the body. If JPll’s book is about the mind of the flesh then I would be very surprised but, I do not know for sure what the book is about.
If that sloppy statement of mine tells you I don’t have any idea what I’m talking about than I’ll make sure I mind my p’s and q’s around here. Thanks for the pointer.

A41,

You’re right, I admit I am taking you a little out of context. But your argumentative style used around the word “flesh” is banking a little on the “flesh is bad spirit is good” point of view, even if that’s not the point you’re going for. But then again, I don’t really understand what you’re going for. If you’re talking about “flesh” as in needing material proof (you mentioned that in another post), as in not having faith (Thomas-ish), I still think that’s way off what any of us are saying anyway. If you’re saying we need something concrete here on earth to guide us, and in that we’re wrong, then you’re going against scripture. Jesus established a Church, as a pillar and foundation of truth. Pillar and foundation are pretty concrete words, (as well as the “rock” he built it on). Pretty concrete words for a here-on-this-earth – if not OF this earth – Church that He established.