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littlesheep
Guest
I did not know that Eusebius was a protestant. Learning somethinfg new every day in these forams
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littlesheep
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littlesheep
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mercygate
Guest
If you read the conciliar statement carefully, fully weighing the Scriptures cited (especially the full context of the quotation from Romans 1 about exchanging truth for a lie and how even barbarians have no excuse for failing to discern moral truths which are written on the very face of creation), you will see that there is no contradiction between the scriptural statements that God desires that all men be saved and that salvation is only through Jesus.
Remember Cornelius.
For further clarification, I suggest adding Dominus Iesus to your reading list as well.
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littlesheep
Guest
weighing the Scriptures cited (especially the full context of the quotation from Romans 1 about exchanging truth for a lie and how even barbarians have no excuse for failing to discern moral truths which are written on the very face of creation), you will see that there is no contradiction between the scriptural statements that God desires that all men be saved and that salvation is only through Jesus.
Remember Cornelius .What? My mouth just dropped open. Let me re-quote and I will highlight what is wrong with the quote. Do not accuse me of saying something I did not.
those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. etc…
- There is no god except the Triune God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Arabic Christians may use the word ALLIHA as their word for our Lord and Savior, our God, but Islam surly does not.
- I concede God will have Mercy on who He wants to have Mercy .If He wants to save a heathen He will figure out a way to have that person find Christ. In fact He has done that even before creation. But there is no salvation outside of Christ. None.
3 Rom 2:12-15 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
If you take from these passages that every Do-gooder is going to be saved, then you had better read Scripture in context Salvation is BY faith in Jesus Christ, nothing or noone else
Rom 9:30-32 *What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, *
I am not quite up on my Saints.
Who is he. Is he the centurian at the foot of the cross? AT THE FOOT OF THE CROSS
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ByzantineCatho
Guest
The Eastern Catholic Churches are united with the Roman Catholic Church, so your assertion is illogical!
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Giver
Guest
(Matthew 11:11) “I tell you solemnly, of all the children born of women, a greater than John the Baptist has never been seen; yet the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he is.”
You notice Jesus didn’t say Mary His mother.
Giver
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Giver
Guest
(Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”
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mercygate
Guest
No, Cornelius is not the centurion at the foot of the cross. Siince you profer your thoughts on a thread entitled “deep in the Bible,” we could expect you to at least to understand a simple reference to it, couldn’t we?
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NonDenom
Guest
Hi Maria
I posted this on another thread.
Hi
I can give one big contradiction between the Bible and the CCC,
If you are a Christian you must agree that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. According to the CCC this is not true.
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
First of all we know that the scriptures say that Jesus is the only way to salvation (John 14:6). Mark 16:16, John 3:16, 18, 36, and many more scriptures say that if we believe in him we will be saved, if we don’t believe in him we will be condemed. The Muslim religon does NOT believe the Jesus is who he says he is. They don’t believe he is the Son of God. I don’t know how you could come up with any other conclusion.
In Him and Only Him.
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scylla
Guest
Hello Nondenom,
Why do you persist to misrepresent Catholic belief?
We already clarified this in the other thread and showed how you were bearing false witness. I understood that maybe you were sincerely mistaken before but unless you missed our posts I stress you really shouldn’t do this. Please be honest and prayerfully look back at that thread.
This is a Christian board and it should be about truth not winning.
So again I point you to the beginning of the Catechism which specifically states that there is only one name by which we are saved that is by Jesus.
scborromeo.org/ccc/prologue.htm
The part you quoted says that Muslims like Jews acknowledge the creator and if it His will they be saved by Jesus then by His will some of them have the possiblility of being saved. We do not limit God, He does what He wants, and this does not deny Jesus who died for all men.
Please do not misrepresent Catholic belief just to try and discredit it, it is dishonest and wrong.
If you missed our posts replying to yours then don’t take offense and I invite you to read them.
God Bless
Scylla
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MrS
Guest
Giver said:
Excellant Quote…
I am glad you see and share that it is God’s WIll. Not just the items we agree with, or the doctrines we understand, or the personal needs we want fulfilled (fellowship, community et al).
And since Jesus and His Father are One (His words, not mine), we must accept all that the Son Has taught… that would mean ALL… including picking up your own cross, suffering with Him, believing on faith with the grace that comes from Him… reading His Word (scripture) in the light of the teaching authority He left with us…
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javelin
Guest
Did He really?
Giver said:
Doesn’t sound, from your own quote, like He said we are all “not one above the other”.
Peace,
javelin
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littlesheep
Guest
Dominus Iesus. Read it, please explain it.
My thoughts are well lets just say I don’ know Are you saying that this document is correcting a misunderstanding or what.
Your going to have to school me as to what kind of documents that the Popes put out that are infallible.
Has Any of the councils after the Council of Trent ever corrected a bad doctrine of the church that was declared by any previous council? And if so which ones please, and if not, why not?
In other words Is one infallible Pope trying to correct another infallible Pope with out saying the firs infallible Pope was wrong?
Please point me to the thread you previously discussed the point under discussion with me
My thoughts are well lets just say I don’ know Are you saying that this document is correcting a misunderstanding or what.
Your going to have to school me as to what kind of documents that the Popes put out that are infallible.
Has Any of the councils after the Council of Trent ever corrected a bad doctrine of the church that was declared by any previous council? And if so which ones please, and if not, why not?
In other words Is one infallible Pope trying to correct another infallible Pope with out saying the firs infallible Pope was wrong?
Please point me to the thread you previously discussed the point under discussion with me
Are we reading the same document? Is there a revision NonDenom an I don’t know about?
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littlesheep
Guest
Dominus Iesus. Read it, please explain it.
My thoughts are well lets just say I don’ know Are you saying that this document is correcting a misunderstanding or what.
Your going to have to school me as to what kind of documents that the Popes put out that are infallible.
Has Any of the councils after the Council of Trent ever corrected a bad doctrine of the church that was declared by any previous council? And if so which ones please, and if not, why not?
In other words Is one infallible Pope trying to correct another infallible Pope with out saying the first infallible Pope was wrong?
Please point me to the thread you previously discussed the point under discussion with me and NonDenom
My thoughts are well lets just say I don’ know Are you saying that this document is correcting a misunderstanding or what.
Your going to have to school me as to what kind of documents that the Popes put out that are infallible.
Has Any of the councils after the Council of Trent ever corrected a bad doctrine of the church that was declared by any previous council? And if so which ones please, and if not, why not?
In other words Is one infallible Pope trying to correct another infallible Pope with out saying the first infallible Pope was wrong?
Please point me to the thread you previously discussed the point under discussion with me and NonDenom
Are we reading the same document? Is there a revision NonDenom an I don’t know about? Because that is what I’m trying to figure out. How do you reconcile The Vatican II statements with the beginning of the Catechism.
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all4one
Guest
I think the spirit of the statement alone is very telling. It comes off to me as very self-satisfied or comfy-in-my-club. A statement such as this is of a spirit that is not likely to admit it is mistaken. It is very nice to feel that all the questions are neatly packed in clearly labeled boxes to put on our spiritual shelves. To be so sure that your church is not in opposition to the bible is a sure sign that:
a) you have not read it. b) you are not sincere with yourself. c) you are afraid to be wrong. d) you believe being 100% correct is what it’s all about.
Jesus told us to ask, seek and knock because Real Life does not fit in nice little articles you can call the CCC. Truth is living.
Having said all that I will say that praying for the dead is addressed in MK 12:26-27 (The dead are all who’s hearts are not turned to God and the Living are incapable of dying.) It’s a new definition of ‘dead’.
Having to get holiness from sacrementals or Mary’s intercession is contrary to COL 2:6-9, 16-23. What more do you need if you are in God??? But if you don’t really have assurance in Christ than maybe you would wear a scapular or plead to the mother of God. There is a tremendous comfort in being Catholic because everything is ready-made. All the answers are right here and we’ve got the keys and the pope’s in the driver’s seat. The scriptures are demanding a much more personal effort and inquiry into a possibility of New Life. You can’t put New Wine into old wineskins. Thanks, Al
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Giver
Guest
(1 Corinthians 3:16-17) “Didn’t you realize that you were God’s temple and that the Spirit of God was living among you? If anybody should destroy the temple of God, God will destroy him, because the temple of God is sacred, and you are that temple.”
Jesus is with me at all times not only when I receive His body and blood. The Eucharist is Spiritual food and it keeps my spirit strong, but Jesus (Holy Spirit) living me gives me direction and guidance.
Jesus is with me at all times not only when I receive His body and blood. The Eucharist is Spiritual food and it keeps my spirit strong, but Jesus (Holy Spirit) living me gives me direction and guidance.
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NonDenom
Guest
Hi Scylla
I’m sorry if I offend you because that is not my purpose. I am simply pointing out where the CCC not onlyconflicts with scripture, but conflicts with itself. Here are the two points in the CCC we are talking about.
First, "FATHER, . . . this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."1 "God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."2 "There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved"3 - than the name of JESUS.
Second, 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
It is now up to you to be honest with yourself, you can’t read these two statements from the CCC and come up with any other conclusion than they contradict each other. I’m not misrepresenting anything, just pointing some things out.
In Him and Only Him.
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MrS
Guest
Giver said:
John 6 says four times that the Eucharist is REAL FOOD. And the Amen, Amen, and the Truly, Truly that come from the Lord’s mouth make this a hard saying… many walked away.
Paul’s admonition in Corinthians restates what he learned from the Lord… It is the Body and Blood of Christ.
Show us scriptural evidence (I won’t ask for the 2000 years of teaching handed on direct from the Apostles) that Jesus taught that “is” did not mean “is”.
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all4one
Guest
Are you saying that spiritual is not real? Spiritual is the ground of real. Are you saying that eating the corporal body of Jesus is more ‘real’ than eating the spirit of Jesus? What you physically eat is gone in ten minutes. What you spiritually eat is there as long as your attention (will) is on it. ‘Your treasure is where your heart is’ not where your senses are. ‘Keep your mind on things ABOVE…’ ‘I stand at the door and knock…’ this in not a physical door- it is an image to induct us into the spirit. ‘The flesh is of no avail, my words are spirit…’
The spiritual is indeed very real otherwise why bother with Christianity at all? It’s something to think about.
Al
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David_Zampino
Guest
With respect, I think that your statement is the epitome of exactly what you are attempting to decry.
I am a convert to the Catholic faith, after serving as an ordained minister in another Christian body. Just for the record:
a) I have read the Bible. In virtually every major English translation. I have also studied Hebrew and Greek as well as English translations of the Aramaic.
b) I am sincere with myself. Which is why I had the integrity to walk away from my former denomination at great personal cost to myself and my family. (I’m not trying to “toot my own horn” here – many on this board could relate similar experiences.) Judging someone else’s level of sincerity is a dangerous thing to do.
c) I am certainly not afraid to be wrong. The older I get, the more I realize how wrong I am about so many things!
It was becoming convinced that I was wrong that led me to the Church.d) Friend, none of us is gonna be 100% correct this side of eternity!
It is clear from your posts, and those of your friends, that you really don’t know:
a) What the Catholic Church actually teaches,
b) Basic Church History,
c) The Scriptures.
If you wish to “proof-text” the Bible or the Catechism, it is certainly your right to do so. Remember, though, there are Catholics on this forum who know the Bible far better than many Protestants, and who DO know their faith – many of them converts themselves.
Blessings,
G
Giver
Guest
I am sorry to make myself clear let me say: I believe the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood of Jesus. Jesus said it was spiritual and He said it was real food. My point was that we didn’t need the Eucharist to have Jesus with us, because we are the temples of Christ.
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