To be deep in the bible is to cease to be Catholic

[Melchior]

mercygate:

You seem to have wandered away from my original point: I was referring to ex-Catholics. I stand by my observation, which has been corroborated many times.

That’s why I said “I cannot argue with your experience”.

Most Evangelicals in my neck of the woods are ex-Catholics - including me. So I can only go by my own experience. Suffice to say I believe you. But I think both of our anecdotal evidences may be geographically related. I am in MA where Evangelicals are not a dime a dozen which tends to make a hardier christian. Perhaps it is the reverse where you are. Either way I was not arguing against your experience - I was just offering my own.

Mel

 

[cheddarsox]

MariaG:

What exactly in the Bible contradicts Catholic teachings?

Post here or post in a new thread, but I really would love to explore even one part of the the Bible that would lead someone out of the Catholic Church.

I will say it again, if there is even one doctrine of the Catholic Church that contradicts the Bible, I will leave it immediately.

God Bless,
Maria

I have no interest in presenting something with the intent of leading anyone out of their faith.

If the Bible increases your faith and security within the Catholic Church, I am happy for you.

Leaving one’s faith is a gut wrenching painful experience, and not mine to invite into another person’s life.

Faith is a gift from the divine!

cheddar

 

[riverman]

MariaG:

Show me one doctrine of the Catholic Church that contradicts the Bible and I will leave it immediately.

God Bless,
Maria

Well Maria, I guess we will have you in our Church for ever!

 

[riverman]

allischalmers:

Roman 3:23 For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Does that not include Mary the mother of Jesus.

How about Genisis 3:15? God says he will “put enmity between you and the woman, and between her offspring and hers” He is talking to the serpent. Why does he say “the woman?” Because, he is refering to Mary. “between your offspring and **HERS” **he doesn’t say your offspring and thiers (man and wife), he says hers, because her offspring was not consieved by man but by the Holy Spirit. This is obviously talking about Mary the “mother of my Lord” Lk1:43. Since there is enmity between her and satan, she could not have sinned. By sinning she would have been on Satans side and there would have been no enmity, but by remaining sinless there is great enmity between them. the Lord created Eve without sin, why not his own mother? Since the Bible does not err, This passage in Gn shows that Mary must have been without sin to have enmity between her and Satan. There is a great CD you can get at www.biblechristiansociety.com that explains this in great detail. Hope this helps explain it a bit. Like I said, the CD will help explain it in various ways using scripture alone. All the CD’s from John are great in providing biblical truth to the Catholic faith.

 

[mercygate]

cheddarsox:

It didn’t, it just led me out of the Catholic church. Pantheism came later.

cheddar

Sounds more like disillusionment with the Bible led you out of Christianity than out of the Catholic Church qua Catholic Church.

 

[Giver]

cestusdei:

I was once a Protestant minister. I got very deep into scripture. Now I am a Catholic priest. Makes sense since the Church gave us the Bible.

I wonder how do you justify the contradiction between the Catholics Church teachings and the following Scriptures.

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. **Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. ** My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”
(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” No Church that I know of teaches that Christians are dead to sin.

Usury: (Ezekiel 18:13) “_____ charges usury on loans and takes interest, then this son shall certainly not live; having committed all these appalling crimes he will have to die, and his blood be on his own head.” And Jesus raises Usury to a higher level (Luke 6:35) “Instead, love your enemies and do good, and lend without any hope of return. You will have a great reward, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.” God doesn’t use excessive when He talks about interest.

The Church says excessive interest; the Bible doesn’t qualify Usury this way. Think about it, excessive leaves it open to almost any amount. It all becomes relative.

Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

(Matthew 5:38-39) “You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well;” The Church accepts a “Just war”

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.” Not one of the Church teachings.

Of course you know the one about call no man father, teacher, etc.

 

[mercygate]

Giver:

I wonder how do you justify the contradiction between the Catholics Church teachings and the following Scriptures.

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.

Catholics attempt to “purify themselves” all the time, examining their consciences and coming to the throne of Christ in Confession.

This text, however, does not address a “Catholic” doctrine. Post baptismal or sin after “being saved” is a challenge for all Christians of whatever denomination. I have never known any Protestant of any tradition who claimed to be sinless or that it was possible to live a completely sinless life, even after being “saved.” Perhaps my experience is defective.

 

[CindyGia]

“To be steaped in history is to cease to be a protestant” -John Henry Newman ( Anglican convert to Catholicism).
This is an interesting thread cause the reason I am Catholic is because of the bible. The Bible Teaches, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the authority of the Pope, the ability of the priest to absolve sins in the name of Christ, the necessity of baptism for salvation and that a Christian is born again in baptism, the need for good works, the idea or purgatory, necessity of honoring the Blessed Virgin, the intercessory prayers of the saints, the idea of sanctifying grace, the need for both scripture and tradition. To read the bible and to believe its words it to become Catholic.

BRAVO! It couldn’t have been said more eloquently or beautiful!

Your statement couldn’t have explained it any better. And those who refuse to realize this are deceived by satan.

 

[mercygate]

Giver:

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.” Not one of the Church teachings.

Again, name any Protestant denomination that practices absolute poverty. This is not a “Catholic” issue.

Clearly, in the Gospels there are disciples and disciples: the 12, the 72, and the multitudes are called to different charisms of discipleship. In the Catholic Church millions of men and women have given up all claim to personal possessions by their vows of Evangelical Poverty in religious life.

Christians (not just Catholics) who do not “give up all their possessions” in the sense of selling everything and giving to the poor attempt to “give up all their possessions” in the sense that they give up all of their lives, including their possessions, to the will and service of God.

 

[puzzleannie]

MariaG:

I just wanted to help out a faily new member who may be hesitant to start a new thread.

The allegation is that once one gets deep into Scripture one would cease to be Catholic.

So go at it. What Scritpture?

God Bless,
Maria

I would urge that family member to get more deeply into scripture, but to pray to the holy spirit for enlightenment, use a translation of the bible that is complete and accurate, and canonized by the early Church, and whose footnotes do not contain a hidden agenda attacking the Catholic Church doctrines.

I would further urge him to use bible reference materials and studies compiled only by those whose teaching authority has been handed down by the apostles, who were chosen by Jesus Christ himself, to compile the New Testament, and preserve the Old Testament and interpret it within the living tradition of the Church.

Since the Catholic Church wrote the New Testament and preserved the Old Testament as a foreshadowing of the New, anyone who delves into scripture will be led directly to Jesus Christ and to the Church he founded.

most Christians who belong to and practice the teachings of “Bible-based” churches lead morally upright lives and could be good examples to some lax Catholics. Where Catholics who leave the Church for a “Bible-based” denomination go wrong is in following teachers who dispense, disregard, or misinterpret entire chunks or books of the Bible, and use the rest to reinforce an agenda that directly attacks doctrines essential to Catholicism such as the sacrificial priesthood and the Eucharist.

The question is one of authority, and as the New Testament writers warned, it is easy to be mislead by teachers who stray from the Tradition handed down by the apostles and who teach without authority.

 

[mercygate]

Giver:

Usury: (Ezekiel 18:13) “_____ charges usury on loans and takes interest, then this son shall certainly not live; having committed all these appalling crimes he will have to die, and his blood be on his own head.” And Jesus raises Usury to a higher level (Luke 6:35) “Instead, love your enemies and do good, and lend without any hope of return. You will have a great reward, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.” God doesn’t use excessive when He talks about interest.

I see here no directive concerning “usury” but rather a directive toward generosity.

The Church says excessive interest; the Bible doesn’t qualify Usury this way. Think about it, excessive leaves it open to almost any amount. It all becomes relative. You are saying that all interest is prohibited, if I am not mistaken. Yet, our Lord praises charging (or at least collecting!) interest in Matt 25:27 (and Luke 19:23: “You ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest”.

I am not an experienced apologist in this area but here is a pretty good tract on the subject, which includes a discussion of what usury *is *and what it is not.

 

[Giver]

mercygate:

Catholics attempt to “purify themselves” all the time, examining their consciences and coming to the throne of Christ in Confession.

This text, however, does not address a “Catholic” doctrine. Post baptismal or sin after “being saved” is a challenge for all Christians of whatever denomination. I have never known any Protestant of any tradition who claimed to be sinless or that it was possible to live a completely sinless life, even after being “saved.” Perhaps my experience is defective.

It not only possible but expected, by God, to live sinless lives.

Galatians 5:16
“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence…”. Not all sin leads to death but the following sins sure do. Notice usurers, catamites, sodomites, etc.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”

 

[Giver]

mercygate:

I see here no directive concerning “usury” but rather a directive toward generosity.

The Church says excessive interest; the Bible doesn’t qualify Usury this way. Think about it, excessive leaves it open to almost any amount. It all becomes relative.

You are saying that all interest is prohibited, if I am not mistaken. Yet, our Lord praises charging (or at least collecting!) interest in Matt 25:27 (and Luke 19:23: “You ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest”.
Galatians 5:16
“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence…”. Not all sin leads to death but the following sins sure do. Notice usurers, catamites, sodomites, etc.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”

Yes all interest is evil, and you quoted a parable and you should read why and to whom Jesus spoke parables to.

I am not an experienced apologist in this area but here is a pretty good tract on the subject, which includes a discussion of what usury *is *and what it is not.

 

[mercygate]

Giver:

It not only possible but expected, by God, to live sinless lives.

Galatians 5:16
“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence…”. Not all sin leads to death but the following sins sure do. Notice usurers, catamites, sodomites, etc.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”

Agreed, we are expected to do so – but if all Christians are expected to be sinless forever, and without ever stumbling, why does John in his first epistle (5:16) feel compelled to counsel prayer for those who have sinned?

As for I Cor 6, show me anywhere in Catholic teaching where it says that un-repentant idolaters, adulterers, etc. will inherit the Kingdom.

 

[Giver]

mercygate:

Agreed, we are expected to do so – but if all Christians are expected to be sinless forever, and without ever stumbling, why does John in his first epistle (5:16) feel compelled to counsel prayer for those who have sinned?

As for I Cor 6, show me anywhere in Catholic teaching where it says that un-repentant idolaters, adulterers, etc. will inherit the Kingdom.

Because not all Christians had or have been brought into the light and tasted ------etc.

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”
Giver

 

[mercygate]

Giver:

Because not all Christians had or have been brought into the light and tasted ------etc.

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”
Giver

Huh? Parapesontas? Is that your bid here?

 

[MariaG]

This thread is kind of messy. Yes I knew it would happen. When I had time yesterday, I posted two threads that had the most discussion going to try to direct discussion there as well as I and others have discussed some things here.

I am kind of lost now. Any issues that have not been addressed or more discussion is wanted? I know I must of missed or forgotten at least one person

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Axion]

Melchior:

I think your last paragraph is absurd. No offense. Most people who end up in Bible Churches (right or wrong) tend to be morally outstanding Christians. I have never met someone who has had a “born-again” experience become a moral liberal. I have only seen the opposite. If you said “mainline protestant” instead of “Bible Church” then I would agree with you. But 90% of those who go to Bible Churches do so for deeply theological reasons not because they want to live immorally. You are confusing liberal protestants with Evangelicals. One group is immoral the other has adherents who would more than likely put the average catholic to shame lifestyle wise.

Mel

Sorry to offer disillusion. But in my limited experience, I have seen exactly this from “bible christians” (even leaving aside the publicised cases of certain TV evangelists).

I have seen several “born-again” Christians who were proclaiming Jesus, strict bible morality and speaking in tongues etc daily, turn and tear each other to pieces. Some fell away entirely and never attend a church several years later, two fell into homosexuality, another ran off with another woman and divorced his wife.

Yet another went off and joined a strange reclusive cult. Another is now a virtual atheist, ridiculing Christianity. Some of the loudest in proclaiming how “saved” they were, and how sure their mansions were in heaven, were the worst in this.

 

[NonDenom]

I just wanted to help out a faily new member who may be hesitant to start a new thread.

The allegation is that once one gets deep into Scripture one would cease to be Catholic.

So go at it. What Scritpture?

God Bless,
Maria

Hi
It is my opinion that the reason you hear it, is most former Catholics will tell you that it was because of their getting into the scriptures that they converted. There are five people in our church that were former Catholics and we are a small congregation. My wife went to Catholic school and to Catholic church for 27 years, and it wasn’t until I got her into some Bible studies that discovered the truth. You may not want to admit it, but most Catholic’s that leave the church will tell you that it was there study of the scriptures that caused them to leave the Catholic church. I think that a lot of the reason why is because of the oral tradition’s that arent mentioned in the scriptures.
Thanks

 

[MariaG]

NonDenom:

Hi
It is my opinion that the reason you hear it, is most former Catholics will tell you that it was because of their getting into the scriptures that they converted. There are five people in our church that were former Catholics and we are a small congregation. My wife went to Catholic school and to Catholic church for 27 years, and it wasn’t until I got her into some Bible studies that discovered the truth. You may not want to admit it, but most Catholic’s that leave the church will tell you that it was there study of the scriptures that caused them to leave the Catholic church. I think that a lot of the reason why is because of the oral tradition’s that arent mentioned in the scriptures.
Thanks

Could you be more specific? You talk about discovering the Truth and Oral traditions not in Scripture. Which truth? What Traditions?

God Bless,
Maria