To have a child or not to have a child

[EasterJoy]

I think it’s weird that anyone would come on an Internet forum and ask this question.

You’ll get responses all over the map.

When you are making a list of “pros” and “cons,” what harm does it do to get some help in considering what those are?

The OP is not going to get a consensus from this thread. You are right about that!!! Even if that were to happen, it would be a mistake to take anonymous advice from someone who only knows you in the vaguest possible terms. The idea needs to be to get help in how to think about this decision. The actual decision must be made by the couple themselves.

Gaining a number of different ways of looking at this is a true gain, however. The two spouses can take that and discern their choice from a broader perspective. The great thing is that not a single person who offered thoughts will ever know what the couple did. The couple will not have to worry in the least about offending someone they know by asking for their advice and then totally ignoring it. They ought to be able to do that, but few of us are so humble that we don’t feel a little hurt when someone makes their own decisions instead of going along with what we tell them they “should” do!

Of course, the other thing the spouses can do when reading this thread is to take note of the spats that come out of a discussion like this. That will tell them how careful they need to be in order to not offend anyone who asks about their choice. I think it is safe to say that they’ll see the wisdom of keeping mum about the particulars. Invite anyone into this decision, and they’ll often take your views as a very personal commentary on their choices! It is far better to answer questions about when and how many babies will come: “In the end, it is God’s decision, but it is something we keep in discernment. It is a very personal decision, too, don’t you think? We do. So many people I admire answer this question in so many different ways. If we keep our thinking to ourselves, they’ll feel less pressure to make their decision so as to please anyone but God. At any rate, that is the number one thing we’ve decided to do. I hope you understand.”

Oh, and besides–if you tell people you want to have a baby and then can’t, the questions can make matters even worse. Conversely, if you say you want to wait and then find you are expecting anyway, you run the risk that some idiot will tell your child some day that he or she wasn’t wanted when their time in the womb began. People cannot be trusted to be responsible with that information. Just don’t even tempt them to botch it up. Teach them that couples who want their (name removed by moderator)ut will be sure to ask for it, instead!!

 

[MomaMary8]

We started in abject poverty, bought our first house when baby #2 was on the way. One has since graduated from a private Catholic University (very little debt) and our second is in a nice Catholic college, living out her celibate vocation. Baby #11 is on the way and I have no plans on retiring. Financially we are are fine, better than many. We never regretted letting God lead us in our family plans.

Pray to God, seek a spiritual director. A spiritual director will be of more benefit than any financial advisor could ever be. The SD will help you when your cross appears…and it will.

I think that that advice has to be combined with a lot of practical fine print stuff or the couple will wind up in the sort of mess that Polar Guy has encountered doing bankruptcy work.

But the part you quoted was not advice, but my personal (abbreviated) story.

My advice, as I’ve quoted above, is to seek spiritual direction.

 

[Rico_S]

I think its great to have a plan and I think you are in a terrific spot! Since you are just out of college I will assume you are both early to mid twenties. Given your goals of buying a house, your youth, and your dual income status, I, personally would absolutely wait a while. I’d consider holding off pregnancy a couple of years with the express intention of socking all kinds of money away now. Max out any 401K and IRA contributions each year, and save as much $$ as you can. In 40 years, you will be so thankful that you got the retirement nest egg rolling early. At the same time, save all you can for the house down payment and your back up cash. Sounds like you could have well over 50k saved up in addition to retirement investments…that a nice start!

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

I cannot believe for one moment that on my deathbed I will lament: “Oh Lord! why didn’t we wait until my husband finished his graduate degree to have Johnny! We’d have been such a happier family. Please, take him back.”

Have the child, struggle, and be grateful. Can you imagine the people living in Christ’s time who wanted to put off a child until they could afford a bigger donkey?

We are saving for one now, TYVM. Nothing fancy mind you, probably just a small burro. But it’ll be OUR burro.

 

[Sarcelle]

Honestly…with all due respect, if you really want my opinion, you made a very big mistake by coming on an Internet forum to ask for advice on this topic. It’s between you, your spouse, and God.

The addition of a spiritual director would also come in handy.

 

[fencersmother]

The thing that really saddens me here is the implication that the poor, those who may never leave their impoverished state - ever - should not have children. Those whose education ended in grade 8, those who may never own a home, may live always in some trailer park or a mud hut, those who will never own any car, those who will have only menial jobs and will live their lives just paycheck to paycheck, or even sometimes on the charity of others.

If our OP and others here are likeminded, that all their material goods should be in place before they will accept the gift of a child (the FRUIT of their marriage) - it is a sad sad place we’ve come to.

And, let us not forget that even NFP is NOT to be used as “Catholic birth control” while you look for that 4 bed/3 bath house in the nice suburb (in your large SUV). It is to be used for grave circumstances - not just “we need a second car.”

 

[PhiloMed]

The thing that really saddens me here is the implication that the poor, those who may never leave their impoverished state - ever - should not have children. Those whose education ended in grade 8, those who may never own a home, may live always in some trailer park or a mud hut, those who will never own any car, those who will have only menial jobs and will live their lives just paycheck to paycheck, or even sometimes on the charity of others.

If our OP and others here are likeminded, that all their material goods should be in place before they will accept the gift of a child (the FRUIT of their marriage) - it is a sad sad place we’ve come to.

And, let us not forget that even NFP is NOT to be used as “Catholic birth control” while you look for that 4 bed/3 bath house in the nice suburb (in your large SUV). It is to be used for grave circumstances - not just “we need a second car.”

And I think it’s sad that some people think they should have children despite these challenges.

As I said in my previous post, marriages/families can handle different levels of stress and what you described above may be just fine for some and lead to a wonderful, full happy life. For others, it may lead to a miserable, bitter divorce, angry children and a repeat of the same cycle with the next generation.

Not everyone has the same tolerance level for stress and clearly someone who is asking the question in the first place probably has a lower tolerance to begin with.

 

[alphawoman]

The thing that really saddens me here is the implication that the poor, those who may never leave their impoverished state - ever - should not have children. Those whose education ended in grade 8, those who may never own a home, may live always in some trailer park or a mud hut, those who will never own any car, those who will have only menial jobs and will live their lives just paycheck to paycheck, or even sometimes on the charity of others.

If our OP and others here are likeminded, that all their material goods should be in place before they will accept the gift of a child (the FRUIT of their marriage) - it is a sad sad place we’ve come to.

And, let us not forget that even NFP is NOT to be used as “Catholic birth control” while you look for that 4 bed/3 bath house in the nice suburb (in your large SUV). It is to be used for grave circumstances - not just “we need a second car.”

Straw man, meet false dichotomy.

 

[Lorelei12]

The thing that really saddens me here is the implication that the poor, those who may never leave their impoverished state - ever - should not have children. Those whose education ended in grade 8, those who may never own a home, may live always in some trailer park or a mud hut, those who will never own any car, those who will have only menial jobs and will live their lives just paycheck to paycheck, or even sometimes on the charity of others.

If our OP and others here are likeminded, that all their material goods should be in place before they will accept the gift of a child (the FRUIT of their marriage) - it is a sad sad place we’ve come to.

And, let us not forget that even NFP is NOT to be used as “Catholic birth control” while you look for that 4 bed/3 bath house in the nice suburb (in your large SUV). It is to be used for grave circumstances - not just “we need a second car.”

Let us not forget that financial reasons are one of the many listed (not “grave”- why do people keep saying this?) circumstances the Church gives us for discerning the use of NFP. I don’t think anyone here implied that the poor should not have children, or that they’d prefer to hold out for a big house and an SUV before having children. Nor did anyone say they had to have all “material goods” in order before “accepting the gift of a child”. Those who use NFP are willing to accept the gift of a child if that should happen, so that’s an unfair accusation.

Wanting to be able to provide at least a modest home for a child, and provide some stability is not selfish. That doesn’t mean that people can’t make the best of their circumstances if they cannot do that, or that those people should not have children. No one said that.

There is really no need to be so defensive. The OP is trying to discern what is best for his family, not yours or anyone else’s.

 

[UbiCaritas]

Re planning financially for a family.

If we want to go full-on traditional, it was the custom, back in the day, for a young man who wanted to marry his intended to discuss the matter with her father. Part of that talk was to convince Daddy that he could support a wife and family. Why? Because, yes, it’s important to be able to keep a roof over the kids’ heads, and food in their bellies, and at a time when women didn’t have the legal rights they have now (and no argument, we should be glad we have those rights!), a good father would make sure that his daughter and her children would safe, fed, and housed.

While, of course, this paternal responsibility could be and was abused sometimes, it was, properly carried out, an exercise in prudence. Daddy wouldn’t be around forever; statistically, he was likely to pre-decease his daughter. If he had a daughter marry someone who couldn’t provide a safe home and a steady income, then very, very nasty things would happen to her if the husband left her unprovided-for after Daddy died. It’s hard to re-enter the workforce after being a SAHM now. When you literally can’t earn your living in any way except working as a servant (can’t bring the kids, but are expected to live in the house), a prostitute (problems obvious), or a governess (still can’t bring kids with you), then you have a Serious Problem.

The modern equivalent to this, now that we do have the right to work/hold money/etc, is to endeavor, both before the marriage and before endeavoring to conceive, to prepare to have a kid by making good financial and personal decisions. Is this so terrible?

Back in the day, only an unreasonable father would expect a prospective son-in-law to make the modern equivalent of a million dollars a year in order to marry his daughter. It would be reasonable, however, for him to ascertain if the guy was able to provide some combination of a safe place to stay, a chance of present and future income, and general stability.

(Yes, I know I keep referencing the guy and not a man and wife, but the assumption here is that the wife will transition to SAHM.)

Does this mean that someone who doesn’t make much money shouldn’t marry? Nope. It means that the couple should come up with a solid plan as to how they’ll handle some of the things that can come up. Last I checked, prudence is one of the cardinal virtues. Like any virtue, it can be abused into a fault, but figuring out how to start off a family on a reasonably solid footing (key word, solid) isn’t an abuse of that.

FWIW, OP, when DH and I got married, I had to quit my job to move to where DH lived. We talked about it very little, but figured we’d start a family soon, so we decided not to have me look for a job here. I got pregnant six months later.

We’re delighted with DD, and are beyond glad she’s here as a bubbly if impish 19-month-old. However, if I’d gotten a job here and worked for just a year before quitting, I could have paid off all my student loans, which would have made our lives a lot easier. We’re not hurting too badly, but we’ll be paying on those wretched loans for another 7 1/2 years still. $400 a month could be doing a lot more. We don’t regret DD for a moment, but I do wish that DH and I had talked and planned a bit more about money before getting married. Long-term planning we did quite well, for retirement and such, and we made a smart decision in buying much less house than we could afford, plus we don’t have any long-term credit card debt.

Would it be possible for your wife to work for another 3-6 months, and then you could start trying? That way, you’ll have a bit of savings built up, and she’ll likely work for at least 3-6 months of pregnancy, meaning that you could have a nice chunk of change for a downpayment by the time she stops work, anyhow.

Oh, on the “grave” thing, to answer another question. The word in the original Latin of Humanae Vitae is “Justus.” This translates to “just,” as you might imagine. (Yes, DH and I are nerds, and yes, we looked it up.) HV’s original English translation had the word mistranslated as “grave.” This was corrected in future translations.

 

[Xantippe]

Oh, and besides–if you tell people you want to have a baby and then can’t, the questions can make matters even worse. Conversely, if you say you want to wait and then find you are expecting anyway, you run the risk that some idiot will tell your child some day that he or she wasn’t wanted when their time in the womb began. People cannot be trusted to be responsible with that information. Just don’t even tempt them to botch it up. Teach them that couples who want their (name removed by moderator)ut will be sure to ask for it, instead!!

Right.

 

[Xantippe]

The thing that really saddens me here is the implication that the poor, those who may never leave their impoverished state - ever - should not have children. Those whose education ended in grade 8, those who may never own a home, may live always in some trailer park or a mud hut, those who will never own any car, those who will have only menial jobs and will live their lives just paycheck to paycheck, or even sometimes on the charity of others.

If our OP and others here are likeminded, that all their material goods should be in place before they will accept the gift of a child (the FRUIT of their marriage) - it is a sad sad place we’ve come to.

And, let us not forget that even NFP is NOT to be used as “Catholic birth control” while you look for that 4 bed/3 bath house in the nice suburb (in your large SUV). It is to be used for grave circumstances - not just “we need a second car.”

Either an SUV or a second car could be an actual serious need, under the right circumstances.

We had a poster earlier this week mentioning the need for an SUV for road conditions in their area. Likewise, with a long enough commute and/or living in the country, two vehicles becomes a need rather than a want.

Our family got on without a car until we had two kids, but we lived in a major metropolitan area in walkable neighborhoods and did grocery delivery. We also had only one car (and currently have one lent out) until very recently, but what makes life feasible with only one car is that we live within walking distance of my husband’s work. Not everybody can make that work. My mom, for instance, would have been high and dry living in the country with only one vehicle that my dad took to work. There’s also the issue that if you have two so-so cars, one of them can be in the shop at any point without major family disaster, whereas if you have only one so-so car, you’ll find yourself in crisis fairly regularly–in that situation everything has the potential to turn into a crisis.

 

[Xantippe]

Re planning financially for a family.

If we want to go full-on traditional, it was the custom, back in the day, for a young man who wanted to marry his intended to discuss the matter with her father. Part of that talk was to convince Daddy that he could support a wife and family. Why? Because, yes, it’s important to be able to keep a roof over the kids’ heads, and food in their bellies, and at a time when women didn’t have the legal rights they have now (and no argument, we should be glad we have those rights!), a good father would make sure that his daughter and her children would safe, fed, and housed.

Yes, it is actually more traditional to be very concerned as to whether a young couple is going to be able to support themselves and their future children.

Traditional marriage customs often involve major financial transactions: dowries, bride prices, marriage settlements, etc.

familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Marriage_Settlements_in_England_and_Wales

 

[Sen]

One thing to keep in mind is that while we all hope for a healthy pregnancy that’s not always what happens. Husband and I started out life with little debt (just his student loans) and we had a small amount of savings and between the two of us we made enough money to pay all our bills, save a little, and we had plenty of play money. So we felt pretty confident in having a baby right away. Sure we didn’t have a ton of money saved for emergencies and we had nothing saved for a house but we would be fine, what’s the worst that could happen? Well I’m not sure you could call my pregnancy the worse that could happen, neither my baby or I died but it wasn’t pretty and it’s left us with around $10,000 in medical and credit card bills. We blew through our paltry amount of savings pretty quickly and I was so sick I couldn’t work and husband had to take a lot of time off work to care for me so we had to put a lot of basic living expenses on the credit card. We’ll be ok, we aren’t in any danger of ending up homeless or anything but it’s hard paying these off when you have a baby and now we need both incomes, it’s going to be years probably before I’ll be able to quit working or we’ll even be able to think of saving for a house. So unexpected things do come up and emergencies happen, not all pregnancies go smoothly. I’m not going to tell you if you should wait or not to have a baby, that should really be a decision you two make after prayer and spiritual direction, but I don’t think that planning for your future means you don’t trust God or you’re selfish. It’s just common sense. Knowing what I know now, I wish we’d thought a little bit more about the financial side of life.

 

[Convert_in_99]

Ooh! Goody gumdrops another fight thread for NFP!!! :bounce:

 

[Kelfa28]

So, about the “worldliness” of an SUV.

First of all…it’s not possible to survive in the vast majority of the US without a vehicle if you have kids.

That vehicle quickly goes from a want to a need very, very quickly with the arrival of the first child.

Subsequent children can arrive extremely quickly.

We were a one vehicle family, a sedan, for a little while when my husband was unemployed.

Then we got pregnant with our third we immediately outgrew our sedan and needed either an SUV or a mini van.

Why you ask?

The law of the land in most, if not all, states has a weight requirement (not age) for car seats.

Because of the excellent metabolism my girls inherited, they will be in car seats and booster seats for over a decade.

In fact, all three are in large convertible car seats (by law), with no end in site.

You can barely fit two in a small sedan, let alone three.

Got any idea how expensive even a used mini-van costs?

Unless you’re willing to throw safety and thousands of dollars out the window for repair costs…you’re going to have to find money somewhere for a mini-van or full sized passenger van.

So, quit assuming us Catholic parents are too worldly wanting to get our ducks in a row and financing a fancy SUV or van…we kinda need it.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Ooh! Goody gumdrops another fight thread for NFP!!! :bounce:

Yup.

Breed for welfare checks vs dont have a kid until it makes economic sense ie Tiger Woods dad…

One has to wonder what kind of marriage or couple would make a decision like bringing forth new life and co creating with God with the (name removed by moderator)ut of strangers on the internet anyway?

But since the OP asked. And everyone seems to want to have a say… I think they should conceive tonight.

 

[Kelfa28]

But since the OP asked. And everyone seems to want to have a say… I think they should conceive tonight.

I couldn’t agree more.

We’ve been open to live even at the worst possible time…when we “knew” there was no way we could handle another kid…and God gave us one anyway…

We’re making it work.

It’s really hard but that’s marriage…being open to life whether God gives you babies or not.

This is why I don’t think anyone should get married until they are ready for kids…debt or no debt, house or no house, career or no career.

 

[Convert_in_99]

I couldn’t agree more.

We’ve been open to live even at the worst possible time…when we “knew” there was no way we could handle another kid…and God gave us one anyway…

We’re making it work.

It’s really hard but that’s marriage…being open to life whether God gives you babies or not.

This is why I don’t think anyone should get married until they are ready for kids…debt or no debt, house or no house, career or no career.

Very true! Great post!

 

[ThePCWife]

So, about the “worldliness” of an SUV.

First of all…it’s not possible to survive in the vast majority of the US without a vehicle if you have kids.

That vehicle quickly goes from a want to a need very, very quickly with the arrival of the first child.

Subsequent children can arrive extremely quickly.

We were a one vehicle family, a sedan, for a little while when my husband was unemployed.

Then we got pregnant with our third we immediately outgrew our sedan and needed either an SUV or a mini van.

Why you ask?

The law of the land in most, if not all, states has a weight requirement (not age) for car seats.

Because of the excellent metabolism my girls inherited, they will be in car seats and booster seats for over a decade.

In fact, all three are in large convertible car seats (by law), with no end in site.

You can barely fit two in a small sedan, let alone three.

Got any idea how expensive even a used mini-van costs?

Unless you’re willing to throw safety and thousands of dollars out the window for repair costs…you’re going to have to find money somewhere for a mini-van or full sized passenger van.

So, quit assuming us Catholic parents are too worldly wanting to get our ducks in a row and financing a fancy SUV or van…we kinda need it.

A lot of the people who are more blase about that kind of thing had most or all of their kids before car seat regulations became so challenging in the 1980s. If you had your kid(s) before Bush 1 was President, you got to toss however many kids in and just go. Whole different world.