To Planten or any other Muslim

[Selene]

Hi

I wish you and all my Catholic/non-Catholic frineds here a happy new year 2008.

No, I don’t think so.

I quoted from Quran and I repeat again:

[3:60] Surely, the case of Jesus with Allah is like the case of Adam. He created him out of dust, then he said to him, "Be’, and he was.
[3:61] This is the truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of those who doubt.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=3&verse=60

So, it is Adam who is created from “the clay” which is , I think, also mentioned in the OTBible.Jesus being Son of Adam, and all humans also in this sense could be termed as created from the clay, I think you won’t disagree.
The next similarity between Adam and Jesus is mentioned in the above verse, as I understand, that GodAllahYHWH said for creation of Adam the words “Be” and man started taking shape and was completed in millions/billions of years till the best among them was named Adam. So the creation of Adam started with the word “Be” a commandment of GodAllahYHWH, which as everyone undestands is a **natural phenomenon **set by GodAllahYHWH.
As Adam was created with the "Word ‘Be’ ‘’ likewise JesusYeshuaIssa’s conception to Mary was with the "Word ‘Be’ ‘’ from GodAllahYHWH.

This is what I understand, you or anyother Catholic don’t have to agree with me, you could differ with me if you please want to.

I think it is not difficult to undestand.

Thanks

Hello Paarsurrey,

I think you misunderstood your Qur’an. Your Qur’an does not say that all human beings after Adam were created from clay. It simply said that Adam was created from the dust by God’s created word “Be.” Your Qur’an compares this creation of Adam to Isa (Jesus) because both Adam and Jesus did not have any human fathers and were created from God’s creative word “BE.” All others were created from a reproductive cycle and had human mothers and fathers. It is only Adam and Jesus who did not have any human fathers. Interestingly, the New Testament also calls Jesus the “new Adam.”

I also stated that your Qur’an recognized Isa (Jesus) as the “Word of God” and the “Word from God.” The Arabic words kalimatuhu (Word of God) and kalimatun minhu (Word from God) is a title applied only to Jesus. Some Muslim scholars believe that this title was applied to Jesus because Jesus was created in the same way as Adam. However, Muslims could not explain why Adam is not also called “the Word of God” and the “Word from God.” Only Jesus has these titles in the Qur’an. Other Muslim scholars argue that these titles were given to Jesus only because of the powerful way he preached God’s word. If that was the case, then why wasn’t Muhammed honored with this same title? To find the answer, one need to go back to the gospels where the “Word of God” was first mentioned long before the Qur’an was ever written.

My Muslim friend, your Qur’an was correct in calling Jesus the “Word of God” and the “Word from God.” But your Qur’an cannot expalin why he was given those titles. The explaination can only be found in the Gospel of John - a book that was written long before the Qur’an. As Allah stated in your Qur’an, to find the truth, one needs to go to the people of the book. The people of the book in your Qur’an are the Jews and the Christians.

Best regards,
Selene

 

[paarsurrey]

Hello Paarsurrey,
I think you misunderstood your Qur’an. Your Qur’an does not say that all human beings after Adam were created from clay.

Hi

Let us examine from the following ( just one place from so many) verses in Quran

[30:18] So glorify Allah when you enter the evening and when you enter the morning -
[30:19] And to Him belongs all praise in the heavens and the earth - and glorify Him in the afternoon and when you enter upon the time of the decline of the sun.
[30:20] He brings forth the living from the dead, and He brings forth the dead from the living; and He gives life to the earth after its death. And in like manner shall you be brought forth.**
[30:21] And of His Signs is that He created you from dust; then behold, you are men spreading over the earth. **[30:22] And of His Signs is that He has created wives for you from among yourselves that you may find peace of mind in them, and He has put love and tenderness between you. In that, surely, are Signs for a people who reflect.
[30:23] And of His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your tongues and colours. In that, surely, are Signs for those who possess knowledge.
[30:24] And of His Signs is your sleep by night, and by day, your seeking of His bounty. In that, surely, are Signs for a people who would listen.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=30&verse=20

Here Quran mentions for all the humans that they have been created from dust/clay; so was Adam and likewise JesusYeshuaIssa noone agaist the nature created by GodAllahYHWH.

The West seems to have accepted the notion already as we see in English “Dust though art to dust returnest”

I think I wrote correctly.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut

 

[Selene]

Hi

Let us examine from the following ( just one place from so many) verses in Quran

[30:18] So glorify Allah when you enter the evening and when you enter the morning -
[30:19] And to Him belongs all praise in the heavens and the earth - and glorify Him in the afternoon and when you enter upon the time of the decline of the sun.
[30:20] He brings forth the living from the dead, and He brings forth the dead from the living; and He gives life to the earth after its death. And in like manner shall you be brought forth.**
[30:21] And of His Signs is that He created you from dust; then behold, you are men spreading over the earth. **[30:22] And of His Signs is that He has created wives for you from among yourselves that you may find peace of mind in them, and He has put love and tenderness between you. In that, surely, are Signs for a people who reflect.
[30:23] And of His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your tongues and colours. In that, surely, are Signs for those who possess knowledge.
[30:24] And of His Signs is your sleep by night, and by day, your seeking of His bounty. In that, surely, are Signs for a people who would listen.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=30&verse=20

Here Quran mentions for all the humans that they have been created from dust/clay; so was Adam and likewise JesusYeshuaIssa noone agaist the nature created by GodAllahYHWH.

The West seems to have accepted the notion already as we see in English “Dust though art to dust returnest”

I think I wrote correctly.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut

Hello Paarsurrey,

I stand corrected. Your Qur’an did indeed say that all men were created from dust. You are correct that the West accepts the notion that man returns to dust when they die despite that all were reproduced sexually after Adam.

However, I was referring to verse 3:59 that compares the creation of Jesus to that of Adam because both Jesus and Adam did not have any human fathers. The Qur’an does not mention Joseph. Arabs are usually named with reference to their father, but Jesus had no father. Therefore, in the Qur’an Jesus is often called the "son of Mary. St. John the Baptist, on the other hand, has a human father.

Best regards,
Selene

 

[paarsurrey]

You are correct that the West accepts the notion that man returns to dust when they die despite that all were reproduced sexually after Adam.
Best regards,
Selene

Hi

I appreciate your openmindedness.

“Dust though art to dust returnest” I think in its first part “Dust though art” it is implied that every human being has taken birth from the dust/clay. Jesus voluntarily said that he was Son of Adam or Son of Man, that also implies to me that he had an apprehension that his followers might one day make him a divine, so Jesus said he was Son of Adam, implying that he was born of dust/clay as was Adam and he was naturaly born of Mary so there was nothing divine in him.

This is my opinion, you could differe with me if you don’t agree with me, no compulsion.

Thanks

 

[Selene]

Hi

I appreciate your openmindedness.

“Dust though art to dust returnest” I think in its first part “Dust though art” it is implied that every human being has taken birth from the dust/clay. Jesus voluntarily said that he was Son of Adam or Son of Man, that also implies to me that he had an apprehension that his followers might one day make him a divine, so Jesus said he was Son of Adam, implying that he was born of dust/clay as was Adam and he was naturaly born of Mary so there was nothing divine in him.

This is my opinion, you could differe with me if you don’t agree with me, no compulsion.

Thanks

Our Bible says that Jesus is the Son of Man as well. But our Bible also says that He is the Word of God - just like your Qur’an. This is a title that belongs only to Jesus. The Gospel of John is much older than your Qur’an and it is only in that Gospel that explains what your Qur’an cannot explain as to why only Jesus has that title “Word of God” and “Word from God.”

John 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word: the Word was with God and the Word was God…The Word was made flesh, he lived among us, and we saw his glory, the glory that is his as the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Best regards,
Selene

 

[paarsurrey]

Our Bible says that Jesus is the Son of Man as well. But our Bible also says that He is the Word of God - just like your Qur’an. This is a title that belongs only to Jesus. The Gospel of John is much older than your Qur’an and it is only in that Gospel that explains what your Qur’an cannot explain as to why only Jesus has that title “Word of God” and “Word from God.”

Hi

I agree with you that NTBible is the Sacred Scriptures of Catholics ( and also of many other denominations who are not Catholics) is on time scale an earlier book; Vedas and Gita are I think more older book than NTBible; yet these don’t even mention of Jesus. Buddhism has similarly Sacred Scriptures; while Buddha is also said to be also, according to some tradition born from a virgin:

Buddha
Siddhartha Gautama was reported to have been born after appearing to his mother in a dream, taking the form of a white elephant. According to legend, his mother had a completely painless delivery and bore him out of her side. Also, as soon as the baby Siddhartha was delivered, he took seven steps, and under each step bloomed a lotus flower.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reports_of_unusual_religious_childbirths

We only believe as it is mentioned in Quran that Mary conceived a child, on a word from GodAllahYHWH, who was later named JesusYeshuaIssa Son of Mary. But Quran says also that Adam was also born from a Word “Be” from GodAllahYHWH, similarly John the Baptist was also born from Word of Tidings from GodAllahYHWH conveyed by an angel to Zeckaria. Similarly Sarah received Word of Tidings from GodAllahYHWH conveyed through an angel. So the Word means word of tidings or Word of Revelation before birth of a child, which at least 2/3 persons share with Jesus. That does not make them all God or Son of God, in our view, which is basically Quranic/Islamic view.

You could have a different view, no compulsion.

I think it is reasonable and not difficult to understand.

Thanks

 

[Selene]

Hi

I agree with you that NTBible is the Sacred Scriptures of Catholics ( and also of many other denominations who are not Catholics) is on time scale an earlier book; Vedas and Gita are I think more older book than NTBible; yet these don’t even mention of Jesus. Buddhism has similarly Sacred Scriptures; while Buddha is also said to be also, according to some tradition born from a virgin:

Buddha’s mother was not a virgin. He had a human father. Buddha’s father was Suddhodana, the king of Kapilavastu in Magadha. Buddha was actually born a prince who later gave up his wealth to search for enlightment. Jesus is not mention in the Vedas because Buddhism is an Asian religion. Jesus is not Asian nor did he come from Asia. He was from the Middle East.

But Quran says also that Adam was also born from a Word “Be” from GodAllahYHWH, similarly John the Baptist was also born from Word of Tidings from GodAllahYHWH conveyed by an angel to Zeckaria. Similarly Sarah received Word of Tidings from GodAllahYHWH conveyed through an angel. So the Word means word of tidings or Word of Revelation before birth of a child, which at least 2/3 persons share with Jesus. That does not make them all God or Son of God, in our view, which is basically Quranic/Islamic view.

 

[inJESUS]

Am i the only one who has not read an answer about the question as why is Jesus born to no father?

 

[dolphinlove]

Am i the only one who has not read an answer about the question as why is Jesus born to no father?

Ive also read many attempts to get off the subject…
But i have not read any…

 

[swariffin]

Hi

I agree with you that NTBible is the Sacred Scriptures of Catholics ( and also of many other denominations who are not Catholics) is on time scale an earlier book; Vedas and Gita are I think more older book than NTBible; yet these don’t even mention of Jesus. Buddhism has similarly Sacred Scriptures; while Buddha is also said to be also, according to some tradition born from a virgin:

Dear Paarsurrey,

Many people can create “supernatural stories” regarding the “Prophet” of their religion. The question is, how such stories can be verified. If yes, then we have a historical proof or witnesses, if not, then we have myths. As far as I know, from the Indian “Mahabharata” we have the story of Khresna who was born from the ear of his mother (his mother remained virgin afterward). Khresna was born without humanly father, since his father was the god of the sun. And yet, Khresna was never to be god. He even was killed in the battle of “Bharatayudha” by his younger brother who was born naturally from the same mother. Again, fatherless and virgin birth is not a monopoly of Jesus nor Christianity. The difference is, in Jesus case, there were witnesses. So, Jesus virgin birth was no myth. In myths, you can throw any stories to answer the question of why the fatherless and virgin birth. In real case, the question remains. Why fatherless and virgin birth? Only the denial of our selfness and the openness to God, we can answer that question. And we believe that the answer lies in Jesus himself.

 

[Reuben_J]

The Qur’an calls Jesus a “Word of God” kalimatuhu and a “Word from God” kalimatun minhu. Muslim commentators consider these to be one title, and these arabic words were applied only to Jesus in the Qur’an. Adam was never called *kalimatuhu *or kalimatun minh at all.

Sura 4:171 O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word (kalimatuhu)

“Kalimatuhu” is Arabic meaning “Word of God.” The Qur’an says that Jesus was not only an apostle of Allah, but also kalimatuhu His Word. Adam was created by Allah’s creative word “BE” but Adam was never called God’s Word (kalimatuhu). This is a title that belongs only to Jesus. Even Prophet Muhammed was never called “Word of God” (kalimatuhu).

But our Bible also says that He is the Word of God - just like your Qur’an. This is a title that belongs only to Jesus. The Gospel of John is much older than your Qur’an and it is only in that Gospel that explains what your Qur’an cannot explain as to why only Jesus has that title “Word of God” and “Word from God.”

John 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word: the Word was with God and the Word was God…The Word was made flesh, he lived among us, and we saw his glory, the glory that is his as the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Thanks for telling us this. Please keep on asking until you get an answer. May I ask permission to copy this and would ask Muslims myself in opportune moments?

I’ve read that this is one issue that make Muslims convert to Christianity because Islam is unable to answer this question. And the answer is only to be found in the Bible. And so the truth. Remember that Muslims are looking for the truth too.

How prophetic - I am the truth, the way and the life, which no one can go to the Father except through kalimatuhu … (paraphrase).

God bless.

 

[Booklover]

Hi

Conception of Jesus or Issa to His Mother Mary

[19:17] And relate the story of Mary as mentioned in the Book, when she withdrew from her people to an eastern place;
[19:18] And screened herself off from them. **Then We sent Our angel to her and he appeared to her in the form of a well proportioned man.**19:19] She said, ‘I seek refuge with the Gracious God from thee if indeed thou dost fear Him.’
[19:20] The angel said, ‘I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that **I may give thee glad tidings of a righteous son.’ **[19:21] She said, 'How can I have a son when no man has touched me, neither have I been unchaste?’
[19:22] The angel said, ‘Thus it shall be.’ **But says thy Lord, ‘It is easy for ME; and We shall do so that We may make him a Sign unto men, and a mercy from US, and it is a thing decreed.’ **
**[19:23] So she conceived him, and withdrew with him to a remote place. **[19:24] And the pains of child-birth drove her unto the trunk of a palm-tree. She said, 'O, would that I had died before this and had become a thing quite forgotten!
[19:25] Then the angel called her from beneath her, saying, 'Grieve not. Thy Lord has placed a rivulet below thee;
[19:26] 'And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree; it will drop upon thee fresh ripe dates;
[19:27] 'So, eat and drink and cool thine eye. And if thou seest any man, say, ‘I have vowed a fast to the Gracious God; I will, therefore, not speak this day to any human being.’
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=19&verse=20

I would request my Christians friends here, to just point out what common points they see in the conception of John to his mother and conception of Jesus to Mary in the above quoted verses of Quran. I think this detail, to my knowledge, is not available in NTBible though it came alomost 600 years before Quran.

Thanks

I wonder whether Muslims really believe in the virgin birth of Jesus when I read a statement like the one I bolded in red. Why stress that Gabriel appeared “in the form of a well proportioned man”? It sounds more like Gabriel impregnated Mary than anything else.

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

am sorry but where did you write anything?

the matter is clear. We are asking about the “why”…you can present any argument …not a definitive answer…

do i understand that you don’t want to discuss it?

 

[dolphinlove]

inJESUS;3139865:

When really pressed for an answer, they run away! I’ve asked Muslims who Jesus was referring to when he mentioned his Father in heaven, and got no replies either, other than that was something Muslims didn’t think about!

Vickie

I like the approach, if they dont know an answer, they start a new thread on something completely different, until they run out of answers for their new thread, then they start a new one!

 

[paarsurrey]

[19:18] And screened herself off from them. Then We sent Our angel to her and he appeared to her in the form of a well proportioned man.[19:19] She said, ‘I seek refuge with the Gracious God from thee if indeed thou dost fear Him.’

I wonder whether Muslims really believe in the virgin birth of Jesus when I read a statement like the one I bolded in red. Why stress that Gabriel appeared “in the form of a well proportioned man”? It sounds more like Gabriel impregnated Mary than anything else.
Vickie

Hi

I think that is only your apprehension; the Quranic verse or the Muslims don’t say so.

Thanks

 

[hopelessrom_grl]

okay…here’s a question to Muslims

You believe that Jesus a a Prophet of God and he’s born by virgin birth…BUT why isn’t Muhamad born of virgin birth?..isn’t he suppose to be the Greatest Islamic prophet?

 

[planten]

I wonder whether Muslims really believe in the virgin birth of Jesus when I read a statement like the one I bolded in red. Why stress that Gabriel appeared “in the form of a well proportioned man”? It sounds more like Gabriel impregnated Mary than anything else.

Vickie

This is not the Muslim belief. Gabriel is an angel and angels do not do any mischief or sin. Muslims do not believe ( like the christians also do not believe) that any one impregnated Mary for the birth of Jesus.

That was a good news man. The angel appeared in the form a most suitable man when he passed the news to Mary. There is no harm in that. And Mary was also right when she said: “I seek refuge with The Lord from you if you are also a pious person”

That proves she was pious and virgin and did not want to have anything to do with the messenger, hoping that he was also pious. Till then she did not know who he was.

In the next verse, angel Gabriel told her: " :Surely, I am only a messenger of thy Lord so that I may give you (the news of) a youngman, pious youngman." Please see the other translation also below:

[19:19]’" I seek refuge with the Gracious God from thee if indeed thou dost fear Him.’
[19:20] The angel said, 'I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may give thee glad tidings of a righteous son."

So there is no mistake or anything wrong with the messenger or the message or Mary. Mary, the mother was sinless, so much that according to Quran ( chapter 66 last verse), even devil did not go near her. Devil (Al-Shaitan) never tempted or troubled her. But that is another story.

 

[paarsurrey]

kalimatuhu

Hi

kalimatuhu- His (GodAllahYHWH’s) word, good tidings from GodAllahYHWH, commandments of GodAllahYHWH, revelation from GodAllahYHWH. Ishmael, Isaac, John the Baptist, Jesus (and many others) whose mothers’ got conceived with some **prophecy conveyed by GodAllahYHWH through an angel **are all **HIS WORD-KALIMATUHU **as per usage of the Quran, in my opinion.

[66:12] And Allah holds forth as an example, for those who believe, the wife of Pharaoh when she said, 'My Lord! build for me a house with Thee in the Garden; and deliver me from Pharaoh and his work, and deliver me from the wrongdoing people;
[66:13] And sets forth as an example Mary, the daughter of Imr›n, who guarded her chastity - **so We breathed into him of Our Spirit -and she fulfilled the prophecy conveyed to her in the words of her Lord contained in His Books **and she was one of the obedient.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=66&verse=10

Thanks

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi

kalimatuhu- His (GodAllahYHWH’s) word, good tidings from GodAllahYHWH, commandments of GodAllahYHWH, revelation from GodAllahYHWH. Ishmael, Isaac, John the Baptist, Jesus (and many others) whose mothers’ got conceived with some **prophecy conveyed by GodAllahYHWH through an angel **are all **HIS WORD-KALIMATUHU **as per usage of the Quran, in my opinion.

…

I would urge you to be completely honest here. Are there any other personalities in the Quran that are categorically given the title KALIMATUHU other than Jesus? If none, you would be seen trying to sidestep the guy’s questions, which so far have not been answered by any Muslims.

Also if none, then it’s a clear admission of the uniqueness of Jesus position, even in the Quran. And which it cannot satisfactorily account for why this title is given uniquely to Jesus.

For your information, even Satan himself knows who Jesus is. It is the lie that he says about Jesus that is more troublesome to his victims.

As for the title Word of God, you will only find the answer in the Bible. I should urge you to go for it, even if it’s just for your knowledge so that you know why Jesus is called the Word of God.

 

[inJESUS]

inJESUS;3139865:

When really pressed for an answer, they run away! I’ve asked Muslims who Jesus was referring to when he mentioned his Father in heaven, and got no replies either, other than that was something Muslims didn’t think about!

Vickie

as a matter of fact, some do believe it was Gabriel who breathed into Mary’s “private parts” ! which gives the impression it was Gabriel who gave life!..i do not see it in any different way.