To Planten or any other Muslim

[FaithofAbraham]

Hi

To be more precise, Quran only says that Jesus was born from Mary, Mary was not touched by any human being for conception, so Jesus had no father. Quran does not say it in so many words that Mary was a virgin.

Please quote from Quran.

Thanks

This sounds to me like no man had ever touched her and that she never had sex.

Quran 19:20 She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Not true! You are using the scriptures selectively. I give you a set of scriptures that provide the right context for understanding all of them. You ignore half, and then put your own slant on what is left. That is not the right way to understand the Bible—or the Koran. Is that how you interpret the Koran?

Here are some more scriptures for you to look at. Let’s see how you will get around these:

John 1:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

---

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

zerinus

When every Biblical reference to son of God and children of God refers to special believers of God, even right there in Luke for Adam as a man created directly by God, and in Romans for all men led by the Holy Spirit, there’s not a real way to justify turning only one of them into a demigod just to satisfy a doctrine. In this case the demigod usage is the selective usage.

Jesus doesn’t appear until John 1:14. The following also says God’s Word was made flesh in Moses: a man spoke God’s Word. But it also could have been easily worked to say that Moses turned into God Himself, if that idea wanted to be promoted.

Exodus 4:15-16 And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do. And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God. (MOSES IS GOD IN THE FLESH)

 

[De_Maria]

When every Biblical reference to son of God and children of God refers to special believers of God, even right there in Luke for Adam as a man created directly by God, and in Romans for all men led by the Holy Spirit, there’s not a real way to justify turning only one of them into a demigod just to satisfy a doctrine. In this case the demigod usage is the selective usage.

No. It is obvious that Jesus said He is God and that the people around Him understood what He said. One group reviled Him for it and had Him crucified. The other group believed Him and worships Him to this day.

Jesus doesn’t appear until John 1:14.

That is a curious statement. As though the four Gospels were listed in chronological order. Each Gospel begins at the beginning and ends in the Resurrection. They all explain the life of Christ.

The following also says God’s Word was made flesh in Moses: a man spoke God’s Word. But it also could have been easily worked to say that Moses turned into God Himself, if that idea wanted to be promoted.

In other words, you don’t care what it actually says but what it could say in order to justify your understanding.

Exodus 4:15-16 And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do. And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God. (MOSES IS GOD IN THE FLESH)

No. Moses is god. He speaks with the authority of God.

Everyone with authority was called god. But you have to read the context:

Exodus 21
6 His master shall bring him to the gods, and he shall be set to the door and the posts, and he shall bore his ear through with an awl: and he shall be his servant for ever.

Exodus 22
28 Thou shalt not speak ill of the gods, and the prince of thy people thou shalt not curse.

But we must not take idols and worship them as God:
Exodus 22

20 He that sacrificeth to gods, shall be put to death, save only to the Lord.

Therefore, please read the context. It is very important.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[FaithofAbraham]

No. It is obvious that Jesus said He is God and that the people around Him understood what He said. One group reviled Him for it and had Him crucified. The other group believed Him and worships Him to this day.

Jesus never said he was God, he said he spoke as God with God’s authority. Jews killed a lot of their prophets for saying the same thing.

Matthew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

That is a curious statement. As though the four Gospels were listed in chronological order. Each Gospel begins at the beginning and ends in the Resurrection. They all explain the life of Christ.

Then we come back to what I asked in the other thread. If Jesus was also human, at what point did his human spirit come into being? Was it there with God, as God, in John 1:1? If so you are saying that God Himself is also human which is what the Mormons say.

If not then his human spirit is a creation so then it is more sensible to interpret the whole thing as being, God created Jesus with His Word as He did with Adam, then God dwelled in Jesus the human as He did with Moses. So that neither Moses nor Jesus are deities or gods, but had the power of God dwelling in them and are God over the people.

In other words, you don’t care what it actually says but what it could say in order to justify your understanding.

I’m saying that Christians have done just that.

No. Moses is god. He speaks with the authority of God.

Everyone with authority was called god. But you have to read the context:

You hit the nail on the head, it is a description of the authority they had over the people, not a statement about their deity. Same with Jesus.

 

[paarsurrey]

You must not know the definition of miracle:
any amazing or wonderful occurrence
a marvellous event manifesting a supernatural act of God

Hi

Thank you for providing a definition of a miracle. I think you won’t mind if I provide a more elaborate definition of a miracle, as we Ahmadi peaceful Muslim understand it.

What are Miracles?
alislam.org/library/books/christianity_facts_to_fiction/chapter_1.html#pgfId-1006069

With the possibility of virgin birth being wide open, it does not remain to be all that impossible and unnatural. Where is the need to search for a supernatural explanation of Jesus’ birth, or even go beyond that to the farthest extreme of believing in the birth of a literal ‘Son’ of God through a human birth? When all this is observed as a fact of nature, why is it hard to believe that the birth of Jesus Christ was a hidden natural phenomenon, brought about by a special design of God?

Something happened in Mary which gave that child a miraculous birth, without a man having touched her. It is the Ahmadiyya Muslim belief that this is exactly what happened. Our case is unshakeable because no scientist can dismiss it as nonsensical or opposed to the known laws of nature.

Miracles are not seen in Islam as unnatural occurrences, but as natural phenomena that are concealed from human knowledge at that period of time. Otherwise, there would be many questions raised against the wisdom of God. If God created the laws of nature Himself, He should have made some provisions whereby without breaking them, He could bring about desired solutions to a problem.

Not all laws are known to man. There are categories of laws working as if in different tiers and on separate plains. Sometimes they are known to man only on one plain and man’s sight is not able to penetrate beyond. As time goes on, man’s knowledge increases, so does the penetration and his capacity to observe such laws as hitherto remained unperceived. In another era of scientific progress, new discoveries throw more light on such laws which seem to work in groups. So, not only is their function better understood but also their interaction with other laws.

Those things that appeared to be miracles in the early ages are no longer considered so. Miracles are so, only in relation to man’s knowledge in a specific period of time. When a special exercise of God’s power is displayed, apparently a law is broken. But it is not so; it is a hidden law that was already there and came into operation through God’s command.

The people of that time could not have understood that law nor had they any control over it. For example, the force of magnetism was not known to man a few thousand years ago. If somebody had accidentally discovered it and had contrived a device by which he could levitate things without any apparent cause discernible to the naked eye and to the wonderment of everyone, he could then exclaim, ‘Lo, a miracle, a miracle’. Today, such tricks are considered common place and trivial.

The knowledge of man is limited whereas that of God is unlimited. If a law comes into operation that is beyond the scope of man’s knowledge, it looks like a miracle. But looking retrospectively at such instances with the hindsight of knowledge gained since, we can dismiss all such so-called breaches of the laws of nature as merely natural phenomena which were not fully comprehended by the man of that age.

This is why I said that there had to be a natural phenomenon responsible for the single parent birth of Jesus Christ, which was unknown to man of that period; it is not fully known to man even today. But science is advancing in that direction and more is being understood. A time may therefore come, when no one will be able to claim that the birth of Jesus was unnatural. They would have to agree that it was a natural but rare occurrence, so rare that it seldom occurs in human experience.
alislam.org/library/books/christianity_facts_to_fiction/chapter_1.html#pgfId-1006069

I think it is reasonable and you would agree with it.

Thanks

 

[inJESUS]

All prophets make themselves equal to God’s authority, people are supposed to obey them as God’s Word on earth. As I’ve posted elsewhere with Moses.

what other prophet was accused of blasphemy for equalling himself to God?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

what other prophet was accused of blasphemy for equalling himself to God?

People are accused of playing God all the time. Like “Who do you think you are, God, to tell us what to do?”

That’s not anything like proof Jesus was saying he is God. In Judaism when you defy rabbinical authority by claiming greater authority and teach something different about God than they teach, you may be charged with blaspheming.

Do stop behaving as if you are God, Professor Dawkins

 

[FaithofAbraham]

This is why I said that there had to be a natural phenomenon responsible for the single parent birth of Jesus Christ, which was unknown to man of that period; it is not fully known to man even today. But science is advancing in that direction and more is being understood. A time may therefore come, when no one will be able to claim that the birth of Jesus was unnatural. They would have to agree that it was a natural but rare occurrence, so rare that it seldom occurs in human experience.
alislam.org/library/books/christianity_facts_to_fiction/chapter_1.html#pgfId-1006069

I think it is reasonable and you would agree with it.

Thanks

The Quran is clear it’s not a matter of natural design but God’s direct action, He created Jesus from dust not from Mary’s flesh.

Quran 3:59 Truly, the likeness of Jesus, in God’s sight, is as Adam’s likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, ‘Be,’ and he was.

Quran 19:21 He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.

 

[inJESUS]

He is David’s son come to claim his reward of the kingdom,

in other words, David had a son out of sexual union, the son died, and then reincarnated in the person of Jesus so actually Jesus was not born without a father, rather the Father put David’s sperm into Mary, making Jesus the biological son of David and Mary?? Am sure David’s son cannot say " i am the alpha and omega" since he had a beginning and an end.

Joseph , the husband of Mary, was a son of David:

Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife.

surely David is not the direct biological father of Joseph, but Joseph is an offspring of David.Jesus could have been the son of Joseph, son of David, if Mary and Joseph had sexual union, and He would be legally called “from the seed of David” or “offspring of David” and the promise will be fulfilled without the fictional reincarntion of David’s dead son as another person.

Elsewhere you say God always existed eternally, but the human spirit of Jesus did not. Well here’s why, it’s because Jesus is human son of David, not God.

 

[inJESUS]

People are accused of playing God all the time. Like “Who do you think you are, God, to tell us what to do?”

my question is specific. Who of all the prophets were accused of blasphemy for equalling himself to God?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

my question is specific. Who of all the prophets were accused of blasphemy for equalling himself to God?

You are misunderstanding what they said though. They didn’t say Jesus said “Look, it’s me God here!” They were saying Jesus was playing God over them and claiming to have God’s authority. As all the prophets claimed to speak with God’s authority. They didn’t believe what he said so they deemed him to be a false prophet speaking blasphemy in the name of God.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

in other words, David had a son out of sexual union, the son died, and then reincarnated in the person of Jesus so actually Jesus was not born without a father, rather the Father put David’s sperm into Mary, making Jesus the biological son of David and Mary?? Am sure David’s son cannot say " i am the alpha and omega" since he had a beginning and an end.

Not reincarnated. The child’s flesh was resurrected by God and placed into Mary, God recreated Jesus from the dust – bones – of the child, as the Quran implies. That is how Jesus can be firstborn of the dead, the first man to have died and be born again through the womb. That’s why what Nicodemus said is mentioned, how can a man die and be born through the womb twice?

Just as God created Adam from dust and put him in the Garden. As the Quran says it is no big deal for God to do. So in all that, Mary is also symbolic of the Garden of Eden.

2- Jesus is the Word of God, regardless of whether He took a human spirit at a certain time or not…being the eternal Word of God, He cannot be the son of David, unless David is God.
As the Messiah and Word of God, everything was and is created by Him, including David. David cannot be the Father of the One who created him.

The human spirit that was not always there eternally with God is Jesus, the child of David. God dwelled in Jesus and Jesus became the Word of God on earth, God in the flesh. Just like Moses, only greater, the greatest of all. That is all the proper way to look at it.

You can’t just gloss over the human spirit of Jesus, its origin and place in the identity of Jesus has to be handled. Otherwise you are basically insulting poor Jesus as a human being and ignoring him in favor of the deity you’ve made him out to be. It’s good you are still glorifying God in all that, but in doing so you minimize the strength and sacrifice of the human Jesus.

 

[inJESUS]

You are misunderstanding what they said though. They didn’t say Jesus said “Look, it’s me God here!”

no, they said “You,** a man,** are making yourself God.” As if they are saying that a mere human cannot be God.

They were saying Jesus was playing God over them

 

[De_Maria]

Jesus never said he was God, he said he spoke as God with God’s authority. Jews killed a lot of their prophets for saying the same thing.

Matthew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Not the same thing. Jesus said He is the Son of God, spoke of God as His Father and said He is from Heaven. His use of the phrase “I AM” in reference to Himself is also a clue. In addition, the Jews who killed the prophets did not kill them for blasphemy but accused them of being false prophets because they did not want to hear what God had to say through them. But none were killed for claiming to be God. Yet that is precisely why Jesus was killed.

Then we come back to what I asked in the other thread. If Jesus was also human, at what point did his human spirit come into being?

At His conception. As are all human spirits.

Was it there with God, as God, in John 1:1?

No.

If so you are saying that God Himself is also human which is what the Mormons say.

That is not the Catholic Teaching.

If not then his human spirit is a creation so then it is more sensible to interpret the whole thing as being, God created Jesus wtith His Word as He did with Adam, then God dwelled in Jesus the human as He did with Moses. So that neither Moses nor Jesus are deities or gods, but had the power of God dwelling in them and are God over the people.

No. God dwells in all of us as He dwelt in Moses and the other prophets. We are temples of the Holy Spirit.

However, Jesus is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.

Put it like this, its a mystery. But all is possible with God…

God knit a child in Mary’s womb. Then He united Himself with that child and named Him Jesus. His flesh is created, His animating spirit (soul) is created but His identity, His essence is God. How God did it we don’t know, but Scripture is clear:

Philippians 2 *
6* Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man.

I’m saying that Christians have done just that.

Nope.

You hit the nail on the head, it is a description of the authority they had over the people, not a statement about their deity. Same with Jesus.

As I said, if you read it in context without trying to insinuate your beliefs into it, it is clear. But you have not done that. It is important to you to believe that Jesus is not God. Therefore you have the Scriptures saying what you believe. But the context is clear as shown by the response of the people who surrounded Jesus.

Sincerely,

De Maria.

 

[inJESUS]

Not reincarnated. The child’s flesh was resurrected by God and placed into Mary, God recreated Jesus from the dust – bones – of the child, as the Quran implies.

where does the Quran imply this?

God dwelled in Jesus and Jesus became the Word of God on earth,

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Not the same thing. Jesus said He is the Son of God, spoke of God as His Father and said He is from Heaven. His use of the phrase “I AM” in reference to Himself is also a clue. In addition, the Jews who killed the prophets did not kill them for blasphemy but accused them of being false prophets because they did not want to hear what God had to say through them. But none were killed for claiming to be God. Yet that is precisely why Jesus was killed.

Romans 8:14-15 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

If I do all this I have every right to call myself Son of God too. Does it mean I claim to be a deity? Absolutely not.

The I AM discourse of John 8 was about Jesus being as Melchizedek in relation to Abraham. Yes he was saying he was greater than Abraham as a Melchizedek priest, but he wasn’t saying he was God. Saying he was greater than Abraham was enough reason to want to kill him.

Hebrews 7:4 Now consider how great this man was (Mslechizedek), unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

And Jesus said:

John 8:54-55 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Compare the honor:

Hebrews 5:4-6 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

At His conception. As are all human spirits.

No.

That is not the Catholic Teaching.

Ok so far, Jesus came into being when he was conceived, as a human.

No. God dwells in all of us as He dwelt in Moses and the other prophets. We are temples of the Holy Spirit.

However, Jesus is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.

Here’s the contradiction, if Trinity was always God eternally, yet you admit Jesus didn’t come into being until he was conceived, now you are saying Jesus was always there eternally as part of the three of God. Which is it?

Put it like this, its a mystery. But all is possible with God…

It’s only a mystery because you created a needless contradiction with your doctrine.

God knit a child in Mary’s womb. Then He united Himself with that child and named Him Jesus. His flesh is created, His animating spirit (soul) is created but His identity, His essence is God. How God did it we don’t know, but Scripture is clear:

Then you are just disregarding the human identity of Jesus as a man in favor of Jesus as a God. Rather than just saying God created Jesus like Adam and dwelled in him and gave a lot of power, then it all makes sense and there is no mystery or confusion to Jews or Muslims who might then be more inclined to believe the New Testament and see all the truths in it that Jesus brings as a servant of God.

 

[inJESUS]

Ok so far, Jesus came into being when he was conceived, as a human.

no, Jesus existed always as the eternal Word of God. You are talking about the second nature He took which does not negate the divine nature.
.

Then you are just disregarding the human identity of Jesus as a man in favor of Jesus as a God. Rather than just saying God created Jesus like Adam and dwelled in him and gave a lot of power, then it all makes sense and there is no mystery or confusion to Jews or Muslims

 

[inJESUS]

going back to our topic since the divinity of Jesus deserves another thread.

Joseph , the husband of Mary, was a son of David:

Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife.

David is not the direct biological father of Joseph, but Joseph is an offspring of David.Jesus could have been the son of Joseph, son of David, if Mary and Joseph had sexual union, and He would be legally called “from the seed of David” or “offspring of David” and the promise will be fulfilled.

 

[inJESUS]

. That’s why what Nicodemus said is mentioned, how can a man die and be born through the womb twice?

because he misundrstood what Jesus was saying and Jesus corrected this wrong interpretation :

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

“Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

the passage has to do with spiritual rebirth on earth, not physical.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

no, Jesus existed always as the eternal Word of God. You are talking about the second nature He took which does not negate the divine nature.

Jesus is the name of the created human spirit and man. God’s spirit and word which always existed went to dwell in that man forever, so Jesus became like God, as Moses did. But not God. God is still God which existed eternally, Jesus still a human servant with a human spirit that obeys God.

As I’ve said before it all comes out in the wash for me. But that’s because I can understand it in a way that a lot of Muslims and Jews can’t because they see that on one hand Jesus exists eternally, on another he is created by God, so none of it makes sense and they don’t buy the “mystery” business. So they throw it all out.