To Planten or any other Muslim

[FaithofAbraham]

Dear FoA,

Matthew and Luke did. Both writers clearly stated that Jesus was not a decendent of Joseph. When Luke said in Luke 3:23-38 he carefully put “(as was supposed)”. I got it from the KJV. Matthew wrote his gospel around the 70’s AD, (somebody argued even earlier). Jesus himself never said publicly “Hey you guys, I am God, worship me” as Planten would like to see in the bible.

They said he was like Melchizedek. But Melchizedek was a priest of God. There was God, then there was Melchizedek.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

If so much was said about Jesus that caused him to be sent to the cross, why not just come out and say he is God too, if he really was? As I’ve said all along there is just confusion that Jesus is God, when really God dwelled in a man called Jesus and Jesus became as God over all humanity.

It doesn’t change his power or authority. It just clarifies things, and maybe enough so more Muslims can open their hearts to him, and more Jews can even accept him at all.

 

[swariffin]

They said he was like Melchizedek. But Melchizedek was a priest of God. There was God, then there was Melchizedek.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

If so much was said about Jesus that caused him to be sent to the cross, why not just come out and say he is God too, if he really was? As I’ve said all along there is just confusion that Jesus is God, when really God dwelled in a man called Jesus and Jesus became as God over all humanity.

It doesn’t change his power or authority. It just clarifies things, and maybe enough so more Muslims can open their hearts to him, and more Jews can even accept him at all.

Dear FoA,

The most important things for us, human, that Jesus was the only one who knows perfectly what God’s plan was/is/will be. Such plan was revealed to human bits by bits in accordance to the capacity of humankind to accept it. God’s plan is God’s plan, and can not be suited to whatever human culture could comprehend. God’s plan was not negotiable nor differs with respect to each of human different civilization.

I am not saying that by differing to me that you cannot be saved, or the vice versa. God’s plan is one and for all. What God would like to see from us, is the result that each of us yields before God’s eyes. God’s will not judge us based on our religion or theological thinking. Of course, God knows that His revelation could be interpreted differently by humans, but the result must be the same. We, human, should (1) love God on top of other things with all of our might, our mind, and our ability, and (2) love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Those 2 must be obeyed simultaneously.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Dear FoA,

The most important things for us, human, that Jesus was the only one who knows perfectly what God’s plan was/is/will be.

Jesus said only God knew this:

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 

[planten]

I see. But there are many ways in which Elizabeth could be Mary’s kin without requiring Mary to be a Levite. The word used to describe their relationship is “kin”. Since intermarriage between the tribes was not unknown,
Aaron himself married a woman from the tribe of Judah,
one of their relavies may have intermarried giving them kinship.

Tradition tells us that Mary is the only daughter of St. Joakim and Anna. But we know that the other Mary, Mary of Alphaeus, is also related to Mary as she is called her sister. It could be that Mary of Alphaeus is somehow the connection between Elizabeth and Mary by either blood or marriage. Alphaeus is thought to be a Levite because he is mentioned as the father of Levi. Now since people were usually named after family members, it may be that both Marys’ are named after a family member in common. That would make Alphaeus married to a Davidic wife, the same as Aaron his predecessor.

As I mentioned before, we are not people of the Book. We are people of the Word of God in Sacred Tradition and Scripture.

Sacred Tradition tells us that Mary is of Davidic descent. Although we don’t know for certain how Elizabeth, a Levite, came to be her kin.

Yes, but I put no creedance in the Quran whatsoever. The Quran assumes that Mary the mother of Jesus is the same as Maryam the sister of Moses. Yet the two women were separated by centuries.

Sincerely,

De Maria

There is too much “may be” in the above post. So it is not useful information. There is too much speculation and supposition. The Quran has much more power over the bible and gives correct / true information even about the Jewish / christian matters.

The birth of Mary the mother is described in Quran and not in bible NT. That is a weakness of the bible. She was a levite or not. But according to Quran, she was attached (given up) to the temple for service to God, in the temple. She lived there as long as she did not have the menses.
It was due to the nature of her work/ duties in the temple that in the Quran she was described as the sister of Aaron. Not that she was the real sister of Aaron. Please try to understand the superior language of the Quran.

 

[Booklover]

There is too much “may be” in the above post. So it is not useful information. There is too much speculation and supposition. The Quran has much more power over the bible and gives correct / true information even about the Jewish / christian matters.

The birth of Mary the mother is described in Quran and not in bible NT. That is a weakness of the bible. She was a levite or not. But according to Quran, she was attached (given up) to the temple for service to God, in the temple. She lived there as long as she did not have the menses.
It was due to the nature of her work/ duties in the temple that in the Quran she was described as the sister of Aaron. Not that she was the real sister of Aaron. Please try to understand the superior language of the Quran.

How typical of a “superior” Muslim!

See here.

“Muslims offend you all day long, especially when addressing Christians, and they don’t even shy from doing it publicly and openly. They give it to you straight in the face without having the slightest consideration to your feelings.” How true!

Vickie

 

[inJESUS]

So,

1-if we cannot prove beyond a doubt that Mary is not from David’s lineage, there is no need for further wide imagination that opposes scriptures.

2- Jesus is the creator, not a creature. He cannot be created by David.

Now, could Jesus be from David’s lineage without this having to do with biology?Jesus is from David’s Kingly lineage, Christ must reign on David’s “throne”, not sperm lineage…“The days are coming,” declares the LORD , "when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, **a King **who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land.

In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness. (Jer.23).

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. (John. 15:5). It does not mean that we are the descendants of Jesus’ seed but spritually we are called His branches.

Jer. 33:15 “In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch of David to spring forth; and He shall execute justice and righteousness on the earth.”

Zech. 6:12-13 “Then say to him, `Thus says the LORD of hosts,” Behold, a man whose name is Branch,(John 15:5) for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD. **Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne. **Thus, **He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices.’” **

yet we know that:

“But Solomon built a house for him.**Yet **the Most High does not dwell in houses made by human hands.”

the one who built God’s house was Jesus, The Word, in His body, " For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form"…His body is the temple of God and He is ominipresent, because God is not limited to stones built by men; He is omnipresent. When millions pray in churches, all of them are in God’s House because He is Omnipresent.

“Your house and your kingdom shall endure forever before me; your throne shall stand firm forever.’”

what happened to Davidic thrones historically? did they endure? “And the house of Israel will not again defile My holy name, neither they nor their kings, by their harlotry and by the corpses of their kings when they die”…there is one throne that endures for ever, because it is not man-made,and is not prone to human sinfulness, it is the throne of Lord Jesus.

when God promised the covenant of Abraham to his son Isaac, it was not based upon “seeds”, because Ishmael was his seed as well. We are gentiles, and we are called sons of Abraham …"“So you see that it **is those of faith **who are sons of Abraham.” yet are we from Abraham’s seed? no. These are mere examples to show Jesus is the righteous branch of David, His King and The King of Kings whose throne is forever and ever.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

So,

1-if we cannot prove beyond a doubt that Mary is not from David’s lineage, there is no need for further wide imagination that opposes scriptures.

2- Jesus is the creator, not a creature. He cannot be created by David.

Now, could Jesus be from David’s lineage without this having to do with biology?

No.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

 

[inJESUS]

The Quran has much more power over the bible and gives correct / true information even about the Jewish / christian matters.

so why is Jesus born to no biological father according to the Quran?

The birth of Mary the mother is described in Quran and not in bible NT.

 

[inJESUS]

No.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

but this is repeating what we already know. Paul, who believed Jesus is David’s creator, cannot be possibly saying that David created Jesus…so this already opposes your understanding of the passage…Paul declares an early confession that proclaims Jesus’ sonship as messianic descendant of David . But does descendant necessarily involve biology?we are Abraham’s sons, yet are we biologically his sons? in the light of my previous reply and quotes, i’d say no. “Sons of”, “branch of”, “lineage of” are not always meant biologically so you cannot insist they mean biologically when the Bible also uses them symbolically.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

but this is repeating what we already know. Paul, who believed Jesus is David’s creator, cannot be possibly saying that David created Jesus…so this already opposes your understanding of the passage…Paul declares an early confession that proclaims Jesus’ sonship as messianic descendant of David . But does descendant necessarily involve biology?we are Abraham’s sons, yet are we biologically his sons? in the light of my previous reply and quotes, i’d say no. “Sons of”, “branch of”, “lineage of” are not always meant biologically so you cannot insist they mean biologically when the Bible also uses them symbolically.

“According to the flesh” makes it clear that Jesus is not just “spiritually aligned” with David if that’s what you mean. He came from David’s flesh. That was also the promise of Messiah to David, a king of his own seed.

So what does it matter if he came from David’s flesh as his own son, or as his grandson many generations down through Mary’s flesh?

In your view it would still be Jesus creating David/Mary, and also being created from David/Mary flesh. All I am doing is taking Mary out of the equation, it doesn’t change the need for flesh.

 

[inJESUS]

“According to the flesh” makes it clear that Jesus is not just “spiritually aligned” with David if that’s what you mean.

it could be “in humanity”. According to the flesh does not mean “my biological father”.

He came from David’s flesh.

 

[planten]

How typical of a “superior” Muslim!

See here.

“Muslims offend you all day long, especially when addressing Christians, and they don’t even shy from doing it publicly and openly. They give it to you straight in the face without having the slightest consideration to your feelings.” How true!

Vickie

I did not offend any one. Please See my post. When a wrong meaning was being given to a few words of the Quran and it was intended to provethat Quran was wrong, I tried to give the right explanation. There is nothing wrong with that ! There is no offence in that.

 

[swariffin]

Jesus said only God knew this:

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Jesus said so, because the information of the exact time asked was the sole priviledge of God, and not supposed to be shared to any other entity/party. Since God will not reveal that kind of information, then Jesus as the word of God was unable to say so. Just like when I do not want to say anything, then my mouth is shut, no word will come out from my mouth. So, when God does not want to say anything, then there will be no word from him, then there will be no word from Jesus accordingly.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Jesus said so, because the information of the exact time asked was the sole priviledge of God, and not supposed to be shared to any other entity/party. Since God will not reveal that kind of information, then Jesus as the word of God was unable to say so. Just like when I do not want to say anything, then my mouth is shut, no word will come out from my mouth. So, when God does not want to say anything, then there will be no word from him, then there will be no word from Jesus accordingly.

“my Father only” So did only the Father know, or the Son too?

 

[swariffin]

I did not offend any one. Please See my post. When a wrong meaning was being given to a few words of the Quran and it was intended to provethat Quran was wrong, I tried to give the right explanation. There is nothing wrong with that ! There is no offence in that.

Dear Planten,

I would like to make it clear. For whatever you said in this forum, I do not feel offended. Perhaps somebody does, but I don’t. You have at least one person who would like to understand you. It does not mean that I will be in agreement with you, but at least I will listen to you objectively. Don’t worry, keep on posting.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

lineage , not sperm. Lineage by faith, not sperm. Spiritual lineage, not sperm. If you still insist it is about seeds, then find any other solution that does NOT contradict Jesus being the Creator. First respect what the NT clearly says, then use your imagination. You cannot use imagination by contradicting what the NT says and then expect us to consider your views.

 

[swariffin]

“my Father only” So did only the Father know, or the Son too?

Dear FoA,

Two ways to answer your question: First, as I said before, it was another parable from Jesus for him not to reveal a priviledge information of God. He did that to emphasize that such exact time (about the end of time) was the sole decision of God. Jesus said so, in the situation that he was teaching his deciples in the context of the advise for the deciples to always be in the state of readiness. Jesus knew how the end of time happens and he warned his deciples to be ready, beyond human logic of what was written in Matthew 24:36. Keep in mind, that we believe that with respect to human being, Jesus is also God, eventhough it does not mean that Jesus exactly equal to God the Father.

Jesus said so, also in the context that human must always be ready. Don’t worry…be ready (perhaps be happy too). Jesus as he is also a perfect human, acknowledged that the exact time for the end of the world is indeed a sole priviledge of God. And, Jesus gave the example to his deciples as a human being, of how to be ready for the end of the world. It does not mean that Jesus was lying. As a teacher, Jesus must give the example of complete surrender to God’s will. The importance of Jesus word is the readiness that we human being must be to anticipate the end of time, not the exact time it will be.

Second, Jesus at that point of time may not know. But at this current time (January 16th 2008) He knows already. When Jesus was ascended into heaven, and seated at the right hand of the Father, all he had to do just turn his head left and ask the question to God the Father.

 

[planten]

No.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Even though I do not believe any Roman and I do not like to go beyond the four gospels, I seem to like the above quote which is meaningful indication that jesus was indeed the son of david, the king by the flesh. So that is why jesus was called a prince.

 

[planten]

it could be “in humanity”. According to the flesh does not mean “my biological father”.

 

[inJESUS]

David’s child is created, and is created the normal way, from the seed of a man and egg of a woman. The Word is not created.

If you say God’s Word took on a human body, spirit, and nature, why not from David’s resurrected child?

1- the Word does not need a dead child to come to earth. It is on you to prove the Word must find some dead body and cannot do it otherwise.

2- David’s son is a creature. The Word is the Creator. Mary is a creature. The Word is the Creator. The Word came through a human, was not created by a human, did not need the seeds of humans, did not wait for some biological chemistry to create Him. Neither David nor Mary created the Creator, He created both.

3- Jesus said He is David’s Lord, not his son.

4- Mary could fit the description of David’s seed.

5- In the NT, the connection is made between Jesus and David, not Jesus and a David’s child. Jesus is the Kingly Branch of David…that is why there are connected and similar events in their lives…we know nothing of the dead child. Arguing that Jesus is the reincarnation of David, though its absurd and opposes scriptures, yet it’s even better than Jesus being the dead son of David unless David and his son are the same person. In other words, the prophecy is about David’s throne, not his descendants’ thrones that fell apart…David’s throne will live forever through Jesus, the Davidic Messianic King, the second David, whose throne endures for ever because He is God, not a sinful king, unlike earthly thrones that “defiled God’s name” and “ended with Kings’ dead corpses” as God says. Not only Jesus is the second David , He is the Second Moses and the second Abraham and the second Adam…He makes all their “thrones” endure through Him their saviour, their Lord and God.

these suffice…these are scriptures. Your interpretations, further to being non scriptural, they oppose scripture…