To Protestants: Why aren't you Catholic?

[kujo313]

How did sola scriptura exist without an official bible?

Well, there WAS scrolls in the temples. Carefully copied. If one word was not copied right, it was scratched off and rewritten. But if the name of God was not copied right, the whole thing was thrown out and all was started over.

Luke 4:16-17

So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah.

The Gospel spread with the disciples. It was written to tell more people of the Good News.

I’d like to say that Billy and Franklin Graham are the closest thing today. Preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ with boldness and authority. They preach that you must go through the cross, you must be born again. They will tell you that there is only One that should be worshipped and adored.

 

[Mickey]

kujo313:

How did sola scriptura exist without an official bible?

Well, there WAS scrolls in the temples. Carefully copied. If one word was not copied right, it was scratched off and rewritten. But if the name of God was not copied right, the whole thing was thrown out and all was started over.

Bits and pieces of the NT were scattered about. Many spurious Gospels and Epistles were in circulation. The illiteracy rate was high.

The people were taught mainly through oral teaching–Tradition passed down from the Apostles to their successors–Sacred Tradition.
Is this ringing a bell for you? smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/12/12_5_25.gif

 

[kujo313]

Mickey:

Bits and pieces of the NT were scattered about. Many spurious Gospels and Epistles were in circulation. The illiteracy rate was high.

The people were taught mainly through oral teaching–Tradition passed down from the Apostles to their successors–Sacred Tradition.
Is this ringing a bell for you? smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/12/12_5_25.gif

Yep. Rings a bell. I also know that the Catholic church was kinda ticked at Martin Luther when the collection plate wasn’t as full as it was used to be.
Today, with the news that some Catholic churches are being closed due to money shortages and smaller congregations, mega-churches are growing all over.
Both preach the Gospel. Some people just can’t sit still in church. At one time, I wanted to dance like King David did: with all his might. Can’t do that in a Catholic church. CAN do that in some protestant churches.

 

[St.Eric]

kujo313:

Yep. Rings a bell. I also know that the Catholic church was kinda ticked at Martin Luther when the collection plate wasn’t as full as it was used to be.
Today, with the news that some Catholic churches are being closed due to money shortages and smaller congregations, mega-churches are growing all over.
Both preach the Gospel. Some people just can’t sit still in church. At one time, I wanted to dance like King David did: with all his might. Can’t do that in a Catholic church. CAN do that in some protestant churches.

Nice evasion of the topic and the point made previously.

 

[Mickey]

kujo313:

Yep. Rings a bell. I also know that the Catholic church was kinda ticked at Martin Luther when the collection plate wasn’t as full as it was used to be.

Oh! Is that what all the fuss was about!?!

kujo313:

Both preach the Gospel. Some people just can’t sit still in church. At one time, I wanted to dance like King David did: with all his might. Can’t do that in a Catholic church. CAN do that in some protestant churches.

If the Ark of the Covenant was in my presence, I’d be dancing also. But alas, the virgin Mary became the Ark of the New Covenant and like David’s rejoicing, John the baptist leapt in the womb of Elizabeth at the presence of the Savior. And so I prefer to worship our Savior in reverence and quietude–reflecting and meditating on His glorious mysteries. And how best can I do this? In the Church founded by Jesus Christ! The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church!

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

I’d like to say that Billy and Franklin Graham are the closest thing today. Preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ with boldness and authority. They preach that you must go through the cross, you must be born again. They will tell you that there is only One that should be worshipped and adored.

Can you please tell us what “born again” means to you?

When Jesus tells us “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3), he is referring to baptism. We are “born again” through the transformation that takes place in baptism.

If you mean that the Grahams are telling you that Christ was saying “born again” to refer to the process of going to a Billy Graham crusade, listening to the preacher speak, announcing that you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior during an “altar call” and once the sinner’s prayer has been said, the preacher announces you have been “saved” or “born again”, well then what the Grahams are telling you is not biblical.

 

[onesimplemind]

kujo313:

How did sola scriptura exist without an official bible?

Well, there WAS scrolls in the temples. Carefully copied. If one word was not copied right, it was scratched off and rewritten. But if the name of God was not copied right, the whole thing was thrown out and all was started over.

Luke 4:16-17

So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah.

The Gospel spread with the disciples. It was written to tell more people of the Good News.

I’d like to say that Billy and Franklin Graham are the closest thing today. Preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ with boldness and authority. They preach that you must go through the cross, you must be born again. They will tell you that there is only One that should be worshipped and adored.

Is that the best response you can give me?

Did Cyprain, Cyril, Ignatious of Antioch, Athanasius, Irenaeus (all Saints by the way so you can infer what Church they belonged to) have the New Testament handed to them?

It would be interesting to compare and contrast the beliefs of Billy and Franklin Graham and you for that matter, to a patristic Christian, Igantius of Antioch (35-107 a.d.)

 

[kujo313]

Eden:

Can you please tell us what “born again” means to you?

When Jesus tells us “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3), he is referring to baptism. We are “born again” through the transformation that takes place in baptism.

If you mean that the Grahams are telling you that Christ was saying “born again” to refer to the process of going to a Billy Graham crusade, listening to the preacher speak, announcing that you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior during an “altar call” and once the sinner’s prayer has been said, the preacher announces you have been “saved” or “born again”, well then what the Grahams are telling you is not biblical.

“Born again”. Born in the Spirit. To live in the Spirit. Jesus said that God is Spirit so we have to worship Him in Spirit and truth. When the Holy Spirit poured into the upper room on Pentecost, the people outside thought that they was drunk by the way they was acting. Yet, all inside was worshipping God as the Holy Spirit gave them utterance.
Never in my Catholic experience have I seen such a thing. As a matter of fact, it was just a couple of years ago when the Vatican made a booklet about being devil posessed. It included speaking in unknown tongues and perfoming great feats of strength.

I guess whoever came up with that idea never read 1 Corinthians 12:10, 28, 30; 13:1; 14:2, 4, 5, 6, 9, 13, 14 (For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.), 18, 20-23, 26, 27, 39.

Secondly, was Samson demon posessed? Of course not.

If you don’t know about being born of the Spirit, then you have a whole lot to learn.

John 3
The New Birth

1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he **cannot ** see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?
11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.

I hear of some non-Pentecostal churches having a “Pentecostal movement”. I’m not saying to change churches or religions, but look into it.

 

[Eden]

John 3:5 is referring to baptism.

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

As a matter of fact, it was just a couple of years ago when the Vatican made a booklet about being devil posessed. It included speaking in unknown tongues and perfoming great feats of strength.

I take it you don’t believe someone can be possessed by the devil.

 

[kujo313]

onesimplemind:

Is that the best response you can give me?

Did Cyprain, Cyril, Ignatious of Antioch, Athanasius, Irenaeus (all Saints by the way so you can infer what Church they belonged to) have the New Testament handed to them?

It would be interesting to compare and contrast the beliefs of Billy and Franklin Graham and you for that matter, to a patristic Christian, Igantius of Antioch (35-107 a.d.)

Actually, Igantius said (2:2)

“and as for
the invisible things, pray thou that they may be
revealed unto thee; that thou mayest be lacking in
nothing, but mayest abound in every spiritual gift.”

I never, ever learned of Spiritual Gifts in the Catholic church.

Sounds to me that Iggy would’ve had an altar call, too.

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

Sounds to me that Iggy would’ve had an altar call, too.

There was no such thing in the 2nd century.

 

[kujo313]

Eden:

There was no such thing in the 2nd century.

Why not? There was such a thing in the 1st century. If Peter told the people to “repent and be baptized”, what would that mean to you? Would it mean that they would have to FIRST go through all the ceremonies and rituals of today’s Catholic religion?

Sounds to me as if they all did a 180 degree turn from their sins and got baptized.

John 8: 10-12

10 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, “Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?”
11 She said, “No one, Lord.”
And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”

“Don’t do it anymore”. Of course I bet that the woman got baptized after that.

 

[kujo313]

Eden:

I take it you don’t believe someone can be possessed by the devil.

I believe in demon possession. I just believe that if you are speaking in the tongues of angels, you are not demon possessed. You can be attacked by demons, but not possessed unless you give yourself up.
Comforting to know that when Satan fell from grace that one third of the angels fell with him. That would leave TWO THIRDS left. Demons are out-numbered 2-1.

(no one can speak of the tongues of angels unless they are filled with the Holy Spirit)

 

[flameburns623]

Eden:

Can you please tell us what “born again” means to you?

When Jesus tells us “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3), he is referring to baptism. We are “born again” through the transformation that takes place in baptism.

If you mean that the Grahams are telling you that Christ was saying “born again” to refer to the process of going to a Billy Graham crusade, listening to the preacher speak, announcing that you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior during an “altar call” and once the sinner’s prayer has been said, the preacher announces you have been “saved” or “born again”, well then what the Grahams are telling you is not biblical.

In all fairness, many Protestants understand these things rather differently. Water is frequently seen as a symbol of the Holy Spirit, and preaching of the Gospel is often seen as having sanctifying power, as in Ephesians 5:

. . . .Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

So that through the working of the Holy Ghost upon the hearts and minds of individuals, and through their hearing of the proclamation of the Word of God, souls are drawn to Christ and enabled to accept the Gospel unto salvation. The Book of Acts illustrates this process rather nicely: thousands of souls were added on several occaisions, not through extensive catechesis culminating in a highly-formalized ritual of reception on Easter Sunday but rather spontaneously and intantaneously.

In fact, I’m not certain I am aware of any examples of converts to the NT Church being extensively catechized prior to being received into the Church. The process seems to have been to preach a message, which the hearer(s) accept by some sort of verbal assent, followed in many or most cases by immediate baptism, and then a processes of catechesis. This, I suspect, is why many Protestants see revivalistic preaching such as that of Rev. Dr. Billy Graham to be more Biblical than the process by which the RCC and many other liturgical churches receive members.

The only thing I would note is that very few revivalists, outside of the Campbellite tradition, make it a practice to promptly baptise those who offer forth a profession of faith. Most put off the act of baptism for weeks or months, sometimes for years.

 

[kujo313]

flameburns623:

In all fairness, many Protestants understand these things rather differently. Water is frequently seen as a symbol of the Holy Spirit, and preaching of the Gospel is often seen as having sanctifying power, as in Ephesians 5:

. . . .Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

So that through the working of the Holy Ghost upon the hearts and minds of individuals, and through their hearing of the proclamation of the Word of God, souls are drawn to Christ and enabled to accept the Gospel unto salvation. The Book of Acts illustrates this process rather nicely: thousands of souls were added on several occaisions, not through extensive catechesis culminating in a highly-formalized ritual of reception on Easter Sunday but rather spontaneously and intantaneously.

In fact, I’m not certain I am aware of any examples of converts to the NT Church being extensively catechized prior to being received into the Church. The process seems to have been to preach a message, which the hearer(s) accept by some sort of verbal assent, followed in many or most cases by immediate baptism, and then a processes of catechesis. This, I suspect, is why many Protestants see revivalistic preaching such as that of Rev. Dr. Billy Graham to be more Biblical than the process by which the RCC and many other liturgical churches receive members.

The only thing I would note is that very few revivalists, outside of the Campbellite tradition, make it a practice to promptly baptise those who offer forth a profession of faith. Most put off the act of baptism for weeks or months, sometimes for years.

John 3:7-8

"Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

 

[onesimplemind]

kujo313:

Actually, Igantius said (2:2)

“and as for
the invisible things, pray thou that they may be
revealed unto thee; that thou mayest be lacking in
nothing, but mayest abound in every spiritual gift.”

I never, ever learned of Spiritual Gifts in the Catholic church.

Sounds to me that Iggy would’ve had an altar call, too.

Be very careful when you qoute Ignatius

“From Eucharist and prayer they hold aloof, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father in His loving-kindness raised from the dead. And so, those who question the gift of God perish in their contentiousness. It would be better for them to have love, so as to share in the resurrection. It is proper, therefore, to avoid associating with such people and not to speak about them either in private or in public, but to study the Prophets attentively and, especially, the Gospel, in which the Passion is revealed to us and the Resurrection shown in its fulfillment. Shun division as the beginning of evil.”

“You must all follow the lead of the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed that of the Father; follow the presbytery as you would the Apostles; reverence the deacons as you would God’s commandment. Let no one do anything touching the Church, apart from the bishop. Let that celebration of the Eucharist be considered valid which is held under the bishop or anyone to whom he has committed it. Where the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not permitted without authorization from the bishop either to baptize or to hold an agape; but whatever he approves is also pleasing to God. Thus everything you do will be proof against danger and valid.” -Ignatius letter to the Smyrneans

I highly doubt you have the same beliefs as Igantius so you might want to pick someone else to quote.

I highly doubt you share the same beliefs as the Apostles as well.

And with you quoting people that obviously don’t share your beliefs, I highly doubt you know what you are talking about.

 

[velimir]

hi
HUMANISM and RATIONALISM are the main culprit here 500 years of it plus we live in a anti-Catholic country everywhere i turn i always hear anti Catholic talk its the sad truth
if more people read how the Saints lived their lives it woulds be much easier to become Catholic or to visited a incorrupted saint’s body like sown here livingmiracles.net/Incorrupt.html
God Bless JESUS i TRUST in YOU

 

[kujo313]

. Let no one do anything touching the Church, apart from the bishop.

I’ll just repost that for space reasons.

Sounds to me that if you are not a bishop in your religion, you should be just a simple drone. How can a bishop tell you how to use your God-given Spiritual Gifts?

Is it the eucharist, itself (idolatry) or what it stands for?

I know you’ll tell me YOUR interpretation or of somebody who lived after the disciples, so I just walked into that one.

 

[JSmitty2005]

kujo313:

Is it the eucharist, itself (idolatry) or what it stands for?

Eucharistic adoration would only be idolatry if the Eucharist were merely bread, but since it is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, then we are really worshipping the True God.