To Protestants: Why aren't you Catholic?

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kujo313:
I
(no one can speak of the tongues of angels unless they are filled with the Holy Spirit)
Can you please tell me how you know that no one can speak in tongues unless they are filled with the Holy Spirit. I noticed you added the words “of the angels” to the sentence which is not in the original sentence you provided about the Pope.

So, do you believe people who are possessed by the devil could display speaking in tongues?
 
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flameburns623:
In all fairness, many Protestants understand these things rather differently. Water is frequently seen as a symbol of the Holy Spirit, and preaching of the Gospel is often seen as having sanctifying power, as in Ephesians 5:
John 3:5 is referring to baptism, not the preaching of the Word of God. Protestants who believe that baptism is just a symbol and does not actually change the soul deny that Jesus is referring to baptism to be “born again”.

This is reinforced by these (Rom. 6:3-4, Col. 2:12-13, Titus 3:5). There is not one early Church Father who says that John 3:5 refers to anything other than baptism. You will not one early Church Father describing an altar call. Here are a few:

JUSTIN MARTYR

“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

IRENAEUS

“‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’” (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).

TERTULLIAN

“[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’” (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).
 
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kujo313:
John 3:7-8

"Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Again, this is referring to baptism, not to hearing the Word of God and declaring Christ your Lord and Savior.
 
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Eden:
Again, this is referring to baptism, not to hearing the Word of God and declaring Christ your Lord and Savior.
You are correct, however, kujo will never come to such a conclusion because he uses the Scriptures for eisegesis rather than exegesis.
 
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kujo313:
. Let no one do anything touching the Church, apart from the bishop.

I’ll just repost that for space reasons.

Sounds to me that if you are not a bishop in your religion, you should be just a simple drone. How can a bishop tell you how to use your God-given Spiritual Gifts?
Have you heard of the word “charism”?
Is it the eucharist, itself (idolatry) or what it stands for?
Someone already said this but it must be emphasized. How in the world is worshipping Christ idolatry?
 
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kujo313:
(no one can speak of the tongues of angels unless they are filled with the Holy Spirit)
Pentecost Glossolalia

Fifty days after the Resurrection, while the disciples were gathered together, the Holy Spirit descended upon them and they began to speak in other languages. Jews from all over the civilised world who were gathered in Jerusalem for the religious holiday stood in amazement as they heard the disciples preaching in their own particular language and dialect.

Corinthian Glossolalia
Whilst in the Pentecost form of Glossolalia people of the same language could understand one another, Corinthian Glossolalia is different. St Paul who had founded the Church of Corinth, found it necessary to respond to some of their problems, i.e., division of authority, moral and ethical problems, the Eucharist, the issue of death and resurrection and how the Gifts of the Holy Spirit operated.

In chapter 12, St. Paul lists nine of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, i.e., knowledge, wisdom, spirit, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, speaking in tongues and interpreting what another says when he speaks in tongues. Specifically, Corinthian Glossolalia was an activity of the Holy Spirit coming upon a person and compelling him to external expressions directed to God, but not understood by others. In Pentecost Glossolalia, while speaking in several different tongues, both the speaker and the listener understood what was uttered. The Glossolalia manifested in Corinth was the utterance of words, phrases, sentences, etc., intelligible to God but not to the person uttering them. What was uttered needed to be interpreted by another who had the gift of interpretation. When the person spoke, his soul became passive and his understanding became inactive, while the words or sounds were prayer and praise, they were not clear in meaning and gave the impression of something mysterious.

There is no question - the Church of Corinth had Glossolalia; St. Paul attests to that and makes mention of it. But he also cautions the Corinthian Christians about excessive use; especially to the exclusion of the other more important gifts.

It appears St. Paul was questioned about the working of the Holy Spirit through the Gifts. The Corinthians at that time were living under the influence of pagan customs, so it was only natural that they would find certain similarities more familiar and appealing. Thus the Corinthians put more stress on certain gifts like glossolalia. No doubt the Apostle was concerned that their ties and memories of the old life should be reason enough to regulate the employment of Glossolalia. In Chapter 14, he says:

“I would like for all of you to speak in strange tongues; but I would rather that you had the gift of proclaiming God’s message. For the person who proclaims God’s message is of greater value than the one who speaks in strange tongues – unless there is someone who can explain what he says, so the whole Church may be edified. So when I come to you, my brethren, what use will I be to you if I speak in strange tongues? Not a bit, unless I bring to you some revelation from God or some knowledge or some inspired message or some teaching,”

(continued)


 
The Lord God set out to make new creations through the saving grace of His Son and implemented into perfection through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit endowed men and women with many gifts in order to bring this about. One of the gifts during the New Testament times was Glossolalia.

But, St. Paul indicates later in Chapter 14 that Glossolalia should be minimised and understood preaching maximised. Justin Martyr, a prolific mid century writer lists several kinds of gifts but does not mention Glossolalia. St John Chrysostom wrote numerous homilies on Books of the New Testament during the fourth century but does not appear to make mention of Glossolalia as noted in First Corinthians. Many Christian writers,certainly the mystics wrote about what they perceived eternal life with Christ to be, of how the Holy Spirit spoke to them and through them, to others. But theirs was always understood, intelligible, comprehensible communication. Perhaps they could not describe in earthly and material frames of reference what they saw and experienced, but they were conscious and fully aware of what was happening. They were not in some state of senselessness. Even the monks on Mount Athos who experience divine communication and have reached a plateau of holiness do not speak in tongues.

What then is the [orthodox] Christian perspective on Glossolalia? The [orthodox] Christian viewpoint on Glossolalia is based on St. Paul’s words in chapter fourteen of the same Epistle:

“I thank God that I speak in strange tongues much more than any of you. But in Church worship I would rather speak five words that can be understood, in order to teach others, than speak thousands of words in strange tongues.” (verses 18-19)

In chapter thirteen, St Paul says,

“Set your hearts, then, on the more important gifts. Best of all, however, is the following way.”

Then St. Paul proceeds and shares with his readership the greatest gift of all - Love!

The [Catholic] and Orthodox Church does not rule out Glossolalia. She simply does not regard it as one of the important ones. Better to “speak five words that can be understood…than speak thousands of words in strange tongues.” This is the [orthodox] Christian viewpoint.

Adapted from an essay by Fr. G. Nicozisin



 
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kujo313:
I know you’ll tell me YOUR interpretation or of somebody who lived after the disciples, so I just walked into that one.
I will tell you that its not MY interpretation but the interpretation of a 2000 year old organization backed up with the context of history with over a billion followers. That 2000 year old organization is THE oldest existing institution of learning in the western world. That 2000 year old organization is THE only organization that existed in its present form since the Age of the Roman Empire.

Which interpretation should I go with, the interpretation of a 2000 year old organization that can claim credit to being around during Patristic times, or yours?

Yes you just walked into that one too.
 
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kujo313:
Is it the eucharist, itself (idolatry) or what it stands for?
Is that consistent with Christian beliefs throughout the ages or did Jesus come back with anyone (except your church) knowing and preach something new?

Or maybe you just made it up.
 
Simply answering the question…

Traditions to be regarded as the Word of God, The Church alone can interpret Scripture. The Pope, not Christ, really the head.Justification not by faith. Sacramental confession to a priest essential. Priestly power of absolution.Superabundant merit of “works” . Purgatory.
The mass a propitiatory sacrifice. Celibacy of the clergy. Worship of angels and saints. Worship of images. The Virgin Mary and the saints mediators.
These are my opinions and from an outsider looking in this is the perception the RC church leaves,I know they can be disected 1 by 1 and explained away by apologist but in the end for me if something looks and feels wrong, it must be wrong.
 
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myfavoritmartin:
Simply answering the question…

Traditions to be regarded as the Word of God, The Church alone can interpret Scripture. The Pope, not Christ, really the head.Justification not by faith. Sacramental confession to a priest essential. Priestly power of absolution.Superabundant merit of “works” . Purgatory.
The mass a propitiatory sacrifice. Celibacy of the clergy. Worship of angels and saints. Worship of images. The Virgin Mary and the saints mediators.
These are my opinions and from an outsider looking in this is the perception the RC church leaves,I know they can be disected 1 by 1 and explained away by apologist but in the end for me if something looks and feels wrong, it must be wrong.
Sorry, can’t let it go:

The Pope is the head (leader) of the Church on earth- Christ is the absolute leader of the Church. The Holy Spirit is the earthly church’s divine guide.

Justification is by faith- just not faith alone. Justification is by GRACE ALONE and includes faith and works resulting from that faith.

Absolution of sins is from the grace of Christ using the Priest as the conduit for that grace.

Purgatory is the APPLICATION of Christ’s saving grace and the final cleansing of a “saved” soul before it enters Heaven, for nothing unclean can enter. Purgatory is not a second chance. If you are damned, Hell is the first and last stop after death.

The Mass is the unbloody Re-Presentation of the crucifixtion on Calavary that continues to pay the price for sins. The sacrifice is forever- Why does the Lamb in revelation appear “as if slain” and not in a glorified state?

Celibacy of the clergy is a disciple and not a dogma of the church.

The worship of angels and saints and Mary is absolutley forbidden. Anyone who worships anything other than the triune God is guilty of idolotry.

The Virgin Mary and the saints are intercessors. Christ is the one Mediator who re-opened Heaven to men. Mary and Saints can intercede on our behalf. You already believe this if you have ever asked another person to pray for you or pray for any other intention. Why would you ask someone to pray (intercede) for you?

Every one of these points is scriptural and I will provide a laundry list if so asked.
 
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St.Eric:
Sorry, can’t let it go:
Can’t let it go, either.

The Pope is the head (leader) of the Church on earth- Christ is the absolute leader of the Church. The Holy Spirit is the earthly church’s divine guide.
Jesus is the unfallible, uncompromising Head of the Church.

Absolution of sins is from the grace of Christ using the Priest as the conduit for that grace.
How about the person that you’ve sinned against? If you have anything against your brother, leave your gift at the altar, make amends, THEN offer your gift.

Purgatory is the APPLICATION of Christ’s saving grace and the final cleansing of a “saved” soul before it enters Heaven, for nothing unclean can enter.

Sounds like the “final rinse” on my washing machine. Simply put, you must be born again.

The Mass is the unbloody Re-Presentation of the crucifixtion on Calavary that continues to pay the price for sins.

You mean “paid”.

Celibacy of the clergy is a disciple and not a dogma of the church.

Let’s see a current priest, bishop or pope get married while in his position.

The worship of angels and saints and Mary is absolutley forbidden. Anyone who worships anything other than the triune God is guilty of idolotry.

“worship”

homage rendered to God which it is sinful (idolatry) to render to any created being (Ex. 34:14; Isa. 2:8). Such worship was refused by Peter (Acts 10:25,26)
and by an angel.
A feeling of profound love and admiration.
1A) The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
1B) The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
2) Ardent devotion; adoration.

Maybe not you, personally, but take an inside look at your religion.
The Virgin Mary and the saints are intercessors. Christ is the one Mediator who re-opened Heaven to men. Mary and Saints can intercede on our behalf. You already believe this if you have ever asked another person to pray for you or pray for any other intention. Why would you ask someone to pray (intercede) for you?

Because another person is proven to be ALIVE. Prayers FOR somebody is ok, but prayers TO somebody other than God is idolatry.

Every one of these points is scriptural and I will provide a laundry list if so asked.
 
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kujo313:
Every one of these points is scriptural and I will provide a laundry list if so asked.
Make sure it doesn’t get caught in your rinse cycle. 😃
 
Paris Blues:
And I want a honest answer too! I don’t want none of the “oh, it’s a freedom of religon!”…yada yada yada…

For Protestants who are NOT anti-Catholic and yet have nothing against the Church, why do you stay Protestant than???:confused:
After reading the responses I can sum up the reasons as follows: Prejudice, bias, and misunderstanding.
 
Robert in SD:
After reading the responses I can sum up the reasons as follows: Prejudice, bias, and misunderstanding.
Not “prejudice”, it’s “been there, done that.”
 
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St.Eric:
Sorry, can’t let it go:

The Pope is the head (leader) of the Church on earth- Christ is the absolute leader of the Church. The Holy Spirit is the earthly church’s divine guide.

Mt 16:18 - upon this rock (Peter) I will build my church
Mt 16;19 - give you keys of the kingdom; power to bind & loose
Lk 22:32 - Peter’s faith will strengthen his brethren
Jn 21:17 - given Christ’s flock as chief shepherd
Mk 16:7 - angel sent to announce Resurrection to Peter
Lk 24:34 - risen Jesus first appeared to Peter
Acts 1:13-26 - headed meeting which elected Matthias
Acts 2:14 - led Apostles in preaching on Pentecost
Acts 2:41 - received first converts
Acts 3:6-7 - performed first miracle after Pentecost
Acts 5:1-11 - inflicted first punishment: Ananias & Saphira
Acts 8:21 - excommunicated first heretic, Simon Magnus
Acts 10:44-46 - received revelation to admit Gentiles into Church
Acts 15:7 - led first council in Jerusalem
Acts 15:19 - pronounces first dogmatic decision
Gal 1:18 - after conversion, Paul visits chief Apostle
*Gal 2:11-14 - I opposed Cephas to his face for his hypocrisy
Peter’s name always heads list of Apostles: Mt 10;14; Mk 3:16-19; Lk 6:14-16; Acts 1:13
“Peter and his companions” Lk 9:32; Mk 16:7
Spoke for Apostles - Mt 18:21; Mk 8:29; Lk 8:45; 12:41; Jn 6:69
Peter’s name occurs 195 times, more than all the rest put together

Justification is by faith- just not faith alone. Justification is by GRACE ALONE and includes faith and works resulting from that faith.

Jam 2:24 - a man is justified by works and not by faith alone
Jam 2:26 - faith without works is dead
Gal 5:6 - only thing that counts is faith working in love
1 Cor 13;2 - faith without love is nothing
Jn 14:15 - if you love me, keep my commandments
Mt 19:16-17 - if you wish to enter into life, keep commandments
1Tim 5:8 he who doesn’t provide for family worse than unbeliever.

Absolution of sins is from the grace of Christ using the Priest as the conduit for that grace.

Mt 9:2-8 Son of Man has authority to forgive sins
Jn 20:23 - whose sins you forgive/retain are forgiven/retained
Jn 20:22 - breathed on them, “receive Holy Spirit” [recall Gn 2:7]
2Cor 5:17-20 - given us the ministry of reconciliation
Jam 5:13-15 - confess your sins to one another
Mt 18:18 - whatever you bind & loose on earth, so it is in heaven
1Jn 5:6 - there is sin that is not deadly

Purgatory is the APPLICATION of Christ’s saving grace and the final cleansing of a “saved” soul before it enters Heaven, for nothing unclean can enter. Purgatory is not a second chance. If you are damned, Hell is the first and last stop after death.

Mt 5:48 - be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect
Heb 12:14 - strive for that holiness without which cannot see God
Jam 3:2 - we all fall short in many respects
Rev 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven
1Jn 5:16-17 - degrees of sins distinguished
Jam 1:14-15 - when sin reaches maturity gives birth to death
2Sam 12:13-14 - David, though forgiven, still punished for his sin
Mt 5:26 - you will not be released until paid last penny
Mt 12:32 - sin against Holy Spirit unforgiven in this age or next
Mt 12:36 - account for every idle word of judgment day
2Macc 12:44-46 - atoned for dead to free them from sin
1Cor 3:15 - suffer loss, but saved as through fire
1Pet 3:18-20; 4:6 - Jesus preached to spirits in prison
2Tim 1:16-18 - Paul prays for dead friend Onesiphorus
1Cor 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people baptizing for the dead

The Mass is the unbloody Re-Presentation of the crucifixtion on Calavary that continues to pay the price for sins. The sacrifice is forever- Why does the Lamb in revelation appear “as if slain” and not in a glorified state?

Jn 6:35-71 - Eucharist promised
Mt 26:26ff (Mk 14:22ff., Lk 22:17ff.) - Eucharist instituted
1Cor 10:16 - Eucharist = participation in Christ’s body & blood
1 Cor 11:23-29 - receiving unworthily his body & blood
Ex 12:8, 46 - Paschal lamb had to be eaten
Jn 1:29 - Jesus called “Lamb of God”
1 Cor 5:7 - Jesus called "paschal lamb who has been sacrificed
Jn 4:31-34; Mt 16;5-12 - Jesus talking symbolically about food
1Cor 2:14-3:4 - explains what “the flesh” means in Jn 6:63
Ps 14:4; Is 9:18-20; Is 49:26; Mic 3:3; 2Sm 23:15-17; Rv 17:6, 16 -
to symbolically eat & drink one’s body & blood = assault

cont…
 
Celibacy of the clergy is a disciple and not a dogma of the church.

Eph 5:21-33 - marriage is good: holy symbol of Christ & church
Mt 19:12 - celibacy praised by Jesus, who was chaste
Jer 16:1-4 - Jeremiah told not to take wife & have children
1Cor 7:8 - St. Paul was celibate
1Cor 7:32-35 - celibacy recommended for full-time ministers
2Tim 2:3-4 - no soldier gets entangled in civilian pursuits
1Tim 5:9-12 - pledge of celibacy taken by older widows

The worship of angels and saints and Mary is absolutley forbidden. Anyone who worships anything other than the triune God is guilty of idolotry.

This is self explanatory. It is forbbiden by the church and anyone doing it is NOT following church doctrine and it IS NOT supported by the Church

cont…
 
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