To Protestants: Why aren't you Catholic?

[DARichards]

believers:

DA, What you fail to understand is that Protestant Churches have come together in Faith. In the belief that Jesus is Lord and Savior. We follow God’s Law/Commandments and the Covenant given by Jesus. We trust the Bible only.

First, I would take strong disagreement that the Protestant churches have come together in faith. If they had, there wouldn’t be the vast multiplying denominations that we have. The only thing that they have in common is that they all stand by the Protestant war cry of “sola fide”, which was Luther’s private interpretation of Scripture. This leads to the fact that you don’t trust the Bible only. You trust your interpretation of the Bible. There is a big difference

believers:

Remember what Jesus said,
Mat 7:21-23 (I Never Knew You)
21 “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”

22 “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?”

23 "And then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessess!”

What exactly did Jesus mean by “will of my Father” and “lawlessness”? We can only assume Jesus was referring to God’s Commandments.

I will agree that how we live our lives are very important and what we do is an outward manifestation of our faith. We are not saved by Sola Fide and we also are not saved by our works. James states that our works justifies our faith…But this is another discussion…

believers:

Here in lies the problem for the RCC, why aren’t the commandments of the RCC complete? Why does the Vatican leave out the graven images part. See for yourself at the Vatican’s Website. Who gave the RCC the right to omit and change the law?

I mean no disrepect to any of you. But there’s an error in the Catechism. How can you trust the CCC if doesn’t even have the full commandments? I was a Roman Catholic for 36 years and was taught the “Traditional Catechetical Formula”. I had graven images everywhere and didn’t even know it was forbidden by God. And we all know that God has final authority. Not the RCC.

The graven image issue also is a separate issue, but here is a response that I sent you earlier in the week. In addition see CCC 2129-2132;2141

DARichards:

Believers,

Hopefully I can help you with the concern over the graven images part of your question. First of all I understand your concern with images being in churches. As a Protestant, I did not understand either. I have just finished an excellent book that addresses this subject with many others and it was a great help. It seems by your questions you might benefit from Karl Keating’s book, “Catholicsim and Fundamentalism”

Keating does a masterful job of explaining this to us. First of all it is important that the Catholic Church does not worship statues. People bow to the statues out of a respect for the people they represent, not the stones themselves. It would be similar to the way that one would bow with respect to the Queen of England, or a foreign dignitary.

Secondly, we must consider what God meant in the second commandment. God didn’t want the Israelites to attribute Him an earthly form and box him in to that likeness. When the Son of God appeared on the scene, God physically revealed Himself to us as a Human, one of his creatures. Does this mean that we are not to have pictures or statues of our Savior, of course not. Again, we don’t worship the statue of Christ, but what that represents. And by the way, we bow to Him because He IS PRESENT WITH US THERE, EVEN THOUGH WE DO NOT SEE HIM.

But if God meant NO GRAVEN IMAGES of any sort, then He broke His own commandment by having Moses place Cheribum ontop of the Ark of the Covenant and by having Moses raise the serpent on the staff in the wilderness. Notice in this item, God did address the issue when the people started to worship the serpent.

I hope that this does a little help for you. It helped me immensely

 

[St.Eric]

believers:

Okay, I’m going to weigh in since you’ve brought up the Commandments. Exactly which Commandments do you keep? You are absolutely right when you said we would “be persecuted for keeping [God’s] commandments.” Since you’re Catholic, I’m assuming you and All Catholics are “keeping” the “Traditional Catechetical Formula” listed on the Vatican’s website here vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm
Is this a correct assumption?

Yup. I do strive to keep those commandements. And yes, as other posts have shown you, we do beleive GRAVEN images are forbidden. Now, what exactly is a graven image? Surley you don’t beleve that includes ALL images, if so, I would expect you have no photographs in your home and cringe, everytime you see a statue or painting. No, it forbids GRAVEN images. Did not God command a bronze serpent be made in the desert to cure those who had been bitten? Did God not command the ark of the covenant to have images of angels fashioned on the top of it? Yes he did. He does not ban images as a whole. He bans graven images, such as those like the golden calf.

 

[believers]

DARichards:

First, I would take strong disagreement that the Protestant churches have come together in faith. If they had, there wouldn’t be the vast multiplying denominations that we have. The only thing that they have in common is that they all stand by the Protestant war cry of “sola fide”, which was Luther’s private interpretation of Scripture. This leads to the fact that you don’t trust the Bible only. You trust your interpretation of the Bible. There is a big difference

I will agree that how we live our lives are very important and what we do is an outward manifestation of our faith. We are not saved by Sola Fide and we also are not saved by our works. James states that our works justifies our faith…But this is another discussion…

The graven image issue also is a separate issue, but here is a response that I sent you earlier in the week. In addition see CCC 2129-2132;2141

Sorry DA,

I doesn’t look like we’ll agree on this issue. I respect your point of view as I once was a Catholic. Protestants don’t have a “war cry.” We read the Bible and proclaim Jesus as Lord and Savior. And, contrary to popular belief, it is not difficult to read and understand the Bible. It was actually written for all to understand.

Now, I don’t recognize the Catechism of the Catholic Church anymore. If the CCC can’t get the Ten Commandments right then why would I trust it? You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure this one out. But don’t take my word for it, look at the Vatican’s version of the Commandments.Vatican’s Ten Commandments . As a child, I was taught to memorize this version in my CCD classes.

I will restate this, God has final authority. In other words, God can do whatever He wants. We don’t have that authority.

As for graven images, the verses below don’t even say worship graven images… its says “make.”

Deuteronomy 4:15-16, 23,24
15 “Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day [that]
the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:”
16 “Lest ye corrupt [yourselves], and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,”
23 “Take heed to yourselves, lest you forget the covenant of the Lord your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of anything which the Lord your God has forbidden you.”
24 “For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God”

 

[Eden]

Was that link supposed to illustrate how the Church can’t get the Ten Commandment’s right? I read the link and don’t see what the problem is.

We read the Bible and proclaim Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Where in the Bible does it say this is the magic formula? I don’t see any references to the New Testament in the Bible so how did you come up with that? Can you show me in the Bible where it says “read the Bible and proclaim Jesus as Lord and Savior”?

And, contrary to popular belief, it is not difficult to read and understand the Bible. It was actually written for all to understand.

So easy to understand that there are thousands of different interpretations and that many denominations to match.

As for graven images, the verses below don’t even say worship graven images… its says “make.”

Make or not make is not the issue.

IN Exodus 20:3-6 God forbids making graven images for the purpose of idolatry but does not forbid the making of graven images per se. Elsewhere he commands that statues and other graven images be carved for religious purposes. The Catholic Church permits statues because they remind us of unseen things, but it condemns the idolatry of statue worship.

"[The Lord said] make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end. . ." (Ex. 25:18-19).

"You shall make the tabernacle with . . . cherubim skillfully worked" (Ex. 26:1).

"The Lord said to Moses, `Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.’ So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole" (Num. 21:8-9).

"He made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high. . . . He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the Temple . . . And he overlaid the cherubim with gold. He carved all the walls of the Temple round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm trees and open flowers" (1 Kgs. 6:23, 27-29).

"[The brazen sea] stood upon [statues of] twelve oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east" (1 Kgs. 7:25).

"And on the surfaces of its stays and on its panels, he carved cherubim, lions, and palm trees, according to the space of each, with wreaths round about" (1 Kgs. 7:36).

catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9401vbv.asp

 

[St.Eric]

believers:

Sorry DA,

I doesn’t look like we’ll agree on this issue. I respect your point of view as I once was a Catholic. Protestants don’t have a “war cry.” We read the Bible and proclaim Jesus as Lord and Savior. And, contrary to popular belief, it is not difficult to read and understand the Bible. It was actually written for all to understand.

Now, I don’t recognize the Catechism of the Catholic Church anymore. If the CCC can’t get the Ten Commandments right then why would I trust it? You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure this one out. But don’t take my word for it, look at the Vatican’s version of the Commandments.Vatican’s Ten Commandments . As a child, I was taught to memorize this version in my CCD classes.

I will restate this, God has final authority. In other words, God can do whatever He wants. We don’t have that authority.

As for graven images, the verses below don’t even say worship graven images… its says “make.”

Deuteronomy 4:15-16, 23,24
15 “Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day [that]
the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:”
16 “Lest ye corrupt [yourselves], and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,”
23 “Take heed to yourselves, lest you forget the covenant of the Lord your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of anything which the Lord your God has forbidden you.”
24 “For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God”

Please define for us what exactly graven images are. What images has the Lord our God forbidden us to make? Driving home tonight I drove by the Calvalry Baptist church. I noticed they had stained glass windows depicting bible seens. Are those graven images? As I said, what about the photographs and portraits you have in your home. What about the cross on all protestant churches. What about the pitcures in your bibles depicting Christ or bible scenes. PLEASE define what is a graven image.

 

[believers]

St.Eric:

Yup. I do strive to keep those commandements. And yes, as other posts have shown you, we do beleive GRAVEN images are forbidden. Now, what exactly is a graven image? Surley you don’t beleve that includes ALL images, if so, I would expect you have no photographs in your home and cringe, everytime you see a statue or painting. No, it forbids GRAVEN images. Did not God command a bronze serpent be made in the desert to cure those who had been bitten? Did God not command the ark of the covenant to have images of angels fashioned on the top of it? Yes he did. He does not ban images as a whole. He bans graven images, such as those like the golden calf.

Eric, If your church has a carved “likeness of a male or female” in the front where the altar is located, then you break God’s commandment every time you kneel and bow before them.

 

[Eden]

believers:

Eric, If your church has a carved “likeness of a male or female” in the front where the altar is located, then you break God’s commandment every time you kneel and bow before them.

As an ex-Catholic, believers, you are being disingenious when you liken kneeling and bowing as worship of carvings on the altar. You know that Catholics are not worshipping statues or carvings or anyone other than God.

“A person can kneel before a king without worshipping him as a god. In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying to it, any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it.” (CA)

 

[believers]

St.Eric:

Please define for us what exactly graven images are. What images has the Lord our God forbidden us to make? Driving home tonight I drove by the Calvalry Baptist church. I noticed they had stained glass windows depicting bible seens. Are those graven images? As I said, what about the photographs and portraits you have in your home. What about the cross on all protestant churches. What about the pitcures in your bibles depicting Christ or bible scenes. PLEASE define what is a graven image.

God doesn’t leave much room for anything really.
You shall not make for yourself a graven image,
or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath,
or that is in the water under the earth;
you shall not bow down to them or serve them;
16 "Lest ye corrupt [yourselves], and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

I personally don’t have any in my home. I threw them all away. The cross was a tool for torture and murder especially used by the Romans. My guess is that its not of heaven or in the earth. Some Protestants will have not anything to do with symbols just to be sure. I don’t have pictures in my Bible. Just the words.

 

[St.Eric]

believers:

Eric, If your church has a carved “likeness of a male or female” in the front where the altar is located, then you break God’s commandment every time you kneel and bow before them.

Ah, this betrays you. I really cant beleive you were ever a Catholic. You do not know the faith at all. I have seen this recent trend of new posters claiming to have been in the Church for XX number of years. Then when they post, they really show they know nothing about the faith. I suspect we are getting a lot of protestants claiming to be lapsed Catholics. You really don’t know the faith.

 

[Eden]

believers:

God doesn’t leave much room for anything really.
You shall not make for yourself a graven image,
or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath,
or that is in the water under the earth;
you shall not bow down to them or serve them;
16 "Lest ye corrupt [yourselves], and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

I personally don’t have any in my home. I threw them all away. The cross was a tool for torture and murder especially used by the Romans. My guess is that its not of heaven or in the earth. Some Protestants will have not anything to do with symbols just to be sure. I don’t have pictures in my Bible. Just the words.

What about non-religious images? Do you have any? Or does your faith have the same ban on photographs that the Amish do?

 

[St.Eric]

believers:

God doesn’t leave much room for anything really.
You shall not make for yourself a graven image,
or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath,
or that is in the water under the earth;
you shall not bow down to them or serve them;
16 "Lest ye corrupt [yourselves], and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

I personally don’t have any in my home. I threw them all away. The cross was a tool for torture and murder especially used by the Romans. My guess is that its not of heaven or in the earth. Some Protestants will have not anything to do with symbols just to be sure. I don’t have pictures in my Bible. Just the words.

Under your definition it would also be wrong to have any photographs of people, anumials, or landscapes. It would also be wrong to have paintings or sculptures of these. Are you really saying you have none of this stuff in your home? Let us know. I would be interested. Also, you are saying that every statue in the world is graven? Even art? Let us know. I am very curious about this.

 

[St.Eric]

Oh yeah. Believers, you should change your profile. You definatley are not a Roman Catholic. Truth in advertising my friend!

 

[Eden]

St.Eric:

Oh yeah. Believers, you should change your profile. You definatley are not a Roman Catholic. Truth in advertising my friend!

It does say “Catholic” in his profile, doesn’t it?

 

[believers]

I wasn’t lying when I said I was a former Catholic of 36 years. As of January I turned 37. And yes, I know the RCC faith very well. St. Cletus in Gretna, LA was my church since '76. My belief changed in the wake of my home being hit by hurricane Katrina. I lived in New Orleans and saw the destruction. It was during that time I became facinated with the “Bible Code.” I started transliterating words into Hebrew and then found myself exploring the Hebrew Bible. This lead me to the original Commandments as God gave them to Moses. Since I knew the RCC Commandments, I knew there was a missing commandment. That’s when I decided to leave the RCC. I trusted the RCC. In my book, giving me only 90% of the commandments is unacceptable. So now I am a born-again Christian. I know all the Ten Commandments and the Covenant by Jesus and much more. At any rate, whether you believe my faith or not, I consider all you my brothers and sisters.

 

[Eden]

believers:

I wasn’t lying when I said I was a former Catholic of 36 years. As of January I turned 37. And yes, I know the RCC faith very well. St. Cletus in Gretna, LA was my church since '76. My belief changed in the wake of my home being hit by hurricane Katrina. I lived in New Orleans and saw the destruction. It was during that time I became facinated with the “Bible Code.” I started transliterating words into Hebrew and then found myself exploring the Hebrew Bible. This lead me to the original Commandments as God gave them to Moses. Since I knew the RCC Commandments, I knew there was a missing commandment. That’s when I decided to leave the RCC. I trusted the RCC. In my book, giving me only 90% of the commandments is unacceptable. So now I am a born-again Christian. I know all the Ten Commandments and the Covenant by Jesus and much more. At any rate, whether you believe my faith or not, I consider all you my brothers and sisters.

In the religion category on your profile, it says “Catholic” but as you are no longer Catholic perhaps you will change it to “Born Again Christian” so everyone will know where you are coming from.

Regarding “Bible Code”, are you aware that it is not just the Bible that yields ELS? Brendan McKay (an Australian mathematician) found many ELS letter arrays in Moby Dick that could be related to modern events. There are other texts which also have ELS letter arrays.

 

[Eden]

Here is a good article on the Ten Commandments:

catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0403fea3.asp

 

[believers]

St.Eric:

Under your definition it would also be wrong to have any photographs of people, anumials, or landscapes. It would also be wrong to have paintings or sculptures of these. Are you really saying you have none of this stuff in your home? Let us know. I would be interested. Also, you are saying that every statue in the world is graven? Even art? Let us know. I am very curious about this.

Actually, that’s not my definition. That is God’s Commandment. I don’t have the authority to tell you what is acceptable or unacceptable. You will either obey or disobey this Commandment. There’s no in between. Personally, I’m not taking any chances.

 

[JSmitty2005]

believers:

And yes, I know the RCC faith very well.

It’s funny how many times I’ve heard this from former Catholics. They usually turn around and accuse the Church of Mary-worship and teaching that one can work his way to Heaven. :ehh: I have yet to meet someone that advertises their knowledge of Catholicism that actually has a real knowledge of Catholicism. They just assume, because they were once Catholic, that they must have known it all.

 

[believers]

Eden:

It does say “Catholic” in his profile, doesn’t it?

Well… until very very recently, I did not know which faith I belonged to so I just put “Catholic.” My wife and I called ourselves “God’s People” until we were sure of our denomination. We read the Bible on our own and just kept reading. That’s how I became familiar with these scriptures. There isn’t a day that goes by that we don’t talk about Jesus and His teachings. Anyway, my own mom (Catholic for over 60 years converted to born-again 2 years ago) introduced me to her church. Our beliefs just happen to fit right in.

 

[St.Eric]

believers:

Well… until very very recently, I did not know which faith I belonged to so I just put “Catholic.” My wife and I called ourselves “God’s People” until we were sure of our denomination. We read the Bible on our own and just kept reading. That’s how I became familiar with these scriptures. There isn’t a day that goes by that we don’t talk about Jesus and His teachings. Anyway, my own mom (Catholic for over 60 years converted to born-again 2 years ago) introduced me to her church. Our beliefs just happen to fit right in.

You and your Mom were born-again when you received baptism and confirmation.