To Protestants: Why aren't you Catholic?

[Doreen]

Mickey:

Subjective experiences are not equivalent to facts.

Faith, hope, and love

Well, we share this then,
I have faith in God’s promises, my hope is in the Holy Spirit, and I love Jesus.

Subjective experiences ARE equivalent to facts when they demonstrate the reality of the Power of the Holy Spirit in one’s life.

Did the Lord not command us to encourage one another, share our testimony, and spur one another on to love and good deeds? How can we do this if we don’t share the FACT of His intervention in our lives that has allowed us to go from a selfish brat to a compassionate servant?

And your logic here means that we can disregard the facts of the experiences of Abraham, Isaac, Israel, Joseph, Moses, Daniel, and the list goes on…God shows us Himself, and we experience His divine intervention…what other evidence is there for the reality of the Lord?

What evidence would you rather I offer?

:tiphat:

 

[Eden]

Doreen:

I first came to this website sometime in January or Feb. of this year. Never been here before that.

Regarding your belief that Christ is using you with the Holy Spirit, I respectfully ask you to please keep your pride in check. I’ve seen “go it alone” Christians before and they tend to 1) be very enamored with themselves 2) have a haughty attitude about those who believe in the Church

Re: this “reliance on other people” … you have it backwards. I rely on the Holy Spirit only…and as a Catholic, you are relying on generations of humans, trusting that THEY speak the truth.

Here are quotes from you:

“but the problem was that** I** did not see any of that having any effect on anyone’s life around me”

“It was not lived. It did not transfer over to have any real meaning, or provide me with any real practical understanding of what it all meant.” (In other words, because you did not see Christ at work in other Catholics, your faith was diminished.)

**I **didn’t have anyone witnessing to me about how these things…

So how would I be able to apply it when nobody else was?

Seems to me like you were waiting for others to believe for you.

Their voices are what you are listening to…St. A, St. B., St. C…where is the idea of being a SHEEP that would know His master’s voice? You aren’t following the master, but the teachings of man, if you aren’t listening to the Spirit of God.

Some of the most beautiful witnesses to Christ have been saints and their lives are worth trying to emulate. You degrade the saints as Sts. A B C, yet you expect me to follow* your* witness instead! How am I listening to Christ by following *you *versus following the example of the saints? Do you see the irony in your statement that Catholics follow other people and we are in the depths of spiritual despair unless we follow… YOU?

Look at this quote from one of your posts:

I have experienced His strength in practical, amazing ways. **I **am sad for my friends who aren’t getting it…because **they’**re taught to live up to a much lower standard…they expect to sin over and over. They don’t expect God to be powerful enough to drive the devil out. Sad, sad, sad.

Brings me to tears!

How does your arrogance equate to the Holy Spirit working through you? I see someone who believes they are better than all of their friends and puts their nose in the air “Sad. Sad. Sad.” Somehow, I find it hard to believe the Holy Spirit would work that way. Another spirit does though.

That’s the truth, friend. And the truth shall set you free.

I don’t see the Holy Spirit working through anyone in such a condescending way. “That’s the truth, friend”? Again, PRIDE ALERT!

 

[Eden]

Doreen:

I only can speak from experience. I rely on facts. What are you relying on?

If you are relying on experience, you are relying on you. I’m respectfully pointing out that all of your posts are about you and your relations with others. That doesn’t leave much room for the Holy Spirit. Something to think about.

 

[Mickey]

Doreen:

Their voices are what you are listening to…St. A, St. B., St. C…where is the idea of being a SHEEP that would know His master’s voice? You aren’t following the master, but the teachings of man, if you aren’t listening to the Spirit of God.

**Let us also live in imitation of All the Saints, to have them always as aids and protectors. Let us imitate their struggles and virtues and especially humility, faith, hope and love. **

Elder Joseph the Hesychast

**It is a fact, brothers and sisters, that the path of the saints in this life is one full of troubles. They either endure the pain of longing for that which is to come, like the one who said, ‘Woe is me that I have such a long pilgrimage’ (Ps. 120:5, LXX) or they are distressed by their longing for the salvation of others, as Paul wrote to the Corinthians, ‘I am afraid that when I come to you, God may humble me and cause me to weep and mourn over many who have sinned and not repented of impurity, fornication and licentiousness which they have practiced.’ **

St. Athanasius

**By the death of martyrs religion has been defended, faith increased, the Church strengthened; the dead have conquered, the persecutors have been overcome. And so we celebrate the death of those of whose lives we are ignorant. So, too, David rejoiced in prophecy at the departure of his own soul, saying: “Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints.” He esteemed death better than life. The death itself of the martyrs is the prize of their life. And again, by the death of those at variance hatred is put an end to. **

**St. Ambrose of **Milan

 

[Mickey]

Doreen:

And your logic here means that we can disregard the facts of the experiences of Abraham, Isaac, Israel, Joseph, Moses, Daniel,

Please don’t put words in my mouth.

Doreen:

God shows us Himself, and we experience His divine intervention.

With all due respect Doreen, I’m just not convinced that what you are experiencing has it’s source as divine intervention when you say things like:
“This is a SERIOUS oversight by the “church of Christ”…and I would not recommend the Catholic Church to anyone, until I see them living up to the standards Christ set, by teaching and living out the Gospel…”

And

“I am sad for my friends who aren’t getting it…because they’re taught to live up to a much lower standard…they expect to sin over and over. They don’t expect God to be powerful enough to drive the devil out. Sad, sad, sad”.

And there are many other statements from your lengthy posts that do not seem to come from a good place–a place of humility, Christian charity and love.

These judgemental statements seem to indicate that you can read hearts! You have found Christ and know Him intimately, but you feel sad for all these others. Only God can read hearts.

So please excuse me if I am not convinced that your subjective experiences are absolute evidence that the Catholic Church is not living up to the Standards established by Christ.

As always, I will continue to pray for you and your family.

That worst of sinners,
Mickey

 

[Eden]

Just one more thing that I came back to post because I am thinking about you and praying for you, Doreen.

Your description of what it means to be Christian can only be told telling us about you, your experiences and how you came to be the Christian you are today. In other words, it’s Christianity filtered through Doreen. You are not able to define your Christianity without telling us about you.

In fact, I learned a lot about you but not a lot about Jesus. You mentioned “I” way more than you mentioned “Jesus” or the “Holy Spirit”.

In contrast, you could get 5, 10, 15 Catholics on here all telling you about our faith and you would get consistent answers about what we believe (and never once learn anything about our personal lives).

Just looking at that reality, which seems more likely to be coming from God?

 

[Mickey]

Eden:

I don’t see the Holy Spirit working through anyone in such a condescending way. “That’s the truth, friend”? Again, PRIDE ALERT!

**The chief cause of criticism and slander is pride and egotism, for man thinks himself better [than others]. For this reason it is very beneficial for a person to think of himself as smaller than all, so that he sees the brother as better, in order that he may, with the help of God, be delivered from this evil. **

**Elder Ephraim of Philotheou Mount Athos, “Counsels from the Holy Mountain” ******

The mercy of God supports all of us, but if we are proud, God will lift off His grace and we will become worse than the others.

Elder Ephraim of Philotheou Mount Athos, "Counsels from the Holy Mountain"

.…inevitably those who put on a show of holiness for the sake of self-display not only fail to achieve anything through their false piety, but also are wounded by their conscience.

St. Maximos the Confessor (First Century on Theology no. 19)

**…those who are a law unto themselves cannot escape conceit. **

St. Gregory of Sinai (On Silence and Prayer no. 8)

**A hypocrite, hunting after the glory that comes from an apparent righteousness, is untroubled so long as he thinks that he escapes notice. But when he is detected, he utters streams of imprecation, imagining that by abusing others he can hide his own deformity. **

St. Maximos the Confessor (First Century on Theology no. 23)

 

[Eden]

This is given to Doreen in Christian love because she was sent here; just not for the reason she thinks:

Pride is the excessive love of one’s own excellence. It is ordinarily accounted one of the seven capital sins. St. Thomas, however, endorsing the appreciation of St. Gregory, considers it the queen of all vices, and puts vainglory in its place as one of the deadly sins. In giving it this pre-eminence he takes it in a most formal and complete signification. He understands it to be that frame of mind in which a man, through the love of his own worth, aims to withdraw himself from subjection to Almighty God, and sets at naught the commands of superiors. It is a species of contempt of God and of those who bear his commission. Regarded in this way, it is of course mortal sin of a most heinous sort. Indeed St. Thomas rates it in this sense as one of the blackest of sins. By it the creature refuses to stay within his essential orbit; he turns his back upon God, not through weakness or ignorance, but solely because in his self-exaltation he is minded not to submit. His attitude has something Satanic in it, and is probably not often verified in human beings. A less atrocious kind of pride is that which imples one to make much of oneself unduly and without sufficient warrant, without however any disposition to cast off the dominion of the Creator. This may happen, according to St. Gregory, either because a man regards himself as the source of such advantages as he may discern in himself, or because, whilst admitted that God has bestowed them, he reputes this to have been in response to his own merits, or because he attributes to himself gifts which he has not; or, finally, because even when these are real he unreasonably looks to be put ahead of others. Supposing the conviction indicated in the first two instances to be seriously entertained, the sin would be a grievous one and would have the added guilt of heresy. Ordinarily, however, this erroneous persuasion does not exist; it is the demeanour that is reprehensible. The last two cases generally speaking are not held to constitute grave offences. This is not true, however, whenever a man’s arrogance is the occasion of great harm to another, as, for instance, his undertaking the duties of a physician without the requisite knowledge. The same judgment is to be rendered when pride has given rise to such temper of soul that in the pursuit of its object one is ready of anything, even mortal sin. Vainglory, ambition, and presumption are commonly enumerated as the offspring vices of pride, because they are well adapted to serve its inordinate aims. Of themselves they are venial sins unless some extraneous consideration puts them in the ranks of grievous transgressions. It should be noted that presumption does not here stand for the sin against hope. It means the desire to essay what exceeds one’s capacity.

newadvent.org/cathen/12405a.htm

 

[Dorothy]

believers:

Thank you Dorothy, However, it supports my claim about the 2 different versions of the Ten Commandments. It also supports my claim that only the Traditional Formula is taught and learned “in the order as we still know it from the Catechism.”

The 10 Commandments that were taken down were not the same as the ones we memorize or “learned in childhood.”

Just curious, why do you think they removed the original and replace it with the version from the Catechism? Why not leave God’s law as given by moses intact?

There is an explanation - I thought it was entirely addressed in that long article. Perhaps you do not understand it.

It does not, I repeat, it does not mean that Catholics were doing something underhanded in order to sneak in images. This is the conclusion of those who want to make an issue of it.

 

[Dorothy]

believers:

Thank you Dorothy, However, it supports my claim about the 2 different versions of the Ten Commandments. It also supports my claim that only the Traditional Formula is taught and learned “in the order as we still know it from the Catechism.”

The 10 Commandments that were taken down were not the same as the ones we memorize or “learned in childhood.”

Just curious, why do you think they removed the original and replace it with the version from the Catechism? Why not leave God’s law as given by moses intact?

I have a feeling you did not read the entire article, as you are still suspicious about the RCC “not leaving it intact”. Reading that article carefully (it is a bit long) explains.

 

[Dorothy]

believers:

Mickey, those aren’t the commandments as given by God in Exodus or Deuteronomy. Here’s a convenient link for you so you can see what the Vatican has on that vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm

And, again, here is a different site that may be clearer for you to understand:

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/NUMBERNG.HTM

 

[Doreen]

Eden:

How does your arrogance equate to the Holy Spirit working through you? I see someone who believes they are better than all of their friends and puts their nose in the air “Sad. Sad. Sad.” Somehow, I find it hard to believe the Holy Spirit would work that way. Another spirit does though.

I don’t see the Holy Spirit working through anyone in such a condescending way. “That’s the truth, friend”? Again, PRIDE ALERT!

Eden, Mickey,
First of all, I don’t speak out of pride, but out of compassion for others. If you are reading pride into what I am saying, then that is simply the shortcoming of this method of discussion.

You can’t HEAR my tone in text. I certainly do not intend to be condescending. Maybe your conscience is just hearing it that way?

I don’t mean to disrespect the Saints in any way. You seem to disrespect the Holy Spirit, I was just saying that every text handed down isn’t necessarily inspired by the Spirit.

I have only my experience to base what I understand. I am not going to speak for nor judge anyone else…I simply know where I was and where I am now.

I know that Christ can reach us where we are at. I’m not saying there are not Spirit-led Catholics. I just disagree with putting my faith in anything other than Christ.

I have met Catholics on this site who have the Spirit, so I have never said it’s an all or nothing thing. I am simply speaking about my experience—which is in line with the OP’s question as to why I am not Catholic.

You seem to be unable to accept that my experience is legitimate. You’re judging me by saying I am prideful. I have nothing to boast about except the Lord who has shown me His amazing ways. Is it prideful to wish His peace for others? Is it prideful to declare the wondrous works of the Lord?

The Lord has worked on my pride. I am not here to say I am perfect…but I will not limit my faith in the Lord by man’s standards. He is great and mighty to save. He came that we might overcome. He alone can keep us from stumbling. I boast of Him and His works. Not my own.

You guys seem to take offense to a person sharing the testimony of how the Spirit has worked in their (that is, somebody who is actually living and breathing today) life. How else do we “encourage one another and spur one another on to love and good deeds” if we don’t share how He has given us a new heart and empowered us to serve Him?

Would you have told David to hush up with all his Psalms because it was all about David? (i.e. “I sought the Lord and he answered me; he delivered me from all my fears.”) Oh boy, that David SURE DID have a pride problem! (Sorry, couldn’t resist a little sarcasm here.)

You squelch the Holy Spirit when you tell somebody they cannot share the wondrous works of the Lord.

Maybe there’s something behind your offense that you need to examine here? I can’t say what it is, because I don’t know your heart.

I don’t profess to know the hearts of others at all…I know the heart I had when I was struggling as a Catholic. I speak from my experience. And I am guilty of “assuming” that there might be someone out there who felt the same lack in their faith.

I thank you for your prayers.
D.

 

[Mickey]

Doreen:

You seem to disrespect the Holy Spirit.

There you go again.

Doreen:

I just disagree with putting my faith in anything other than Christ.

And again.

Doreen:

You squelch the Holy Spirit .

And again.

 

[ExpectAMiracle]

Doreen:

Beautifully put.

Mickey:

Why do you always quote one of the saints? You might make better points with the protestants here if you quoted more scripture :>)

Who made them saints anyway?

 

[Mickey]

ExpectAMiracle:

Mickey:
Why do you always quote one of the saints? You might make better points with the protestants here if you quoted more scripture

When you are praying alone, and your spirit is dejected, and you are wearied and oppressed by your loneliness, remember then, as always, that God the Trinity looks upon you with eyes brighter than the sun; also all the angels, your own Guardian Angel, and all the Saints of God. Truly they do; for they are all one in God, and where God is, there are they also. Where the sun is, thither also are directed all its rays. Try to understand what this means.
Elder Herman of Mt. Athos

 

[Eden]

Doreen:

Eden, Mickey,
First of all, I don’t speak out of pride, but out of compassion for others. If you are reading pride into what I am saying, then that is simply the shortcoming of this method of discussion. You can’t HEAR my tone in text. I certainly do not intend to be condescending. Maybe your conscience is just hearing it that way?

:nope: The most I can do is call it to your attention. I did my best. I leave the rest up to the Holy Spirit.

You seem to be unable to accept that my experience is legitimate. You’re judging me by saying I am prideful. I have nothing to boast about except the Lord who has shown me His amazing ways. Is it prideful to wish His peace for others? Is it prideful to declare the wondrous works of the Lord?

The Lord has worked on my pride… etc…
You guys seem to take offense to a person sharing the testimony of how the Spirit has worked in their (that is, somebody who is actually living and breathing today) life… etc…

As I stated before, the saints lives are a beautiful testimony to the Christian life fully-lived, “a Christian witness”, if you will. The first one that comes to mind is St. Teresa of Avila’s “Interior Castle”. Of course, there are hundreds more.

 

[Eden]

ExpectAMiracle:

Who made them saints anyway?

God

 

[St.Eric]

ExpectAMiracle:

Doreen:

Beautifully put.

Mickey:

Why do you always quote one of the saints? You might make better points with the protestants here if you quoted more scripture :>)

Who made them saints anyway?

The Lord God almighty made them saints. We merit nothing on our own. It was through the Grace of Christ and the power of God that they became saints. You wanted scripture? Here is some on the Saints!

Speaking to the communion of Saints
Eph 1:22-23 - he is head of the Church, which is His body
Eph 5:21-32 - Christ is the head of the Church, Savior of the body
Col 1:18, 24 - He is head of the body, the Church
1Cor 12:12-27 - if I suffer, all suffer; if I am honored, all rejoice
Rom 12:5 - we are one body in Christ, individual parts of one another
Eph 4:4 - one body, one Spirit, called to one hope
Col 3:15 - you were called in one body
Rom 8:35-39 - death cannot separate us from Christ
Rom 12:10 - love one another with mutual affection
1Thess 5:11 - encourage, build up one another
Gal 6:2 - bear one another’s burdens
Gal 6:10 - let us do good to all, especially those in family of faith

Intercessory Prayer of Saints
Rom 15:30 - join me by your prayers to God on my behalf
Col 4:3, 1Thess 5:25 - pray for us
2Thess 1:11 - we always pray for you
2Thess 3:1 - finally, brothers, pray for us
Eph 6:18-19 - making supplication for all the saints & for me
Tob 12:12 - angel presents Tobit & Sarah’s prayer to God
Ps 148 - David calls upon angels
Zech 1:12 – angel intercedes for Jerusalem
Mk 12:25, Mt 22:30 - men in heaven are as the angels
Rev 5:8 – those in heaven offer prayers of the holy ones to God
Mk 12:26-27 - he is God of the living, not of the dead
Mk 9:4 - Jesus seen conversing with Elijah & Moses
Lk 9:31 - Elijah & Moses aware of earthly events
Rev 6:9-11 - martyrs under altar want earthly vindication
Heb 12:1 - we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses
Lk 16:19-30 - departed rich man intercedes for brothers
Rev 20:4 - saw the souls of those who had been beheaded
Wis 3:1-6 - the souls of the just are in the hand of God
2Macc 15:7-16 – the departed Onias & Jeremiah pray for the Jews
Jas 5:16 Prayers of righteous man
1 Cor. 13:12 - I shall understand fully
1 John 4: 20-21 whoever loves God must love his brother
1 Cor 12:21 - parts of Christ’s Body cannot say to other parts, “I do not need you”.
1Tim 2:1-7 - offer prayers, petitions for all men
1Pet 2:5 - be a holy priesthood to offer sacrifices through Christ
Mk 10:18 - only God is good
Mt 25:23 - well done my good and faithful servant
Jn 10:11-16 - I am good shepherd; one flock I shepherd
Jn 21:15-16 - feed my lambs, tend my sheep
Eph 4:11 - He gave some as apostles…others as pastors
Heb 3:1, 7:24, 9:12-13 - Jesus eternal high priest; one sacrifice
Rev 1:6, 5:10 - He made us a kingdom of priests for God

 

[DARichards]

ExpectAMiracle:

Doreen:

Beautifully put.

Mickey:

Why do you always quote one of the saints? You might make better points with the protestants here if you quoted more scripture :>)

Who made them saints anyway?

Doreen and Expect

There are a couple of things that I have learned during my conversion to the Catholic Church.

1. “Protestant worship is pretty much the same as Catholic worship…with the heart cut out of it.”

Let me explain.

The Body of Christ is a beautiful organism that far surpasses all our minds and expanses in time. The Body of Christ is centered on one thing and one thing only : The death, burial and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. Without any of these three facets, we would be nothing but delusional. As precious and Holy as the Sacred Scriptures are, they are not God and they are not the Body of Christ. Christ didn’t die for the redemption Scriptures. He died to redeem people. Us who are in need of his redemption. When the Catholic Church venerates the Saints we are celebrating the work that God has done in the redemption in the lives of those who have gone before and who are right now before the very throne of the Father praying for us. Why would they pray for us? They would pray for us because we are all part of the same body. Remember in heaven there are not time or space boundaries…Only those who have achieved their eternal reward and who are interceding with the Father for us that we would join them.

This is why the Catholic Church focuses on the Eucharist. The Sacrifice of Christ is the center and the heart of our faith. When I was a protestant, yes I heard some awesome sermons!. I heard the Word proclaimed. But it was lacking. Why, you may ask. For the first reason, this was just this persons opinion of Scripture. If the center of our faith is the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord, then that is what we should be celebrating every week. THAT IS THE HEART OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH. THAT IS WHAT THE PROTESTANT CHURCH LACKS.

I

 

[Doreen]

DARichards:

This is why the Catholic Church focuses on the Eucharist. The Sacrifice of Christ is the center and the heart of our faith. When I was a protestant, yes I heard some awesome sermons!. I heard the Word proclaimed. But it was lacking. Why, you may ask. For the first reason, this was just this persons opinion of Scripture. If the center of our faith is the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord, then that is what we should be celebrating every week. THAT IS THE HEART OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH. THAT IS WHAT THE PROTESTANT CHURCH LACKS.

I

The center of our faith is the resurrection…we can all die and be buried.

Re: the Saints…Jesus said they will be “asleep in Christ” until He comes again. Read Revelation to see when He calls the dead in Christ.

DA,
What I have heard on this thread and many others on CA is a common theme. Many Catholics will tell you that you must trust in the church. They don’t tell you that you can have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which will guide YOU into all truth.

Know this. Doubt and confusion are not of God. So if you have doubt about any aspect of the church’s teachings, I caution you to pray about it. Ask the Holy Spirit to teach you.

HOLY SPIRIT — FALL ON ME — CHANGE ME — FOR I NEVER WANT TO BE THE SAME AGAIN!
(Nothing prideful about that prayer!)

Mickey and Eden,
Shared personal experience is the best way to understand something and relate. I can totally relate to the gazillions of Spirit-filled Christians (Catholic and Non-c.) on this website, in my family and in my church, in books I’ve read and Bible studies I’ve done.

I can’t convince you to believe what I say…you’d have to experience it for yourself.

Christ promised that He would remain in us if we would remain in Him. These are promises I take personally, and I have experienced the assurance of His presence in my life. It cannot be denied.

As I stated before, the saints lives are a beautiful testimony to the Christian life fully-lived, “a Christian witness”, if you will.

Exactly! And that’s why sharing our testimony is a wonderful thing. It encourages others to seek the Lord.

The Catholic Church has made “Sainthood” … some unique entity in which only a few elect might obtain…Protestants realize that Jesus came that we might all be transformed to His likeness.

We are crippled in our walks if our church tells us to “try” to be like Mother Theresa, but doesn’t show us how she came to be so wonderful. She said herself, “I am simply a pencil in the hand of my Lord.”

She was used as a vessel for God…and we all can be, too! We don’t have to be some unique, specially ordained, mystical thing…we are humans…the Saints were humans. And we are Saints if we allow Christ to transform us by the renewing of our minds that we might be fit unto His good purpose.

The devil surely hates for us to let anyone in on the secret that God cares about even us “little people.” We might actually start turning to Christ and trusting Him to change us.

I pray for all who read this… that nobody puts a stumbling block in your way.
D.