To Protestants: Why aren't you Catholic?

[Eden]

St.Eric:

Based on your posts, shouldn’t you become a Messianic Jew?

I was wondering the same thing myself.

If I’m not mistaken, Michael Drosnin used the Dead Sea Scrolls. Apprarently, these were untouched copies of the Torah.

“The most ancient surviving copies of the Hebrew Scriptures are currently the Dead Sea Scrolls but they had been copied by generations of scribes for over a millennia. Mistakes have been made; letters have been left out; words have been changed.”

religioustolerance.org/biblcode1.htm

 

[Eden]

From an interview with Drosnin on CNN:

cnn.com/WORLD/9706/04/israel.bible/drosninlog.html

Jennifer: I am religious and I’m not so sure I believe in codes

Moderator: If you have any questions for Michael Drosnin, please send them to the Moderator.

DROSNIN: In some ways it’s easier if you are religious, because you believe in a higher intelligence that is all knowing. In some ways it is more difficult, because you accept a Bible set in stone, and an interactive code is unsettling.

Nostro: What is your religion?

DROSNIN: I am Jewish. But I am not at all religious, and don’t believe in God.

 

[believers]

Eden:

The Protestant belief in Sola Scriptura (Bible Alone) was not a Christian belief until the 16th century. The idea of “Bible Only” is the invention of Martin Luther, not God. The Church has always taught through oral tradition since 33 A.D. When the Canon was set at the Councils of Carthage and Hippo at the end of the 4th century, the Church had a consistent Canon which Luther rearranged 1100 years later. You are using a Bible that reflects Luther’s idea of how the Bible should be arranged.

Okay, What came first… traditions of man or the Bible?

 

[kujo313]

St.Eric:

ya gotta do better than that. Paul elswhere tells us to “hold fast to the Traditions that we gave you, whether through the written word or through the spoken word.”

Woa! My first post!

“Hold fast to the ‘Traditions’ that we gave you, whether through the written word or through the spoken word.”

Exactly WHAT were those “traditions”?

The tradition of Mary as the Mother of God started in the Council of Chaicedon in A.D. 451. It was at this council that Mary was given the title Theotokos (“God-bearer” or “mother of God”).

Since Christ is God and Mary gave birth to Jesus, therefore, Mary is the “Mother of God”.

That would conclude the persons in the Godhead need a mother. That is impossible seeing that they always is, was, and shall be.
In John chapter 1, we learn that Jesus was with God and was God in the very beginning (of time). When Jesus was asked in John 8: 57 "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

Jesus replied, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Abraham was before Mary.

The Son, who in time and space became united to a human nature in the virgin’s womb, looked to Mary as mother with respect to His manhood, NOT His Godhood.

“Worship” - (according to Dictionary.com)

“The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.”

“Rosary” - (according to Dictionary.com)

“A form of devotion to the Virgin Mary, chiefly consisting of three sets of five decades each of the Hail Mary, each decade preceded by the Lord’s Prayer and ending with a doxology.”

Maybe you might not call it “worship” or “devotion”, but it is.

I’d rather follow Jesus, (Luke 11: 27-28)

27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”

28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

Going on with “tradition”, there are no traditions of worshipping Mary until hundreds of years later. It’s a natural human tendency to lift the mother higher than the son, but Jesus seemed to go out of his way to down-play it; even calling her “woman”. (John 2:1-4; 19:26)
It was not customary in those days for a Jewish son to call his mother “woman”.

Scripture, as well as the earliest “traditions” that was taking place DURING the time that Paul wrote his letters does NOT place Mary as “The Mother of God” or “Theotokos”.

Sure, Mary was to be “Blessed amongst women” because of the role that she was elected to play as mentioned in Old Testament prophecies:

(Isaiah 7:14)
“Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.”

Catholic “tradition” lifts her to a higher level, a tradition that was not in place when Paul told the believers about keeping traditions. Check the letters of Paul, he did not lift Mary to any level.

You simply cannot make up traditions and refer to what Paul said.

I urge you to read “From Lowly Handmaid to Queen of Heaven: The Mary of Roman Catholicism.”

 

[Eden]

believers:

Okay, What came first… traditions of man or the Bible?

The Traditions of the Church were handed down to us by the Apostles. They are from God. The disciples taught by oral tradition from the beginning. Not every community had all of the Scriptures at their disposal in the early years. Many converted to Christianity without ever hearing one line of Scripture. Christians were martyred before the Canon was set. Were they dying for the Bible or for their belief in the teachings of Christ which came down from the Apostles? Did you notice Jesus’ emphasis on ministry in His lifetime? He spent the last years of His life getting His disciples to carry on His work. He did not intend for the Bible to be all we needed to know. If He did, He would not have taught His disciples to carry on His work (including orally). He would have concentrated on writing the Bible with His own hand.

Where in the Bible does it say “Bible only”?

 

[Eden]

Kujo313, Let’s start individual threads for these topics so they can get the attention they deserve. This is a common tactic of non-Catholics who come here. They dump every objection into one thread and nothing gets the attention it deserves. Please start individual threads.

Where in the Bible does it say “Bible only”?

 

[believers]

Eden:

The Traditions of the Church were handed down to us by the Apostles. They are from God. The disciples taught by oral tradition from the beginning. Not every community had all of the Scriptures at their disposal in the early years. Many converted to Christianity without ever hearing one line of Scripture. Christians were martyred before the Canon was set. Were they dying for the Bible or for their belief in the teachings of Christ which came down from the Apostles? Did you notice Jesus’ emphasis on ministry in His lifetime? He spent the last years of His life getting His disciples to carry on His work. He did not intend for the Bible to be all we needed to know. If He did, He would not have taught His disciples to carry on His work (including orally). He would have concentrated on writing the Bible with His own hand.

Where in the Bible does it say “Bible only”?

Eden, that’s where we differ greatly. To me, “Bible only” means “The Word of God” only.

 

[Eden]

believers:

Eden, that’s where we differ greatly. To me, “Bible only” means “The Word of God” only.

Oh, well the Church is “The Word of God” only. The “Word of God” comes down to us through both Tradition and Scripture. It’s called the “deposit of faith” and it has been handed down through our bishops through “apostolic succession”.

I assume you agree the Bible does not say “Bible only”.

 

[Eden]

The Canon was set at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage. Does this look like your Bible?

newadvent.org/fathers/3816.htm

That nothing be read in church besides the Canonical Scripture.

ITEM, that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture.

But the Canonical Scriptures are as follows:

• Genesis
• Exodus
• Leviticus
• Numbers
• Deuteronomy
• Joshua the Son of Nun
• The Judges
• Ruth
• The Kings (4 books)
• The Chronicles (2 books)
• Job
• The Psalter
• The Five books of Solomon
• The Twelve Books of the Prophets
• Isaiah
• Jeremiah
• Ezechiel
• Daniel
• Tobit
• Judith
• Esther
• Ezra (2 books)
• Macchabees (2 books)

The New Testament:

• The Gospels (4 books)
• The Acts of the Apostles (1 book)
• The Epistles of Paul (14)
• The Epistles of Peter, the Apostle (2)
• The Epistles of John the Apostle (3)
• The Epistles of James the Apostle (1)
• The Epistle of Jude the Apostle (1)
• The Revelation of John (1 book)

Let this be sent to our brother and fellow bishop, [Pope] Boniface, and to the other bishops of those parts, that they may confirm this canon, for these are the things which we have received from our fathers to be read in church.

 

[Eden]

History of the New Testament summarized:

**A. THE FORMATION OF THE NEW TESTAMENT CANON **
(A.D. 100-220)

B. THE PERIOD OF DISCUSSION (A.D. 220-367)

C. THE PERIOD OF FIXATION (A.D. 367-405)

D. SUBSEQUENT HISTORY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT CANON

The New Testament Canon outside the Church

The Orthodox Russian and other branches of the Eastern Orthodox Church have a New Testament identical with the Catholic. In Syria the Nestorians possess a Canon almost identical with the final one of the ancient East Syrians; they exclude the four smaller Catholic Epistles and Apocalypse. The Monophysites receive all the book. The Armenians have one apocryphal letter to the Corinthians and two from the same. The Coptic-Arabic Church include with the canonical Scriptures the Apostolic Constitutions and the Clementine Epistles. The Ethiopic New Testament also contains the so-called “Apostolic Constitutions”. As for Protestantism, the Anglicans and Calvinists always kept the entire New Testament. But for over a century the followers of Luther excluded Hebrews, James, Jude, and Apocalypse, and even went further than their master by rejecting the three remaining deuterocanonicals, II Peter, II and III John. The trend of the seventeenth century Lutheran theologians was to class all these writings as of doubtful, or at least inferior, authority. But gradually the German Protestants familiarized themselves with the idea that the difference between the contested books of the New Testament and the rest was one of degree of certainty as to origin rather than of instrinsic character. The full recognition of these books by the Calvinists and Anglicans made it much more difficult for the Lutherans to exclude the New Testament deuteros than those of the Old. One of their writers of the seventeenth century allowed only a theoretic difference between the two classes, and in 1700 Bossuet could say that all Catholics and Protestants agreed on the New Testament Canon. The only trace of opposition now remaining in German Protestant Bibles is in the order, Hebrews, coming with James, Jude, and Apocalypse at the end; the first not being included with the Pauline writings, while James and Jude are not ranked with the Catholic Epistles.

newadvent.org/cathen/03274a.htm

 

[DARichards]

believers

I have posted these questions regarding previously, and nobody seems willing to answer them. It should give you some thoughts…

DARichards:

Here are some questions that I found on www.catholicconvert.com. They were written by David Palm and are some things for our “Bible Only BrotherS”(BOBS) to think about?

1. Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?
2. Other than the specific command to John to pen the Revelation, where did Jesus tell His apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book?
3. Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book?
4. some Protestants claim that Jesus condemned all oral tradition (e.g., Matt 15:3, 6; Mark 7:8?13). If so, why does He bind His listeners to oral tradition by telling them to obey the scribes and Pharisees when they “sit on Moses’ seat” (Matt 23:2)?
5. Some Protestants claim that St. Paul condemned all oral tradition (Col 2:8). If so, why does he tell the Thessalonians to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thes 2:15) and praises the Corinthians because they “hold firmly to the traditions” (1 Cor 11:2)?

(And why does the Protestant NIV change the word “tradition” to “teaching”?)

1. If the authors of the New Testament believed in sola Scriptura, why did they sometimes draw on oral Tradition as authoritative and as God’s Word (Matt 2:23; 23:2; 1 Cor 10:4; 1 Pet 3:19; Jude 9, 14 15)?
2. Where in the Bible is God’s Word restricted only to what is written down?
3. How do we know who wrote the books that we call Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Hebrews, and 1, 2, and 3 John?
4. On what authority, or on what principle, would we accept as Scripture books that we know were not written by one of the twelve apostles?

 

[kujo313]

Eden:

The Traditions of the Church were handed down to us by the Apostles. They are from God. The disciples taught by oral tradition from the beginning. Not every community had all of the Scriptures at their disposal in the early years. Many converted to Christianity without ever hearing one line of Scripture. Christians were martyred before the Canon was set. Were they dying for the Bible or for their belief in the teachings of Christ which came down from the Apostles? Did you notice Jesus’ emphasis on ministry in His lifetime? He spent the last years of His life getting His disciples to carry on His work. He did not intend for the Bible to be all we needed to know. If He did, He would not have taught His disciples to carry on His work (including orally). He would have concentrated on writing the Bible with His own hand.

Where in the Bible does it say “Bible only”?

“Did you notice Jesus’ emphasis on ministry in His lifetime?”
Jesus disencouraged lifting up Mary in His lifetime. He explained everything CLEARLY to His disciples before He left them. In the teachings of the aspotles, they did NOT teach about Mary, but rather about the Gospel of Jesus.
THAT’S the tradition I follow.
When the Dead Sea Scrolls was found, they was dated 1st century and Biblical scholars compared them to the Bibles that are on our shelves today. Not much change.
ORALLY, the Catholic Church gave Mary a new “title”.

Please don’t tell me that the Catholic Church is unable to make a mistake or err in its ways. Only Jesus was perfect.

 

[kujo313]

“Bible Only” is a great place to start:

It has the quotes and teachings of Jesus, our Messiah. It is about God and how mankind can be with Him THROUGH his sacrificial Lamb, Jesus.
Jesus came to us. We had the signs all throughout the Old Testiment. Those “signs” was mainly for the people to know the Messiah when He showed up.
Jesus IS that Messiah! He taught in synagouges and out. He gathered disciples to carry on His work. He carefully and plainly explained to them what to teach and do. They was NOT taught to make things up as they went or to accept teachings and traditions from others outside their own.
In other words, they TAUGHT was Jesus directly told them.

Today, the Catholic Church teaches what so-and-so said in 300-something, what some one else said in 1950, what yet another person said in 600 years ago.

This is NOT what Jesus taught! Sola Scriptula makes sure that the true Church of Jesus Christ stays on course! And the Dead Sea Scrolls tell us that we ARE on course IF we stick with the teachings of Jesus, which are, for us, convienently inside a Book called The Bible.
We don’t have to hear bits and pieces from all over the world, some one put it all together for us.

Stay the course! “Mother” worship started hundreds of years AFTER the Bible was written (not put together yet for us). Check out photos and videos of Latin-American countries and from Poland. They show thousands of people carrying statues of Mary and paintings of her. They say things like: “Holy mother! Save us!”
“Saving” us is NOT what Mary was called to do. She was called to be the “sign” prophecied by Isaiah.
The “tradition” of Mary is NOT the “tradition” that Paul mentions, but merely what came from man.

I’m not saying that Catholics should leave the Catholic Church. I am saying that some “traditions” should be away with. Maybe IF the “traditions” of the Catholic Church was from the origional Gospels (as was also taught by Peter, Paul, James and John).

 

[Eden]

I suggest reading Where We Got the Bible… Our Debt to the Catholic Church by Rev. Henry G. Graham. He is a convert from the Presbyterian religion.

Regarding Tradition and the Blessed Virgin, I would like to respond but I would appreciate it if you would have the courtesy to start a new thread. As you might imagine, this has been answered a hundred times over on these forums. Before posting a new thread, you might want to do a “topic search” to read all of the past threads by Protestants on this. I suggest posting your questions about the Virgin Mary on the Eastern Christianity forum on Catholic Answers as well. You will soon learn that your understanding of Mary is an invention of the Reformation and that the early Church does not correspond with the Protestant teachings on Mary.

 

[Eden]

While I am waiting for you to post a new thread, I’ll give you the Scriptures on the Blessed Mother:

The Uniqueness of Mary as the Mother of God
Gen. 3:15 - we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” This refers to Jesus (the “emnity”) and Mary (the “woman”). The phrase “her seed” (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.

Gen 3:15 / Rev. 12:1 - the Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling satan. This points to the power of the woman with the seed and teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve.

John 2:4, 19:26 - Jesus calls Mary “woman” as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman’s seed will crush the serpent’s skull.

Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23 - a virgin (the Greek word used is “parthenos”) will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means “God is with us.” John 1:14 - God in flesh dwelt among us. Mary is the Virgin Mother of God.

Matt. 2:11 - Luke emphasizes Jesus is with Mary His Mother, and the magi fall down before both of them, worshiping Jesus.

Luke 1:35 - the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the “Theotokos”).

Luke 1:28 - “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God.

Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase “full of grace” is translated from the Greek word “kecharitomene.” This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. “Full of grace” is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Luke 1:38 - Mary’s fiat is “let it be done to me according to thy word.” Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of our veneration.

Luke 1:42 - “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). We too can go through Mary to praise Jesus. Finally, Catholics repeat these divinely inspired words of Elizabeth in the Rosary.

Luke 1:43 - Elizabeth’s use of “Mother of my Lord” (in Hebrew, Elizabeth used “Adonai” which means Lord God) is the equivalent of “Holy Mary, Mother of God” which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus’ Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (Mary is not just the Mother of Jesus’ human nature - mothers are mothers of persons, not natures).

 

[Eden]

Luke 1:44 - Mary’s voice causes John the Baptist to leap for joy in Elizabeth’s womb. Luke is teaching us that Mary is our powerful intercessor.

Luke 1:46 - Mary claims that her soul magnifies the Lord. This is a bold statement from a young Jewish girl from Nazareth. Her statement is a strong testimony to her uniqueness. Mary, as our Mother and intercessor, also magnifies our prayers.

Luke 1:48 - Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the “Hail Mary” prayer. What Protestant churches have existed in all generations (none), and how many of them call Mary blessed with special prayers and devotions?

Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. Mary is the woman with the redeemer. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, we are simply calling Mary “the woman with the redeemer.” This is because “co” is from the Latin word “cum” which means “with.” Therefore, “co-redemptrix” means “woman with the redeemer.” Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.

Eph. 1:1; Phil. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - the word “saints” (in Hebrew “qaddiysh”) means “holy” ones. So Mary is called Holy, the greatest Saint of all.

Luke 2:35 - Simeon prophesies that a sword would also pierce Mary’s soul. Mary thus plays a very important role in our redemption. While Jesus’ suffering was all that we needed for redemption, God desired Mary to participate on a subordinate level in her Son’s suffering, just as he allows us to participate through our own sufferings.

Luke 2:19,51 - Mary kept in mind all these things as she pondered them in her heart. Catholics remember this by devoting themselves to Mary’s Immaculate Heart and all the treasures and wisdom and knowledge contained therein.

Mary is our Mother and Queen of the New Davidic Kingdom
John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying “behold your mother.” Jesus did not say “John, behold your mother” because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The “woman’s” (Mary’s) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God’s covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.

John 2:3 - this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us. Further, Mary’s intercession at the marriage feast in Cana triggers Jesus’ ministry and a foreshadowing of the Eucharistic celebration of the Lamb. This celebration unites all believers into one famiy through the marriage of divinity and humanity.

John 2:7 - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother’s request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water.

Psalm 45:9 - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God’s kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.

1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.

1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King’s followers. She is the Queen Mother (or “Gebirah”). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.

scripturecatholic.com

 

[Eden]

Mary is Ever Virgin

Exodus 13:2,12 - Jesus is sometimes referred to as the “first-born” son of Mary. But “first-born” is a common Jewish expression meaning the first child to open the womb. It has nothing to do the mother having future children.

Exodus 34:20 - under the Mosaic law, the “first-born” son had to be sanctified. “First-born” status does not require a “second” born.

Ezek. 44:2 - Ezekiel prophesies that no man shall pass through the gate by which the Lord entered the world. This is a prophecy of Mary’s perpetual virginity. Mary remained a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus.

Mark 6:3 - Jesus was always referred to as “the” son of Mary, not “a” son of Mary. Also “brothers” could have theoretically been Joseph’s children from a former marriage that was dissolved by death. However, it is most likely, perhaps most certainly, that Joseph was a virgin, just as were Jesus and Mary. As such, they embodied the true Holy Family, fully consecrated to God.

Luke 1:31,34 - the angel tells Mary that you “will” conceive (using the future tense). Mary responds by saying, “How shall this be?” Mary’s response demonstrates that she had taken a vow of lifelong virginity by having no intention to have relations with a man. If Mary did not take such a vow of lifelong virginity, her question would make no sense at all (for we can assume she knew how a child is conceived). She was a consecrated Temple virgin as was an acceptable custom of the times.

Luke 2:41-51 - in searching for Jesus and finding Him in the temple, there is never any mention of other siblings.

John 7:3-4; Mark 3:21 - we see that younger “brothers” were advising Jesus. But this would have been extremely disrespectful for devout Jews if these were Jesus’ biological brothers.

John 19:26-27 - it would have been unthinkable for Jesus to commit the care of his mother to a friend if he had brothers.

John 19:25 - the following verses prove that James and Joseph are Jesus’ cousins and not his brothers: Mary the wife of Clopas is the sister of the Virgin Mary.

Matt. 27:61, 28:1 - Matthew even refers to Mary the wife of Clopas as “the other Mary.”

Matt. 27:56; Mark 15:47 - Mary the wife of Clopas is the mother of James and Joseph.

Mark 6:3 - James and Joseph are called the “brothers” of Jesus. So James and Joseph are Jesus’ cousins.

Matt. 10:3 - James is also called the son of “Alpheus.” This does not disprove that James is the son of Clopas. The name Alpheus may be Aramaic for Clopas, or James took a Greek name like Saul (Paul), or Mary remarried a man named Alpheus.

scripturecatholic.com

 

[Eden]

Mary’s Assumption into Heaven

Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5 - Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying. Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Covenant?

2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 - Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot. Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother.

Psalm 132:8 - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark (Mary) of thy might. Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven.

2 Cor. 12:2 - Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven. Mary was also brought up into heaven by God.

Matt. 27:52-53 - when Jesus died and rose, the bodies of the saints were raised. Nothing in Scripture precludes Mary’s assumption into heaven.

1 Thess. 4:17 - we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev. 12:1 - we see Mary, the “woman,” clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary’s bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary’s bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.

Mary’s Coronation in Heaven
2 Tim 4:8 - Paul says that there is laid up for him the crown of righteousness. The saints are crowned in heaven, and Mary is the greatest saint of all.

James 1:12 - those who endure will receive the crown of life which God has promised. Mary has received the crown of life by bringing eternal life to the world.

1 Peter 5:4 - when the chief Shepherd is manifested we will receive the unfading crown of glory.

Rev. 2:10 - Jesus will give the faithful unto death the crown of life. Jesus gave Mary His Mother the crown of life.

Rev. 12:1 - Mary, the “woman,” is crowned with twelve stars. She is Queen of heaven and earth and the Mother of the Church.

Wis. 5:16 - we will receive a glorious crown and a beautiful diadem from the hand of the Lord. Mary is with Jesus forever crowned in His glory.

scripturecatholic.com

 

[Eden]

Mary is the New Eve and Most Blessed Among Women (Early Church Fathers)

“There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord." Ignatius, To the Ephesians, 7 (c. A.D. 110).

“[T]hey blessed her, saying: O God of our fathers, bless this child, and give her an everlasting name to be named in all generations. And all the people said: So be it, so be it, amen. And he brought her to the chief priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God most high, look upon this child, and bless her with the utmost blessing, which shall be for ever.” *Protoevangelium of John, 6:2 (A.D. 150). *

“He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, ‘Be it unto me according to thy word.’ And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.” *Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155). *

“[H]e was born of Mary the fair ewe.” *Melito de Sardo, Easter Homily (c. A.D. 177). *

“In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, ‘Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.’ But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise ‘they were both naked, and were not ashamed,’ inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; s so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty… Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.” *Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:22 (A.D. 180). *

“For whereas the Word of God was without flesh, He took upon Himself the holy flesh by the holy Virgin, and prepared a robe which He wove for Himself, like a bridegroom, in the sufferings of the cross, in order that by uniting His own power with our moral body, and by mixing the incorruptible with the corruptible, and the strong with the weak, He might save perishing man.”* Hippolytus, Treatise on Christ and antiChrist, 4 (A.D. 200). *

“But the Lord Christ, the fruit of the Virgin, did not pronounce the breasts of women blessed, nor selected them to give nourishment; but when the kind and loving Father had rained down the Word, Himself became spiritual nourishment to the good. O mystic marvel!” *Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, I:6 (A.D.202). *

Much, much more here: scripturecatholic.com

 

[believers]

Eden:

Oh, well the Church is “The Word of God” only. The “Word of God” comes down to us through both Tradition and Scripture. It’s called the “deposit of faith” and it has been handed down through our bishops through “apostolic succession”.

I assume you agree the Bible does not say “Bible only”.

Eden, We’re definitely not going to agree but that’s ok. I believe only in the Word of God now. As stated earlier, the Roman Catholic church has somehow found the authority to do away with one of the commandments in its official teachings. That you cannot deny. How do I know? I was Catholic and my family went thru CCD. The topic of “Bible only” has no bearing on the fact that Catholics are taught 9 of the 10 Commandments. Where did the RCC get the authority to pick and choose which commandments to teach? I’m sure many will think I’m just splitting hairs over this but I’m not ok with that. And that’s my right. As far as I’m concerned, to love God is to keep ALL of His Commandments. Anyway… we can talk about this until we’re both blue in the face and still not agree… but let’s not do that. I’m sure there are other people who’d like to answer the Topic question too.