To Protestants: Why aren't you Catholic?

[Brian_C]

kujo313:

EXACTLY my point! THIRD CENTURY! You can’t even believe that nobody had a clue after Jesus said this. He spoke plainly after His resurrection.

Spoke plainly to who? How do we know what he spoke of?

It is written that He showed His disciples everything that applied to Him as the Messiah.

Written to who? By who? Oh, and when? The Gideons weren’t standing around handing out New Testaments in the first century. These wonderful Church Fathers who you seem to imply are uneccessary were the ones passing this info along.

 

[Eden]

"Holy Mary, (was she not Holy?) “Holy” - set aside. Aren’t we all “set aside; Belonging to, derived from, or associated with a divine power”? (dictionary.com)

So, you agree that Mary was Holy.

Mother of God, (was she not the Mother of God?)

Can’t be. God always IS, WAS and EVER SHALL BE. It’s common sense. Jesus moved away from the idea of giving attention to Mary.

**Then you are denying the Divinity of Christ. **

(Luke 11:27-28) He said “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”
Any woman who does the Will of God IS His mother.

Are you denying that Mary gave birth to Jesus?

pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. (Asking her to pray for us. What’s not scriptural here?)

Was she called to be the mediator between us and Jesus? For there is only ONE Mediator between God and man: Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.

This has always been the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. Did you think the teachings of the Church were otherwise? Your mistake in using this quote is that this passage from Timothy does not refer to “subordinate mediation”. The subordinate mediator never stands alone, but is always dependent on Jesus.

In 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul is not rejecting the idea of mediators subordinate to Christ. Just the opposite. Timothy 2 opens with this “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way” (1 Tim. 2:1–2).

"Supplications, prayers, and intercessions are acts of mediation. Paul is instructing Timothy that Christians are to assume the role of a subordinate mediator between God and those listed (namely, “all men, for kings and all who are in high positions”)."

You can read about this in much more detail here:

catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0005fea1.asp

I see that you did not deny that this is Biblical:

BIBLICAL:

The prayer begins, “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.” Luke 1:28 (The angel Gabriel is carrying a message from God. When we pray these words we are repeating words from God.)

BIBLICAL:

**“Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.” This was exactly what Mary’s cousin Elizabeth said to her in Luke 1:42. **

 

[Eden]

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 10:1 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber."

John 10:7-9 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

Again, the Catholic Church does not teach otherwise.

 

[DARichards]

kujo313:

pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. (Asking her to pray for us. What’s not scriptural here?) Was she called to be the mediator between us and Jesus? For there is only ONE Mediator between God and man: Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.

Kujo buddy, better not ever let me catch you asking anybody to pray for you (this would be included but not limited to wife, son, mother, father, pastor, deacon, elder, friend, or televangelist…remember

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus

 

[kujo313]

"Holy Mary, (was she not Holy?) “Holy” - set aside. Aren’t we all “set aside; Belonging to, derived from, or associated with a divine power”? (dictionary.com)

So, you agree that Mary was Holy.

Mother of God, (was she not the Mother of God?)

Can’t be. God always IS, WAS and EVER SHALL BE. It’s common sense. Jesus moved away from the idea of giving attention to Mary.

**Then you are denying the Divinity of Christ. **

(Luke 11:27-28) He said “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”
Any woman who does the Will of God IS His mother.

Are you denying that Mary gave birth to Jesus?

pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. (Asking her to pray for us. What’s not scriptural here?)

Was she called to be the mediator between us and Jesus? For there is only ONE Mediator between God and man: Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.

This has always been the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. This passage from Timothy does not refer to “subordinate mediation”. The subordinate mediator never stands alone, but is always dependent on Jesus.

In 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul is not rejecting the idea of mediators subordinate to Christ. Just the opposite. Timothy 2 opens with this “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way” (1 Tim. 2:1–2).

"Supplications, prayers, and intercessions are acts of mediation. Paul is instructing Timothy that Christians are to assume the role of a subordinate mediator between God and those listed (namely, “all men, for kings and all who are in high positions”)."

You can read about this in much more detail here:

catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0005fea1.asp

I see that you did not deny that this is Biblical:

**BIBLICAL:

The prayer begins, “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.” Luke 1:28 (The angel Gabriel is carrying a message from God. When we pray these words we are repeating words from God.)

BIBLICAL:

“Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.” This was exactly what Mary’s cousin Elizabeth said to her in Luke 1:42.
**

“Then you are denying the Divinity of Christ.”
Huh? You lost me there. I thought that Jesus fulfilled ALL of the prophecies of the Messiah. God declared that Jesus is His Son, He is Divine. Wether or not you want to keep a statue of, or a painting of Mary does not change that Jesus IS divine. God could’ve chosen ANY virgin that He wanted. But He chose Mary. Why? Ask Him when you see Him. His word does NOT tell us to study her or to make a shrine to her. It just simply says that we will know when the Messiah will be born: when a virgin gives birth.
Mary knew that. That’s why you don’t hear much about her in the Bible: she decreased and followed Jesus.

Any other subject is as if a Buddhist saying that Buddiasm is THE true religion because Buddah said so. “The Catholic Church has the exclusive on salvation.” Your Catholic Pope said so. Duh! He wouldn’t say that if he wasn’t Catholic.

The first followers of Jesus was actually called “Followers of the Way.” THEN they was called Christians.

 

[DARichards]

“Then you are denying the Divinity of Christ.”
Huh? You lost me there. I thought that Jesus fulfilled ALL of the prophecies of the Messiah. God declared that Jesus is His Son, He is Divine. Wether or not you want to keep a statue of, or a painting of Mary does not change that Jesus IS divine. God could’ve chosen ANY virgin that He wanted. But He chose Mary. Why? Ask Him when you see Him. His word does NOT tell us to study her or to make a shrine to her. It just simply says that we will know when the Messiah will be born: when a virgin gives birth.
Mary knew that. That’s why you don’t hear much about her in the Bible: she decreased and followed Jesus…

This very heretical teaching came up in the fourth century. People were saying that Christ couldn’t be God because he was a man. This is when the Church (which in the fourth century by the way you didn’t have a choice; if you were a follower of Christ you were Catholic) defined Mary as the Mother of God. Not God the Father, mind you. Rather if we confess the diety of Christ as God, then Mary was the Mother of God. This is where the term Theotokos came from. It means bearer of God.

 

[Eden]

“Then you are denying the Divinity of Christ.”
Huh? You lost me there.

Really? This is one of the oldest heresies originally associated with the Nestorians. You are not familiar with it?

Mother of God - That is a title of Mary. Even Luther and Calvin taught this.

If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God.

Here is one of the earlier quotes about this from St. Irenaeus:

“The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear** God**” (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

 

[kujo313]

DARichards:

This very heretical teaching came up in the fourth century. People were saying that Christ couldn’t be God because he was a man. This is when the Church (which in the fourth century by the way you didn’t have a choice; if you were a follower of Christ you were Catholic) defined Mary as the Mother of God. Not God the Father, mind you. Rather if we confess the diety of Christ as God, then Mary was the Mother of God. This is where the term Theotokos came from. It means bearer of God.

It’s too much “if this, than that” thing. I can accept Mother of Jesus. I can even accept “Mother of the Son of Man.” But I cannot see the “one God, the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen” needing a human mother. God is. God always WAS. And God always WILL be.

Have you ever been told, “you look like your dad.”? Jesus was “Son of Man” on His human side, “Son of God” on His divine side. “Finite” from his human side, “infinite” from His divine side.

Jesus was 100% human and 100% devine. For proof that He was the Messiah, He was born from a virgin, as Scripture said. NOWHERE does it say for us to lift up that virgin.

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

The first followers of Jesus was actually called “Followers of the Way.” THEN they was called Christians.

The word “Christian” was first used in Antioch. Are you familiar with the famous quote from the Bishop of Antioch, St. Ignatius from circa 107 A.D.?

Here it is:

***Wherever the bishop appears let the congregation be present; ***
***just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. *********
***Letter of Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrneans 8 ***

 

[kujo313]

Eden:

Really? This is one of the oldest heresies originally associated with the Nestorians. You are not familiar with it?

Mother of God - That is a title of Mary. Even Luther and Calvin taught this.

If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God.

Here is one of the earlier quotes about this from St. Irenaeus:

“The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear** God**” (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

Please, can we stick to what is between Genesis and Revelation? I don’t want to hear about a study of Mary, I want to hear about God. What the Bible is is God bringing us back to Him. He does not want us to study WHAT He uses. If that was the case, then I’m going to set my bush on fire.

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

It’s too much “if this, than that” thing. I can accept Mother of Jesus. I can even accept “Mother of the Son of Man.” But I cannot see the “one God, the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen” needing a human mother. God is. God always WAS. And God always WILL be.

You either accept that Jesus was God or not. If you do, then you must also accept that Mary was the Mother of God. It’s called a syllogism.

He was born from a virgin, as Scripture said. NOWHERE does it say for us to lift up that virgin.

Luke 1:48

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

Please, can we stick to what is between Genesis and Revelation? I don’t want to hear about a study of Mary, I want to hear about God.

Really? That’s odd. All of your posts have been about Mary.

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

Any other subject is as if a Buddhist saying that Buddiasm is THE true religion because Buddah said so. “The Catholic Church has the exclusive on salvation.” Your Catholic Pope said so. Duh! He wouldn’t say that if he wasn’t Catholic.

Here is an article by a Pentecostal preacher who, in searching for the early Church found that the True Church was Catholic. He and his congregation became Catholics:

catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0007fea5.asp

 

[DARichards]

kujo313:

Please, can we stick to what is between Genesis and Revelation? I don’t want to hear about a study of Mary, I want to hear about God. What the Bible is is God bringing us back to Him. He does not want us to study WHAT He uses. If that was the case, then I’m going to set my bush on fire.

We can stick to Genesis through Revelation if you want, but be aware that prior to the fourth century, any one who was a Christian couldn’t do the same thing. They had no choice but to rely upon Tradition along with the spurious letters that they received.

 

[St.Eric]

kujo313:

The focus of all mankind is to be right with God, not to admire what He uses. (a virgin, a burning bush, a mountaintop, etc.)

So we can safely assume that the old testament ark of the covenant was just tossed around, here and there with no special care given to it or reverence. When people saw the ark passing by, it was like any old ordinary object passing by, no one really noticed it or gave it a second thought. Would this be right? When God commanded Moses to fashion the golden serpent on the pole in the desert, that too was not revered but rather treated as some mundane object. Right?

etc, etc, etc, etc…

 

[St.Eric]

kujo313:

Please, can we stick to what is between Genesis and Revelation? I don’t want to hear about a study of Mary, I want to hear about God. What the Bible is is God bringing us back to Him. He does not want us to study WHAT He uses. If that was the case, then I’m going to set my bush on fire.

Sure, we can stick to the bible as long as you are going to use the complete bible. The one prior to Luther throwing out books on his own authority. We would need to use the one that includes all of the books, the septuagint.

 

[DARichards]

kujo313:

It’s too much “if this, than that” thing. I can accept Mother of Jesus. I can even accept “Mother of the Son of Man.” But I cannot see the “one God, the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen” needing a human mother. God is. God always WAS. And God always WILL be.

Did you even read what I wrote??

DARichards:

… Not God the Father, mind you. Rather if we confess the diety of Christ as God, then Mary was the Mother of God. This is where the term Theotokos came from. It means bearer of God.

I agree, God is all of what is seen and unseen. But when God sent His eternal Son to take a human form so He could be the One who would take upon Himself the wrath of God for us, He had to be born of a woman. That woman would be His mother. He would be God the Son in human form, Not just a resemblance or a likeness, but GOD HIMSELF IN HUMAN FORM. THIS IS THE BASIS OF OUR FAITH. God became man and dwelt with us. This makes Mary the mother of God. It really is pretty simple.

kujo313:

Have you ever been told, “you look like your dad.”? Jesus was “Son of Man” on His human side, “Son of God” on His divine side. “Finite” from his human side, “infinite” from His divine side.

This issue was again handled by the early Church councils. There were many heresies arising that said that Christ was a man with a God nature and a human nature. The Council of Chalcedon defined the Hypostatic Union of Christ at this point. They stated that Christ has two indivisible natures. One of God and the other of man. The two cannot be separated and they are co-existent

kujo313:

Jesus was 100% human and 100% devine. For proof that He was the Messiah, He was born from a virgin, as Scripture said. NOWHERE does it say for us to lift up that virgin.

So what type of respect and honor do you and does your denomination give to Mary for the sacrifice that she played in your salvation to fulfill Luke 1:48???

 

[adrift]

kujo313:

Sure, Jesus honored Mary as his earthly mother. That’s it.

First of all, I cannot accept Mary as my “Holy Mother” for it is not followed by Jesus and the early church.

You said both of these things I think you need to explain the contradiction. How do you define Holy?

It is written that He showed His disciples everything that applied to Him as the Messiah.

It is also written that not everything that Jesus did and said was written down.

 

[Brian_C]

I recommend “The Bible Answerman Debates” Jimmy Akin does a great job of explaining this to James White and Hank Hannegraf.

Mary was the human mother of Jesus divine and human natures. I can’t see what the problem with that is.

From the NAB:

There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written. (Jn. 21:25)

As Hank Hannegraf was fond of saying in the Akin vs. White debates, let’s generate Light and not Heat. Kujo, you wandered upon a Catholic Apologetics website, I pray your intention wasn’t just to start an argument. If your intent is to evangelize, I recommend a less confrontational style. All of us here are seekers of the face of Jesus. Why not sit back and learn more about the way it’s been done for 2000 years?

As for my fellow amateur apologists, let’s remember to be charitable. This thread was started with the question “Protestants, why aren’t you Catholic?” Let’s not get too caught up in attacks when someone explains their reasons…even if the OP was targeted to “protestants” who accept Catholic truths.

Pax Vobiscum!

 

[santaro75]

Eden:

Were you really raised Catholic? I’m sorry but I find it hard to believe that even an ex-Catholic would make the mistake of saying “attended services”. Especially because you stated that you attended Christmas and Easter “services” when a true Catholic knows that we are required to attend Mass every Sunday. And if you received the Eucharist, I don’t know how you can say that you never knew Christ. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I believe you are trying to lead us astray by portraying yourself as an ex-Catholic to lend yourself more credibility. Please tell me if I am wrong, and I will certainly apologize. If I am right, please do not use deception to advance your point of voice. Blessings on your spiritual journey!

No i think he was a catholic. I had a very similar experience where I attended mass my entire life and also went through all the sacraments and the ed courses. The RCC in general does a horrible job teaching the faith. they seem to be primarily concerned with the sacraments.

I found Jesus in the RCC later in life BUT I believe that the sacraments only have their power through faith otherwise they are empty.

But if one really knows the teachings of the RCC they can not say they don’t know christ. the real christ not the feel good one.