To Protestants: Why aren't you Catholic?

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Eden:
You are misinterpreting that passage which I have already pointed out. Jesus is exalting Mary by emphasizing her obedience to God’s word as being more critical than her biological role of mother. In other words, she is to be honored because she said “Yes” to God. In other words, He is saying, “No. My mother is not just a woman who gave birth to me. She was obedient to God.” This affirms Luke 1:48.
Rather, “This woman is not just a woman who gave birth to me, she was obedient to God.” Remember who Jesus said who His mother and his brothers were:

Matthew 12:48-50

48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

All women who does that IS the mother and sister of Jesus. All men who do that are the brothers of Jesus. THAT was His intention. I don’t think He changed His mind after that and the acts of the disciples proved it.

(concerning His disciples) “They gave ALL to follow Me.”
 
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kujo313:
You want to know what draws ME closer to Christ?

The trees: they reach upwards towards Heaven.
The sun: it’s a miracle it don’t burn us up.
The stars: He calls them by name.
The Earth: perfect for life. Only God can make it, not a big bang.
It tilts back and forth to give each hemisphere summer and winter.
It recycles water through vapor, clouds and rain.
It’s at the right distance from the sun.
It had just the right amount of oxygen and stuff to keep life.
It has trees that produce oxygen, for us to breathe.
All of those things draw Me closer to Christ as well as God the Father. From your own list, you see that there are many ways to grow closer to Christ.
 
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Eden:
All of those things draw Me closer to Christ as well as God the Father. From your own list, you see that there are many ways to grow closer to Christ.
AMEN! Something we have in common. Let’s work on that, shall we?
 
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kujo313:
Matthew 12:48-50
Misunderstandings about Jesus “rebuking” Mary

Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 - when Jesus asks, “Who are my mother, and sisters and brothers?,” some Protestants argue that Jesus is rebuking Mary in order to denigrate her. To the contrary, when Jesus’ comments are read in light of Luke 8:5-15 and the parable of the sower which Jesus taught right before His question, Jesus is actually implying that Mary has already received the word as the sower of good ground and is bearing fruit. Jesus is teaching that others must, like Mary, also receive the word and obey it.

Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 - Jesus’ question about “who are my mother, and sisters and brothers” was also made in reference to Psalm 69:8-9. Jesus the Prophet was answering the psalmist’s prophecy that those closest to Him would betray Him at His passion. Jesus is emphasizing the spiritual family’s importance over the biological family, and the importance of being faithful to Him. While many were unfaithful to Jesus, Mary remained faithful to Him, even to the point of standing at the foot of the Cross.

Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 - finally, to argue that Jesus rebuked Mary is to argue that Jesus violated the Torah, here, the 4th commandment. This argument is blasphemous because it essentially says that God committed sin by dishonoring His Mother.

scripturecatholic.com
 
kujo313
“I NEVER want to belong to a church that I can relate to or feel comfortable in. I want to know that I am a sinner just as ALL have sinned and falled short of the Glory of the Lord. I want to know that Jesus lived a sinless life and died for my sins so that I may be right with God if I accept His sacrifice.
The church I belong to does NOT have a parton saint for this and for that. We pray to God, through the Holy Spirit, in the name of Jesus.
As for Christ’s intentions, did you not read in Luke when a woman said “blessed is the womb who bore you…”, Jesus said, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
Blessed is Mary, Mark, Luke, John, Matthew, Paul, Timothy, and others because they heard the word of God and obeyed. Not one is put ahead of the other. We will all sit beside Jesus on His throne (Rev 3).”

You said:
“Did you not read in Luke when a woman said ‘blessed is the womb who bore you…’, Jesus said, ‘Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it’?’”.

Come on, now. pump your brakes, sir. Why the arrogance? I will pray that you take the blinders off at some point in the future.

First, let me acknowledge your failed sarcasm by saying “yes”, I have read Luke. Hopefully, this gives me more points on your scale.

Second, I will shock you by saying that I agree with you in regard to “blessed is Mary, Mark, Luke…” etc. They were all great, in some form or fashion. It’s just that Mary should have a special place of honor (not worship) because of her “closeness” to Christ. For one not to see that she had a more intimate relationship with Him than most needs a touch of humility and simple intuition.

Third, there’s nothing like taking things out of context. Please re-read the Gospels in their entirety. Understand they are divinely-inspired writings from the hands of men. Next, acquaint yourself with the fact that different parts of the Gospels are speaking to different audiences that need to hear a message in a different manner than other audiences.

Oh yeah, and of course, those who have properly-prepared themselves durig their earthly existence will sit next to Jesus on His throne.

Again, all I ask is that you attempt to educate yourself on the Catholic viewpoint objectively. Begin with an open-mind. It seems you are bent to prove it wrong, and in doing so, you are missing the big picture.

God bless.
 
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St.Eric:
Here are the biblical scriptures that support the VISIBLE RCC that Christ founded and wants uss all to participate in. “Father, let them be ONE, as you and I are ONE.”

THE CHURCH
Mt 16:18-19 - upon this rock I will build my Church
Mt 18:17 - if he refuses to listen even to the Church…
Mt 28:18-20 - go baptize and teach all nations
Mk 16:15-16 - go to whole world and proclaim gospel
Lk 10:16 - whoever hears you, hears me; rejects you, rejects me.
Jn 14:16, 26 - Holy Spirit with you always, teach/remind you of everything
Jn 16:13 - Spirit of truth will guide you to all truth.
1Tim 3:15 - Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

The Church is the body of Christ
Col 1:18 - He is the head of the body, the church.
1 Cor 12:20-27 - you are Christ’s body, individually parts of it.
Eph 5:30 - we are members of His body.
Rom 12:4-5 - though many, we are one body in Christ
1 Cor 6:15 - Don’t you know your bodies are members of Christ?

The Church must be one
Jn 10:16 - there will be one fold and one shepherd.
Eph 4:3-6 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father
Rom 16:17 - I urge that there be no divisions among you
1Cor 1:10 - I urge that there be no divisions among you
Phil 2:2 - be of same mind, united in heart thinking one thing
Rom 15:5 - God grant you to think in harmony with one another
Jn 17:17-23 - I pray that they may be one, as we are one
Jn 17:23 - that they may be brought to perfection as one
1Cor 12:13 - in one spirit we are baptized into one body
Rom 12:5 - we, though many, are one body in Christ
Eph 4:4 - one body, one Spirit, called to be one hope
Col 3:15 - the peace into which you were called in one body
Mt 16:18-19 - upon this rock I will build my Church (singular)

He must have meant the Church in Jerusalem then 🙂 - it is the only one in Acts 2. No local Churches are named there​

Mt 18:17 – tell it to THE Church; if he refuses to listen even to THE Church… (must be visible)

Apostolic Church
Jn 15;16 - Jesus chose special men to be his Apostles
Jn 20:21 - Jesus gave the Apostles his own mission
Lk 22:29-3 - Jesus gave them a kingdom
Mt 16:18 - Jesus built Church on Peter, the rock
Jn 10:16 - one shepherd to shepherd Christ’s sheep
Lk 22:32, Jn 21:17 - Peter appointed to be chief shepherd
Eph 4;11 - church leaders are hierarchical
1Tim 3:1, 8; 5:17 - identifies roles of bishops, priests, deacons
Tit 1:5 - commission for bishops to ordain priests

Authoritative Church

Infallible Church

Perpetual Church

[Two sections snipped because 5000 character limit exceeded]​

BUT - these quotations only support the Catholic case if one makes certain assumptions.

For example, Catholic attempts to lay exclusive claim to this can easily be undermined:

One could quite well have a Church which is visible, but has developed so as to have a clergy who are appointed not for life, but for a set time. Nothing in the NT makes such a thing impossible - it would certainly be one way for all Christians to be priests.

Nothing is said about bishops or teachers being permanent features of the Church: they might be taken to be constitutive of the Church in the same unique way as the Apostles are held to be - which is why there were no more Apostles. IOW - there is no reason to insist that the Church must be episcopal in the same way for all time: One could perfectly well argue that because Christ is the “Episcopos of your souls” (Hebrews 13), no human episcopoi are required.

The Church can be perpetual, without being visible.

None of the verses quoted, even when taken together, are as convincing as might be hoped - because that was then, and this is now; and there is no reason in the Bible why the shortcomings of the CC since their times should stop some other part of Christendom being chosen instead of the CC. The Book of Revelation, chapter three, could be understood in this way. Nothing is promised to the CC - only to the Church. The Bible does not identify them - we do, because our Tradition does.

The point is, argument from Scripture alone will not show that any one Church today, CC or otherwise, is the Church of the Apostles.There are too many assumptions, and too many gaps in the reasoning. That is why other things are needed for one’s case to look convincing, such as a solid understanding of Church history, ecclesiology, and much more. ##
 
AMEN!!! In my former Baptist faith, we talked all day long about a “personal relationship with Jesus.” But the Sacraments, devotions and liturgy of the Catholic Church have made me feel closer to Jesus than I have EVER felt before. Period.👍
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Eden:
The Sacraments, the intercession of Mary and the saints, the Eucharist, the Rosary, the Mass, the Bible: all of these things are a means to draw us closer to Christ.

You seem to think they distract us from Christ but quite the contrary. They enhance our relationship with Him. He is the center of the faith. The Church is the Bride of Christ.
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## He must have meant the Church in Jerusalem then 🙂 - it is the only one in Acts 2. No local Churches are named there ## ## [Two sections snipped because 5000 character limit exceeded]

BUT - these quotations only support the Catholic case if one makes certain assumptions.

For example, Catholic attempts to lay exclusive claim to this can easily be undermined:

One could quite well have a Church which is visible, but has developed so as to have a clergy who are appointed not for life, but for a set time. Nothing in the NT makes such a thing impossible - it would certainly be one way for all Christians to be priests.

Nothing is said about bishops or teachers being permanent features of the Church: they might be taken to be constitutive of the Church in the same unique way as the Apostles are held to be - which is why there were no more Apostles. IOW - there is no reason to insist that the Church must be episcopal in the same way for all time: One could perfectly well argue that because Christ is the “Episcopos of your souls” (Hebrews 13), no human episcopoi are required.

The Church can be perpetual, without being visible.

None of the verses quoted, even when taken together, are as convincing as might be hoped - because that was then, and this is now; and there is no reason in the Bible why the shortcomings of the CC since their times should stop some other part of Christendom being chosen instead of the CC. The Book of Revelation, chapter three, could be understood in this way. Nothing is promised to the CC - only to the Church. The Bible does not identify them - we do, because our Tradition does.

The point is, argument from Scripture alone will not show that any one Church today, CC or otherwise, is the Church of the Apostles.There are too many assumptions, and too many gaps in the reasoning. That is why other things are needed for one’s case to look convincing, such as a solid understanding of Church history, ecclesiology, and much more. ##

Trivia question for you:
Who compiled your source (Sacred Scripture)?

After you answer that, and then realize that before many teachings were written, they were passed-on orally, you should be able to see that the “sola scriptura” notion is incomplete.

Hence, the Church alive today adhering to the two sources in their proper and legitimate form (Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition), does, in fact, hold the fullness of Christ’s intentions.
 
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Mickey:
Subjective experiences are not equivalent to facts. 😦

Faith, hope, and love

That puts the kibosh on the Apostles then - why should we listen to their experience: their experience of the Risen Christ ?​

“Subjective experiences are not equivalent to facts” - not even those of the Apostles. We have only their word for it they were not hallucinating. Those Christians who rely on “objectivity” and on nothing else, are able to do so only because they do not have to meet the Apostles. For if they had lived in the days of the Apostles and met them, in the the year 35, say, they would have only their “subjective experience” to go o: they would have had to meet the Apostles in their, the Apostles’, human subjectivity as persons like themselves, the insisters on objectivity.

And that experience of the Risen Christ is what qualified them to preach of the Resurrection in the first place - they knew that Jesus Christ was not a desiccated stiff, because they had encountered Him in the splendour of His Resurrection.

That is why experience is so important. Otherwise, Jesus is just some guy who went around doing good 2000 years ago, and not a Living, known, saving, experienced Friend and Lord. Otherwise, he is just some guy we have to kow-tow to for no very obvious reason except Tradition.

I’m with Doreen on this - experience, subjectivity, are simply not able to be cut out of Christianity and Christian living. They are so far from being unimportant, that they are absolutely vital to it. ##
 
Agrazing Mace:
Trivia question for you:
Who compiled your source (Sacred Scripture)?

After you answer that, and then realize that before many teachings were written, they were passed-on orally, you should be able to see that the “sola scriptura” notion is incomplete.

Hence, the Church alive today adhering to the two sources in their proper and legitimate form (Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition), does, in fact, hold the fullness of Christ’s intentions.

I’ll say that again for you 🙂

“The point is, argument from Scripture alone will not show that any one Church today, CC or otherwise, is the Church of the Apostles.There are too many assumptions, and too many gaps in the reasoning. That is why other things are needed for one’s case to look convincing, such as a solid understanding of Church history, ecclesiology, and much more.”

I’m not arguing for Sola Scriptura in that sense (whether it is valid in some other sense, is not the point, so may be ignored for now).

In fact, I am saying that using the Bible alone does not make the OP’s point - I suggest you take it up with him, for he is the one using the Bible to try proving the sole legitimacy of the CC. It can’t be proved from the Bible alone, as my first post explained. So I don’t know what we are disagreeing about. ##
 
Mickey said:
**The chief cause of criticism and slander is pride and egotism, for man thinks himself better [than others]
. For this reason it is very beneficial for a person to think of himself as smaller than all, so that he sees the brother as better, in order that he may, with the help of God, be delivered from this evil. **

Elder Ephraim of Philotheou Mount Athos, "Counsels from the HolyMountain**" **

The mercy of God supports all of us, but if we are proud, God will lift off His grace and we will become worse than the others.

Elder Ephraim of Philotheou Mount Athos, "Counsels from the HolyMountain**"**

.…inevitably those who put on a show of holiness for the sake of self-display not only fail to achieve anything through their false piety, but also are wounded by their conscience.

St. Maximos the Confessor (First Century on Theology no. 19)


**…those who are a law unto themselves cannot escape conceit. **

St. Gregory of Sinai (On Silence and Prayer no. 8)

**A hypocrite, hunting after the glory that comes from an apparent righteousness, is untroubled so long as he thinks that he escapes notice. But when he is detected, he utters streams of imprecation, imagining that by abusing others he can hide his own deformity. **

St. Maximos the Confessor (First Century on Theology no. 23)

This is merely your reaction to them - IOW, your experience of them.​

Why should Doreen listen to their experience, or to that of Catholics, if experience is so contemptible ? The case against what she says is completely illogical. It boils down to this: Catholic experience of being helped what the Saints say, is valid - Protestant experience of being helped by the grace of Christ, has no validity.

This is to split Christ in two, because the grace of Christ in His Saints in the past, is the very same grace as the grace He gives to his saints in the present - for all Christians are saints in some way or other, if onlty because they are called to holiness in Christ. He cannot be divided against Himself. ##
 
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Eden:
Oh, well the Church is “The Word of God” only. The “Word of God” comes down to us through both Tradition and Scripture. It’s called the “deposit of faith” and it has been handed down through our bishops through “apostolic succession”.

I assume you agree the Bible does not say “Bible only”.

How can Tradition possibly be the Word of God ? 😦

It is not Christ, and it is not the Bible, and it is not inspired.

Trent (for instance) does not call Tradition the Word of God. I wouldn’t mind betting this is a very modern doctrine. come from who-knows-where.

AFAIK the earliest use of the time for Tradition is in Vatican II, in Dei Verbum 10

intratext.com/IXT/ENG0037/_P3.HTM
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## How can Tradition possibly be the Word of God ? 😦

It is not Christ, and it is not the Bible, and it is not inspired.

Trent (for instance) does not call Tradition the Word of God. I wouldn’t mind betting this is a very modern doctrine. come from who-knows-where.

AFAIK the earliest use of the time for Tradition is in Vatican II, in Dei Verbum 10

intratext.com/IXT/ENG0037/_P3.HTM

I knew the next one was for me! How’d I know that? 😛

Tradition comes to us through Christ and the Apostles. The Apostles taught the Word of God and it comes down to us through the “deposit of faith” (which includes both Tradition and Scripture). Did you think Church Tradition was of man?

From CA: **Furthermore, Catholics distinguish capital “T” Tradition, which comes from God, either through Christ or the apostles (Luke 10:16), from lower-case “t” human traditions or customs. While the latter may (although need not) contradict the Word of God, the former cannot, and it is capital “T” Tradition about which Catholicism is principally concerned. **

**Not only is there a difference between Tradition originating with God and traditions understood as human customs, there’s also a distinction between Tradition as divinely revealed truth not explicitly found in Scripture and, more broadly, Tradition as the whole apostolic faith as passed down from the apostles (2 Thess. 2:15).
**

catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9112chap.asp
 
Gottle of Geer:
Trent (for instance) does not call Tradition the Word of God. I wouldn’t mind betting this is a very modern doctrine. come from who-knows-where.

AFAIK the earliest use of the time for Tradition is in Vatican II, in Dei Verbum 10
The Church Fathers, who were links in that chain of succession, recognized the necessity of the Traditions that had been handed down from the apostles and guarded them scrupulously, as the following quotations show:

Pope Clement I

Then the reverence of the law is chanted, and the grace of the prophets is known, and the faith of the Gospels is established, and the Tradition of the apostles is preserved, and the grace of the Church exults. (*Letter to the Corinthians *11 [A.D. 80])

Papias

Papias [A.D. 120], who is now mentioned by us, affirms that he received the sayings of the apostles from those who accompanied them, and he moreover asserts that he heard in person Aristion and the presbyter John. Accordingly he mentions them frequently by name, and in his writings gives their Traditions [concerning Jesus]. . . . [There are] other passages of his in which he relates some miraculous deeds, stating that he acquired the knowledge of them from Tradition. (Fragment in Eusebius, *Church History *3:39 [A.D. 312])

Eusebius of Caesarea

At that time [A.D. 150] there flourished in the Church Hegesippus, whom we know from what has gone before, and Dionysius, bishop of Corinth, and another bishop, Pinytus of Crete, and besides these, Philip, and Apollinarius, and Melito, and Musanus, and Modestus, and finally, Irenaeus. From them has come down to us in writing, the sound and orthodox faith received from Tradition. (Church History 4:21)

Irenaeus

As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless,** the authority of the Tradition is one and the same** (*Against Heresies *1:10:2 [A.D. 189])

Irenaeus

That is why it is surely necessary to avoid them [heretics], while cherishing with the utmost diligence the things pertaining to the Church, and to lay hold of the Tradition of truth. . . . What if the apostles had not in fact left writings to us? Would it not be necessary to follow the order of Tradition, which was handed down to those to whom they entrusted the Churches? (ibid., 3:4:1)

Irenaeus

It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the Tradition of the apostles which has been made known throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors to our own times-men who neither knew nor taught anything like these heretics rave about.

But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who . . . assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the Tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles.

With this church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree-that is, all the faithful in the whole world-and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic Tradition. (ibid., 3:3:1-2)

More here: catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0104frs.asp
 
Gottle:
This is to split Christ in two, because the grace of Christ in His Saints in the past, is the very same grace as the grace He gives to his saints in the present - for all Christians are saints in some way or other, if onlty because they are called to holiness in Christ. He cannot be divided against Himself.
As Catholics we distinguish between saints on earth and the saints in heaven. We are saints in the making on earth, while those in heaven are saints who have been perfected in faith, hope, and love (cf. 1 Cor. 13:13).
 
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Eden:
The Church has never taught that the power of these physical things comes from any source other than God.
Thanks for your answer : so it confirms my idea that sometimes there is a big difference between what your church teaches and what people make of it …
 
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St.Eric:
The sacrementals (in this case medals) have NO power in and of themselves. Rather, it is God’s grace working through the physical object. Just as Jesus used Mud made from dirt and his own spit to make a blind man see. The mud itself had no power. It was Jesus working his grace through the mud. Or when the woman was healed when she touched Jesus’ robe. The robe itself did not heal her but his grace working through that physical object and her faith in that fact. The bible and the world are full of examples of God’s grace working through physical objects. To believe that the object itself has power is not only superstitious, but also idolatry.
Well, I didn’t dare to say …idolatry, but that’s what I think …( in some cases )
 
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DARichards:
Quite alright…As a wise friend told me once, “just pray to the Holy Spirit for revelation…”
Thanks for your answer …
 
Agrazing Mace said:
kujo313
“I NEVER want to belong to a church that I can relate to or feel comfortable in. I want to know that I am a sinner just as ALL have sinned and falled short of the Glory of the Lord. I want to know that Jesus lived a sinless life and died for my sins so that I may be right with God if I accept His sacrifice.
The church I belong to does NOT have a parton saint for this and for that. We pray to God, through the Holy Spirit, in the name of Jesus.
As for Christ’s intentions, did you not read in Luke when a woman said “blessed is the womb who bore you…”, Jesus said, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
Blessed is Mary, Mark, Luke, John, Matthew, Paul, Timothy, and others because they heard the word of God and obeyed. Not one is put ahead of the other. We will all sit beside Jesus on His throne (Rev 3).”

You said:
“Did you not read in Luke when a woman said ‘blessed is the womb who bore you…’, Jesus said, ‘Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it’?’”.

Come on, now. pump your brakes, sir. Why the arrogance? I will pray that you take the blinders off at some point in the future.

First, let me acknowledge your failed sarcasm by saying “yes”, I have read Luke. Hopefully, this gives me more points on your scale.

Second, I will shock you by saying that I agree with you in regard to “blessed is Mary, Mark, Luke…” etc. They were all great, in some form or fashion. It’s just that Mary should have a special place of honor (not worship) because of her “closeness” to Christ. For one not to see that she had a more intimate relationship with Him than most needs a touch of humility and simple intuition.

Third, there’s nothing like taking things out of context. Please re-read the Gospels in their entirety. Understand they are divinely-inspired writings from the hands of men. Next, acquaint yourself with the fact that different parts of the Gospels are speaking to different audiences that need to hear a message in a different manner than other audiences.

Oh yeah, and of course, those who have properly-prepared themselves durig their earthly existence will sit next to Jesus on His throne.

Again, all I ask is that you attempt to educate yourself on the Catholic viewpoint objectively. Begin with an open-mind. It seems you are bent to prove it wrong, and in doing so, you are missing the big picture.

God bless.

I did educate myself. The more I know, the more I wished I didn’t know. Popes in the past have called Mary “Queen of Heaven” and “Queen of the Universe”. That is not so, nor was it what she wanted.
I’ve found booklets of the “Holy Baby” and prayers to him.

All blasphemous. Jesus said that God is a Spirit. He always was and is.
 
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