To Protestants: Why aren't you Catholic?

[St.Eric]

kujo313:

This “faith” that you speak of is not the “faith” in Jesus Christ.
First of all, I do not have faith in the infallability of the pope seeing that it was Peter (the so-called "first ‘pope’ ") who, after “given the keys”, DENIED Jesus THREE TIMES! It was Peter, also, who was undeniablly MARRIED.
According to the catholic religion, popes are not to be married. Yet, Peter was.
If, then, Peter was to be taken seriously when he spoke, I do see in the Gospels and in his writings just what he wanted to say.

Peter’s actions and words contradict some of the current teachings and traditions of the catholic religion. Had God changed His mind throughout the years? Or has there been some bad decisions throughout the years?

sigh You have much to learn young Padwa.

 

[St.Eric]

kujo313:

yes. in cathecism, attending masses, having a deacon as an uncle, comparing catholic the catholic religion to the Bible.

We all know cathecism classes can be lacking at best and I think you have admitted as much.

We all know that many people attend masses as “dead zombies” for lack of a better comparison.

and as far as having an uncle as a deacon. Well, that does not mean alot. I have several uncles who I only have any contact with once in a couple of years, and then we really don’t get into any serious issues like religion. So, for all we know, the uncle of yours who is a deacon, has never really taken the time to talk to you about the faith.

Ya gotta do better than that.

 

[kujo313]

sigh You have much to learn young Padwa.

Please explain. I’ve prayed. I’ve meditated. I’ve discussed it. I want to hear YOUR interpretation.

 

[onesimplemind]

kujo313:

This “faith” that you speak of is not the “faith” in Jesus Christ.

The “faith” of what you speak of is actually the “faith” that you have the infallible understanding of Christian truth. Do you? I wonder how many Christians throughout history agree with your views?

 

[kujo313]

onesimplemind:

The “faith” of what you speak of is actually the “faith” that you have the infallible understanding of Christian truth. Do you? I wonder how many Christians throughout history agree with your views?

Well, I looked it up in Scripture and it’s in there. If somebody in history contradicted it, I concider that “any other gospel” that Paul warned about.
If you looked up YOUR faith in Scripture, and if it’s in there, and nobody contradicted yours, either, then what?

Just because mine is not like yours, does it make it wrong?

Let’s just say that both of the places of worship that we go to have roots in Scripture with no contradictions to the Gospel. But in yours, your “pope” said a few years ago that: “The Catholic Church has the exclusive on salvation.”

Does that make it so? How can he say that seeing that BOTH places is rooted in the Word?

You follow your pope, I’ll follow Jesus. According to 1 Corinthians 1: 12-13 we should not be quarrelling.

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

This “faith” that you speak of is not the “faith” in Jesus Christ.

St. Augustine was not talking about Protestant faith. There was only one Christian faith at the time and it was Catholic. The quote is referrring to the loss of faith in what Christ taught through His Church.

 

[Eden]

First of all, I do not have faith in the infallability of the pope seeing that it was Peter (the so-called "first ‘pope’ ") who, after “given the keys”, DENIED Jesus THREE TIMES!

Now, this is just getting loony! :whacky:

Am I reading this correctly? You believe Jesus was a fool and made a mistake when He gave Peter the keys? That He could not foresee that Peter would deny Him?

O.K. I’ll just come right out and say it, the above reads like words from the devil himself.

Edited to add:

1 & 2 Peter - for example, Peter denied Christ, he was rebuked by his greatest bishop (Paul), and yet he wrote two infallible encyclicals. Further, if Peter could teach infallibly by writing, why could he not also teach infallibly by preaching? And why couldn’t his successors so teach as well?

www.scripturecatholic.com

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

It was Peter, also, who was undeniablly MARRIED.
According to the catholic religion, popes are not to be married. Yet, Peter was.

“Not all can accept this word, but only those to whom it is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of God. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it” (Matt. 19:11–12).

The tradition of celibacy in the Latin Rite is completely Biblical. Christ was celibate as was Paul. You may be unaware that some rites within the Church allow for married clergy. In the Latin Rite, Protestant converts who are married and desire to be a priest are not asked to follow the tradition of celibacy.

 

[admiral]

Why am I not a Catholic?

Because the faith that I see displayed from Catholicism [sp] is not the faith that I see displayed in the bible.

In Catholicism, I see a display that encourages religious forms and religions symbolism and mystisicm…

What I see in the bible is an emphasis on believing that the Jesus is the Messiah and that this God has a personal relationship with you that is not mystical at all.

So, does that answer your questions?

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

Just because mine is not like yours, does it make it wrong?

Yes. It makes it wrong. Yours is wrong. The elements of truth come from the True faith. The elements in your faith that are in error are those that contradict the Church and are creations of men post-Reformation.

The Church is Infallible and Supernatural
Isa. 35:8, 54:13-17 - this prophecy refers to the Church as the Holy Way where sons will be taught by God and they will not err. The Church has been given the gift of infallibility when teaching about faith and morals, where her sons are taught directly by God and will not err. This gift of infallibility means that the Church is prevented from teaching error by the power of the Holy Spirit (it does not mean that Church leaders do not sin!)

Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14,22 - the early Church is identified as the “Way” prophesied in Isaiah 35:8 where fools will not err therein.

Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 - Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Also, since the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.

Matt. 16:19 - for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.

Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

Matt. 28:20 - Jesus promises that He will be with the Church always. Jesus’ presence in the Church assures infallible teaching on faith and morals. With Jesus present, we can never be deceived.

Mark 8:33 - non-Catholics sometimes use this verse to down play Peter’s authority. This does not make sense. In this verse, Jesus rebukes Peter to show the import of His Messianic role as the Savior of humanity. Moreover, at this point, Peter was not yet the Pope with the keys, and Jesus did not rebuke Peter for his teaching. Jesus rebuked Peter for his lack of understanding.

Luke 10:16 - whoever hears you, hears me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me. Jesus is very clear that the bishops of the Church speak with Christ’s infallible authority.

Luke 22:32 - Jesus prays for Peter, that his faith may not fail. Jesus’ prayer for Peter’s faith is perfectly efficacious, and this allows Peter to teach the faith without error (which means infallibly).

John 11:51-52 - some non-Catholics argue that sinners cannot have the power to teach infallibly. But in this verse, God allows Caiaphas to prophesy infallibly, even though he was evil and plotted Jesus’ death. God allows sinners to teach infallibly, just as He allows sinners to become saints. As a loving Father, He exalts His children, and is bound by His own justice to give His children a mechanism to know truth from error.

 

[Eden]

Gen. to Deut.; Psalms; Paul - Moses and maybe Paul were murderers and David was an adulterer and murderer, but they also wrote infallibly. God uses us sinful human beings because when they respond to His grace and change their lives, we give God greater glory and His presence is made more manifest in our sinful world.

John 14:16 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would be with the Church forever. The Spirit prevents the teaching of error on faith and morals. It is guaranteed because the guarantee comes from God Himself who cannot lie.

John 14:26 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would teach the Church (the apostles and successors) all things regarding the faith. This means that the Church can teach us the right moral positions on such things as in vitro fertilization, cloning and other issues that are not addressed in the Bible. After all, these issues of morality are necessary for our salvation, and God would not leave such important issues to be decided by us sinners without His divine assistance.

John 16:12 - Jesus had many things to say but the apostles couldn’t bear them at that point. This demonstrates that the Church’s infallible doctrine develops over time. All public Revelation was completed with the death of the last apostle, but the doctrine of God’s Revelation develops as our minds and hearts are able to welcome and understand it. God teaches His children only as much as they can bear, for their own good.

John 16:13 - Jesus promises that the Spirit will “guide” the Church into all truth. Our knowledge of the truth develops as the Spirit guides the Church, and this happens over time.

1 Cor. 2:13 – Paul explains that what the ministers teach is taught, not by human wisdom, but by the Spirit. The ministers are led to interpret and understand the spiritual truths God gives them over time.

Eph. 4:13,15 – Paul indicates that attaining to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God to mature manhood is a process. We are to grow up in every way into Christ. Doctrine (which means “teaching”) develops as we understand God’s Revelation.

Acts 15:27-28 - the apostles know that their teaching is being guided by the Holy Spirit. He protects the Church from deception.

Gal. 2:11-14 - non-Catholics sometimes use this verse to diminish Peter’s evident authority over the Church. This is misguided. In this verse, Paul does not oppose Peter’s teaching, but his failure to live by it. Infallibility (teaching without error) does not mean impeccability (living without sinning). Peter was the one who taught infallibly on the Gentile’s salvation in Acts 10,11. With this rebuke, Paul is really saying “Peter, you are our leader, you teach infallibly, and yet your conduct is inconsistent with these facts. You of all people!” The verse really underscores, and not diminishes, the importance of Peter’s leadership in the Church.

Eph. 3:10 - the wisdom of God is known, even to the intellectually superior angels, through the Church (not the Scriptures). This is an incredible verse, for it tells us that God’s infinite wisdom comes to us through the Church. For that to happen, the Church must be protected from teaching error on faith and morals (or she wouldn’t be endowed with the wisdom of God).

Eph. 3:9 - this, in fact, is a mystery hidden for all ages - that God manifests His wisdom through one infallible Church for all people.

Eph. 3:20 - God’s glory is manifested in the Church by the power of the Spirit that works within the Church’s leaders. As a Father, God exalts His children to roles of leadership within the body of Christ.

Eph. 5:23-27, Col. 1:18 - Christ is the head of the Church, His Bride, for which He died to make it Holy and without blemish. There is only one Church, just as Christ only has one Bride.

Eph. 5:32- Paul calls the Church a “mystery.” This means that the significance of the Church as the kingdom of God in our midst cannot be understood by reason alone. Understanding the Church also requires faith. “Church” does not mean a building of believers. That is not a mystery. Non-Catholics often view church as mere community, but not the supernatural mystery of Christ physically present among us.

1 Thess. 5:21 - Paul commands us to test everything. But we must have something against which to test. This requires one infallible guide that is available to us, and this guide is the Catholic Church, whose teachings on faith and morals have never changed.

1 Tim. 3:15 - Paul says the apostolic Church (not Scripture) is the pillar and foundation of the truth. But for the Church to be the pinnacle and foundation of truth, she must be protected from teaching error, or infallible. She also must be the Catholic Church, whose teachings on faith and morals have not changed for 2,000 years. God loves us so much that He gave us a Church that infallibly teaches the truth so that we have the fullness of the means of salvation in His only begotten Son.

 

[Eden]

1 John 4:6 – John writes that whoever knows God “listens to us” (the bishops and successors to the apostles). Then John writes “This is the way we discern truth and error. John does not say “reading the Bible is the way we discern truth and error.” But if listening to mere human beings helps us discern truth and error, God would have had to endow his chosen leaders with the special gift of infallibility, so that they would be prevented from teaching error.

Matt. to Rev. - we must also note that not all Christian doctrines are explicit in Scripture (for example, the dogma of the Blessed Trinity). However, infallibility is strongly inferred from the foregoing passages. Non-Catholic Christians should ask themselves why they accept the Church’s teaching on the three persons of the Trinity, the two natures of Christ in one divine person, and the New Testament canon of Scripture (all defined by the Catholic Church), but not other teachings regarding the Eucharist, Mary, the saints, and purgatory?

www.scripturecatholic.com

 

[Eden]

admiral:

Because the faith that I see displayed from Catholicism [sp] is not the faith that I see displayed in the bible.

I would encourage you to read the Catechism to clear up any confusion between what you see displayed and what the Church teaches. The last link in my signature will take you there.

In Catholicism, I see a display that encourages religious forms and religions symbolism and mystisicm…

Mysticism:

The belief that one can achieve direct consciousness of God or truth through meditation and intuition. In mystic practices, one attempts to merge with God or the source of creation.

Mystical:

Of or having a spiritual reality or import not apparent to the intelligence or senses.

Of, relating to, or stemming from direct communion with ultimate reality or God

Enigmatic; obscure

Of or relating to mystic rites or practices.

What I see in the bible is an emphasis on believing that the Jesus is the Messiah and that this God has a personal relationship with you that is not mystical at all.

Fascinating.

 

[admiral]

1 John 4:6 – John writes that whoever knows God “listens to us” (the bishops and successors to the apostles). Then John writes “This is the way we discern truth and error. John does not say “reading the Bible is the way we discern truth and error.” But if listening to mere human beings helps us discern truth and error, God would have had to endow his chosen leaders with the special gift of infallibility, so that they would be prevented from teaching error.

1 John 4:6 (New American Standard Bible)
6We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Well, that is interesting as to just who the “us” is refering to…When John wrote this, there was NO Catholic church at the time. It is, in my mind, the height of adacity for a ‘church’ to superimpose itself between the worshiper and God. In fact, it is blasphemous in my mind.

Matt. to Rev. - we must also note that not all Christian doctrines are explicit in Scripture (for example, the dogma of the Blessed Trinity). However, infallibility is strongly inferred from the foregoing passages. Non-Catholic Christians should ask themselves why they accept the Church’s teaching on the three persons of the Trinity, the two natures of Christ in one divine person, and the New Testament canon of Scripture (all defined by the Catholic Church), but not other teachings regarding the Eucharist, Mary, the saints, and purgatory?

The Trinity, I can accept because there are a number of passages that I think pertain tothe concept of the Trinity…But as for the Eucharist, it is a symbol that has been glorified & mystified beyond it’s meaning
Mary is nearly a Goddess, and is sinless…Not what I see in Scripture.
The Saints are glorified to the exclusion of a personal Savior.
Purgatory is a myth not found in Scripture…

Those are my opinons…

 

[admiral]

I would encourage you to read the Catechism to clear up any confusion between what you see displayed and what the Church teaches. The last link in my signature will take you there.

I have…and I have a copy of it…It only confirms my suspeciions…

Mysticism:

The belief that one can achieve direct consciousness of God or truth through meditation and intuition. In mystic practices, one attempts to merge with God or the source of creation.

That’s one way of looking at it…

Is it any more mystical than claiming that food you eat become the actual body of Christ in your stomach, even though autopsies reveal NO meat, nor human flesh in the stomach, just bread and wine???

Fancinating, indeed…

 

[Eden]

admiral:

I have…and I have a copy of it…It only confirms my suspeciions…

Start a new thread on some of those suspicions. I’ll participate.

That’s one way of looking at it…

Is it any more mystical than claiming that food you eat become the actual body of Christ in your stomach, even though autopsies reveal NO meat, nor human flesh in the stomach, just bread and wine???

Fancinating, indeed…

Autopsies? The teaching on this is that Christ’s presence only remains for the first 15 minutes or so after receiving.

Is viewing Jesus as a buddy more mystical than the Real Presence? No.

 

[admiral]

The sacraments of Christian initiation - Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist - lay the foundations of every Christian life. "The sharing in the divine nature given to men through the grace of Christ bears a certain likeness to the origin, development, and nourishing of natural life. The faithful are born anew by Baptism, strengthened by the sacrament of Confirmation, and receive in the Eucharist the food of eternal life. By means of these sacraments of Christian initiation, they thus receive in increasing measure the treasures of the divine life and advance toward the perfection of charity."3

Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

Romans 3:28 (New American Standard Bible)

28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Looks to me like there is a big discrepancy between what the Catholic church teaches and what the bible teaches…

Autopsies? The teaching on this is that Christ’s presence only remains for the first 15 minutes or so after receiving.

Ah, the 'food of eternal life" lasts only 15 minutes in a sinners stomach…Real conditional salvation message you got there…

 

[Eden]

admiral:

Romans 3:28 (New American Standard Bible)

28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

The Catholic Church does not teach that we earn our salvation by our own efforts. The Church teaches that we can be saved only by God’s grace. It does teach that we have to work on our salvation.

The same apostle who wrote Galatians also wrote Philippians. Paul says, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil. 2:12).

In James 2:24, the inspired apostle denies that justification is from faith alone. The Bible does not contradict itself. You are misinterpreting Romans 3:28.

Looks to me like there is a big discrepancy between what the Catholic church teaches and what the bible teaches…

There is no doctrine of the Church which contradicts the Bible. Not one.

Ah, the 'food of eternal life" lasts only 15 minutes in a sinners stomach…Real conditional salvation message you got there…

For the first 1500 years no Christian believed the Eucharist was a symbol. The grace from Christ’s presence remains to carry us but I don’t know why you believed Christ physically remained present within us forever after receiving Communion. If that were the case, why would we receive Holy Communion more than once?

Are you from one of the Protestant faiths that believes the testimony of early Christians is valuable for determining what early Christians believed?

The earlier Protestants do. The later ones don’t. From your philosophy of Jesus as your friend, I am guessing you are Evangelical. Is that correct?

 

[admiral]

The Catholic Church does not teach that we earn our salvation by our own efforts. The Church teaches that we can be saved only by God’s grace. It does teach that we have to work on our salvation.

Whoa there,…I just quoted from the CC, and it DOES say that you can earn “MERIT” thru the sacriments and that thru the sacriments, you can attain ANYTHING needed, release from puragoty, indulgences, even eternal life…Contrast that to your biblical quotes, and you have a totally different message from the bible…that is,1] by accepting/believing the sacrifice of Jesus, you automatically have eternal life, 2] this belief will change your behavior [and thus your works].

Paul says, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil. 2:12).

In James 2:24, the inspired apostle denies that justification is from faith alone. The Bible does not contradict itself. You are misinterpreting Romans 3:28.

No, I am not… I never said the bible contradict itself…I did imply that the bible contradicts the CC.

There is no doctrine of the Church which contradicts the Bible. Not one.

Well, now you see one…There’s more, if you will look and take off the CC specticles…

For the first 1500 years no Christian believed the Eucharist was a symbol. The grace from Christ’s presence remains to carry us but I don’t know why you believed Christ physically remained present within us forever after receiving Communion. If that were the case, why would we receive Holy Communion more than once?

I didn’t say that…I said that the supposed “holy communion bread” that is to change into literally Christ’s body and be assimilated, thus never really changes into any semblance of meat or human flesh. This is based upon autopsys reports from dead Catholics involved in motor vehicles accidents [MVAs] who resently underwent the Eucharist.

And it is my impression that the Eucharist is given so that you have ‘holy flesh’ assembled into your body so that you can enter into heaven…[another strange teaching contrary to the bible].

Are you from one of the Protestant faiths that believes the testimony of early Christians is valuable for determining what early Christians believed?

I would say that I am one of those Christians who studied to show myself approved in the faith of Christ…You have my permission to place that where ever it fits into your thinking…

The earlier Protestants do. The later ones don’t. From your philosophy of Jesus as your friend, I am guessing you are Evangelical. Is that correct?

If that makes me “evangelical”, then I guess I am evangelical…

 

[Eden]

admiral:

Whoa there,…I just quoted from the CC, and it DOES say that you can earn “MERIT” thru the sacriments and that thru the sacriments, you can attain ANYTHING needed, release from puragoty, indulgences, even eternal life…

You are misinterpreting what the Church teaches. I can not merit anything. This can only come through God’s grace.

“Merit is possible only by God’s grace and only for the person who already has been justified by grace.”

This teaching was summarized at the Council of Trent (1546) in response to the Reformers’ rejection of merit. The Council taught that “none of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification; for if it is by grace, it is not now by works; otherwise, as the Apostle [Paul] says, grace is no more grace” (Decree on Justification 8, citing Rom. 11:6).

catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9403frs.asp

Paul tells us “For [God] will reward every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in working good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. There will be . . . glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality” (Rom. 2:6–11; cf. Gal. 6:6–10).

Contrast that to your biblical quotes, and you have a totally different message from the bible…that is,1] by accepting/believing the sacrifice of Jesus, you automatically have eternal life, 2] this belief will change your behavior [and thus your works].

It is not Biblical to believe, that by accepting/believing the sacrifice of Jesus, an individual will automatically have eternal life. Salvation is a gift that can freely be rejected by the individual.

Paul knows this, "“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil. 2:12).

I did imply that the bible contradicts the CC.

Again, I assure you that no doctrine of the Church contradicts the Bible.

Well, now you see one…There’s more, if you will look and take off the CC specticles…

These Catholic spectacles are from Christ. He founded my Church.

I didn’t say that…I said that the supposed “holy communion bread” that is to change into literally Christ’s body and be assimilated, thus never really changes into any semblance of meat or human flesh.

“Then he said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing.’ Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.’” (Jn 20:27-29)

This is based upon autopsys reports from dead Catholics involved in motor vehicles accidents [MVAs] who resently underwent the Eucharist.

“Underwent Eucharist”?

That must have been a fast autopsy, by the way!

And it is my impression that the Eucharist is given so that you have ‘holy flesh’ assembled into your body so that you can enter into heaven…[another strange teaching contrary to the bible].

Holy flesh? It’s Christ Himself. Do you not need Christ for your Salvation?

I would say that I am one of those Christians who studied to show myself approved in the faith of Christ…You have my permission to place that where ever it fits into your thinking…

This is gibberish. Can you tell me in plain English to which denomination you belong?

If that makes me “evangelical”, then I guess I am evangelical…

Nevermind - You’re Evangelical. Got it.