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Bill_Pick
Guest
Many HERE think the word “pray” means “worship.” So it makes sense that they think Catholics who “pray” to Mary actually “worship” her. Let’s look up the word “pray” in the dictionary. Here is what Webster’s says about the word pray:
(1) To utter petition to God … (2) To make a fervent request: PLEAD (3) To beseech: implore (4) to make a devout or earnest request for.
The first thing to notice is that the word “worship” is not included in the definition of “pray.” It does not mean “worship.” A prayer to Mary is clearly not a petition to God. Mary is not God, and there is not one faithful Catholic since the apostles who has said she is. So clearly it is not the first meaning. The English language is often limited in that we often have to use the same word to say different things. There are several meanings of the word “pray.” When Catholics pray to God they “utter a petition to God.” When they pray to Mary and the Saints they are making a “devout or earnest request for” prayers from Mary or the saints. In mediaeval times when a royal court official was asking something of a person who outranked him, he would say “I pray thee your majesty.” You have to say that in an English accent to get the full effect! The person was simply making a request in a polite manner. Catholics think Mary is a prayer warrior. That’s her job. We think she was given a full-time 24/7 prayer ministry. She said “all generations will call me Blessed” and “my soul magnifies the Lord” (Luke 1:46). Catholics think this is significant.Martin Luther said “The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.” (Sermon, September 1, 1522). There is a difference between veneration of Mary and worship of Jesus. John Pacheco says:
There is a great difference between veneration (“douleia” in Greek) and worship (“latreia”). The word “douleia” occurs 5 times in the Bible. (Rm 8:15, 21; Gal 4:24, 5:1; Heb 2:15) never does it refer to worship of God. The word “latreia” occurs 5 times but it always refers to God only. (Jn 16:2, Rm:9:4, 12:6, Heb 9:1,6) And there are plenty of Old Testament references that distinguish veneration from worship. “Then Moses went out to meet his father in law, and he bowed down and kissed him…” (Exo 18:7)…(also 1 Chron 29:20, 1 Sam 24:8)
Some say “Consecration” shows that Catholics worship Mary. The word “Consecrate” means to entrust. I entrust myself to my closest friends but only one is my Savior.
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mesl4
Guest
The prayer / petition / asking part is fine, it’s what Catholics say in those prayers when they praise her that I have a problem with. like “I kneel before you…most humble advocate…” and other things said in the litany that make me uncomfortable. Jesus is our most humble advocate. Jesus is our savior, Jesus is our prayer warrior. Jesus does it all. He wants us to be like him, use him as our model, not his other children/humans.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
i think that is what happened at the times of Noah. is it not?I feel the love in this persons post
However, please take note concerning the teaching of the RCC concerning the salvation and condemnation of those outside of the RCC.
ECCUMENICAL COUNCIL OF FLORENCE (1438-1445)
Session 11—4 February 1442
It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church.
I am going to hell based on this teaching; yet I am not; therefore this teaching must be in error.
If prayer is a form of worship, and it is, and you pray to Mary for divine intersession on behalf of someone, and RC’s do, then this is a form of worship not found in all of Scripture because there is only One intercessor between man and God, the man Christ Jesus. The only One who intercedes on out behalf in regards to prayer, because we don’t how to pray as we ought; is the Holy Spirit.
Goes with the old adage that if it looks like a duck, quacks likes a duck and swims like a duck, then it is a duck no matter what you claim by the use of semantics.
only those who got into the ark lived. is it not?
it is no different now. take serious the warning and listen to the what the Church is saying. humble yourselves. remember “Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.”
it is not easy but it is possible. show your sign of humility and stop trying to be the boss.
:bowdown2:
:byzsoc:
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adrift
Guest
Check back over the posts.
I believe I have answered you and not always with sarcasm, although it is something that is a problem for me and in the future I will sincerely try not to fall into that old habit.
I have, for the most part, enjoyed our exchanges. We disagree there would be no discussion if we didn’t.
You have not answered. You have pointed out that worship is the same as venerate because they are synonyms. Correct? I pointed out that love and admire are also synonyms. That is what you have not responded to.
Perhaps instead of talking of synonyms, you should define worship. We have two different dictionary definitions but you don’t seem to agree with them. So how would you define worship?
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Leeann
Guest
I guess I didn’t respond to that because the thread topic is about setting the record straight about not worshipping Mary…and as I did state before, it is only because the definition of both venerate and worship are given in the original opening question of this thread that I even addressed those.
I can also relate to not having questions answered…there are a few of my own that have gone unanswered along the way.
Difficult to do, without talking of synonyms!
What “two different dictionary definitions” for worship are you referring too Adrift…the one in the original thread question at the beginning or the one(s) from the 1913 reference you posted or the one from the Advent Ency. site that stated that “the worship given to Mary is hyperdulia”…just want to make sure of what I don’t seem to agree with.
To me personally - any action that is focussed on and gives all honour and glory to God.
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adrift
Guest
Difficult to do, without talking of synonyms!
What “two different dictionary definitions” for worship are you referring too Adrift…the one in the original thread question at the beginning or the one(s) from the 1913 reference you posted or the one from the Advent Ency. site that stated that “the worship given to Mary is hyperdulia”…just want to make sure of what I don’t seem to agree with.
To me personally - any action that is focussed on and gives all honour and glory to God.
All the definitions you mentioned.
Please clarify what is “All Honor”?
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Bill_Pick
Guest
What did the reformers (Martin Luther, John Calvin) believe regarding Mary?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Thank you for asking. I think this might be very instructive. I’ll start with my compilation of quotes from Luther and then give you individual posts by topic.
**Martin Luther **
On the Immaculate Conception of Mary
Probably the most astonishing Marian belief of Luther is his acceptance of Mary’s Immaculate Conception, which wasn’t even definitively proclaimed as dogma by the Catholic Church until 1854. Concerning this question there is some dispute, over the technical aspects of medieval theories of conception and the soul, and whether or not Luther later changed his mind. Even some eminent Lutheran scholars, however, such as Arthur Carl Piepkorn (1907-73) of Concordia Seminary in St. Louis, maintain his unswerving acceptance of the doctrine. Luther’s words follow:
“It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin.” (Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” December ?] 1527; from Hartmann Grisar, S.J., *Luther, *authorised translation from the German by E.M. Lamond; edited by Luigi Cappadelta, London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner, first edition, 1915, Vol. IV [of 6], p. 238; taken from the German Werke, Erlangen, 1826-1868, edited by J.G. Plochmann and J.A. Irmischer, 2nd ed. edited by L. Enders, Frankfurt, 1862 ff., 67 volumes; citation from 152, p. 58)
**“She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin - something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.” **(Personal {“Little”} Prayer Book, 1522)
Later references to the Immaculate Conception appear in his House sermon for Christmas (1533) and *Against the Papacy of Rome *(1545).
On Mary, Mother of all Christians
“It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother, Christ is his brother, God is his father.” (Sermon, Christmas, 1522)
On Honoring Mary
“[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.” (Sermon, Christmas, 1531)
“No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity.” (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537)
On Praying to Mary
“Our prayer should include the Mother of God . . . What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: “Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!” You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor . . . We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her . . . He who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Hail Mary.” (Personal Prayer Book, 1522)
“Whoever possesses a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation.” (Sermon, March 11, 1523)
On the Perpetual Virginity of Mary
“Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb…This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”
“Christ…was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him…I am inclined to agree with those who declare that ‘brothers’ really mean ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.”
“A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ…”
“Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity…When Matthew says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her…This babble…is without justification…he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.”
On the Assumption of Mary
In his sermon of August 15, 1522, the last time he preached on the Feast of the Assumption, he stated:
“There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ.”
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Early Protestants on the ASSUMPTION of Mary
Martin Luther
There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in Heaven. How it happened we do not know. (Martin Luther’s Works, vol 10, pg 268)****
Heinrich Bullinger (Early Protestant Reformer)
Elijah was transported body and soul in a chariot of fire; he was not buried in any Church bearing his name, but mounted up to heaven, so that…we might know what immortality and recompense God prepares for his faithful prophets and for his most outstanding and incomparable creatures…It is for this reason, we believe, that the pure and immaculate embodiment of the Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, the Temple of the Holy Spirit, that is to say her saintly body, was carried up to heaven by the angels.
Martin Luther
There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in Heaven. How it happened we do not know. (Martin Luther’s Works, vol 10, pg 268)****
Heinrich Bullinger (Early Protestant Reformer)
Elijah was transported body and soul in a chariot of fire; he was not buried in any Church bearing his name, but mounted up to heaven, so that…we might know what immortality and recompense God prepares for his faithful prophets and for his most outstanding and incomparable creatures…It is for this reason, we believe, that the pure and immaculate embodiment of the Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, the Temple of the Holy Spirit, that is to say her saintly body, was carried up to heaven by the angels.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Early Protestants on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary
Martin Luther (1483-1546)
“Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb…This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”
“Christ…was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him…I am inclined to agree with those who declare that ‘brothers’ really mean ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.”
“A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ…Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity.”
“Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity…When Matthew says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her…This babble…is without justification…he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.”
John Calvin (1509-1564)
“Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s ‘brothers’ are sometimes mentioned.”
“The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband…No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words…as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called ‘first-born’; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin…What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us…No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.”
“Under the word ‘brethren’ the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.”
Huldreich Zwingli (1484-1531)
“I have never thought, still less taught, or declared publicly, anything concerning the subject of the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our salvation, which could be considered dishonourable, impious, unworthy or evil…I believe with all my heart according to the word of holy gospel that this pure virgin bore for us the Son of God and that she remained, in the birth and after it, a pure and unsullied virgin, for eternity.”
Heinrich Bullinger (1504-1575)
“The Virgin Mary…completely sanctified by the grace and blood of her only Son and abundantly endowed by the gift of the Holy Spirit and preferred to all…now lives happily with Christ in heaven and is called and remains ever-Virgin and Mother of God.”
John Wesley (1703-1791)
“I believe…he [Jesus Christ] was born of the blessed Virgin, who, as well after as shebrought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.”
Martin Luther (1483-1546)
“Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb…This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”
“Christ…was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him…I am inclined to agree with those who declare that ‘brothers’ really mean ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.”
“A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ…Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity.”
“Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity…When Matthew says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her…This babble…is without justification…he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.”
John Calvin (1509-1564)
“Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s ‘brothers’ are sometimes mentioned.”
“The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband…No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words…as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called ‘first-born’; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin…What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us…No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.”
“Under the word ‘brethren’ the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.”
Huldreich Zwingli (1484-1531)
“I have never thought, still less taught, or declared publicly, anything concerning the subject of the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our salvation, which could be considered dishonourable, impious, unworthy or evil…I believe with all my heart according to the word of holy gospel that this pure virgin bore for us the Son of God and that she remained, in the birth and after it, a pure and unsullied virgin, for eternity.”
Heinrich Bullinger (1504-1575)
“The Virgin Mary…completely sanctified by the grace and blood of her only Son and abundantly endowed by the gift of the Holy Spirit and preferred to all…now lives happily with Christ in heaven and is called and remains ever-Virgin and Mother of God.”
John Wesley (1703-1791)
“I believe…he [Jesus Christ] was born of the blessed Virgin, who, as well after as shebrought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.”
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Randy_Carson
Guest
EARLY PROTESTANTS ON MARY, MOTHER OF GOD
Martin Luther
She became the Mother of God…on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child…Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God.
“A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ…Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity.”
Heinrich Bullinger (Early Protestant Reformer)
Elijah was transported body and soul in a chariot of fire; he was not buried in any Church bearing his name, but mounted up to heaven, so that…we might know what immortality and recompense God prepares for his faithful prophets and for his most outstanding and incomparable creatures…It is for this reason, we believe, that the pure and immaculate embodiment of the Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, the Temple of the Holy Spirit, that is to say her saintly body, was carried up to heaven by the angels.
Martin Luther
She became the Mother of God…on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child…Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God.
“A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ…Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity.”
Heinrich Bullinger (Early Protestant Reformer)
Elijah was transported body and soul in a chariot of fire; he was not buried in any Church bearing his name, but mounted up to heaven, so that…we might know what immortality and recompense God prepares for his faithful prophets and for his most outstanding and incomparable creatures…It is for this reason, we believe, that the pure and immaculate embodiment of the Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, the Temple of the Holy Spirit, that is to say her saintly body, was carried up to heaven by the angels.
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adrift
Guest
I am still waiting for a response from him. Kind of makes me think that he can’t provide one. Good Luck I hope he answers you.
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Leeann
Guest
Response Leeann:
What “two different dictionary definitions” for worship are you referring too Adrift…the one in the original thread question at the beginning or the one(s) from the 1913 reference you posted or the one from the Advent Ency. site that stated that “the worship given to Mary is hyperdulia”…just want to make sure of what I don’t seem to agree with.
Well, I’m trying to answer your question Adrift.
And you specifically stated “two different dictionary definitions” – that I don’t seem to agree with…
what are those “two” that you referred too?
Everything….praise….prayer….meditation….focused on Him and directly to Him.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
I think you may be right. The dogmas are MUCH older than that.
Well, we can trace the successors of Peter from Benedict XVI all the way back to Peter…how does this lineage fail?
Hmmm…since we know with certainty that Jesus promised to build a single Church on the Rock, that is, on Peter, what other Church do you propose as an alternative?
Since modern day scholars can compare the texts of many ancient manuscripts, it is possible for us to find these changes. Can you provide some examples with supporting documentation.
So, you also believe the Church was not protected from the “gates of Hell” as Jesus promised and that it fell into error needing reformation. Does this make Jesus a liar?
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adrift
Guest
Yes I did say two and you rightfully pointed out that there were more than two. I was referring to the 1913 and the modern Webster.
I am not sure by what you mean “all”. Does that mean that honor given to someone else: a teacher, fireman, soldier is being given what belongs to God? That you may not honor them or it would be worship?
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Leeann
Guest
We are talking “spiritual” here aren’t we….the way we are to worship God…in truth and spirit…
so that is what I mean by “all honour” focused on Him.
In the “earthly realm” … …I’ve never offered “spiritual” praise to a teacher, fireman or soldier and definitely haven’t prayed to - or meditated on any of them.
I will get back to you on the 1913 and Webster’s….after I get some things done and eat!
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Soutane
Guest
“In the “earthly realm” … …I’ve never offered “spiritual” praise to a teacher, fireman or soldier and definitely haven’t prayed to - or meditated on any of them.”
If you’ve ever asked any of the above to pray for you,or anyone else for that matter you most certainly have prayed to them as to pray means to ask.We meditate on the Mysteries of Christ for example those in the rosary.We also meditate on the example and goodness of the Saints.I have been known to meditate on the example and goodness of my 14 year old son.If you’ve ever offered praise to anyone how can it not be “spiritual”?To do otherwise strikes me as insincere.
I think that a lot of the problems and misunderstandings between Catholics and Non-Catholic Christians results from semantics and a misunderstanding of the meaning of the language that each other uses.For example,prayer.We are admonished to pray without ceasing which taken in its truest sense means to me to filter all things through God and one’s faith.Non-Catholics seem to regard prayer as worship,Catholics do not, although prayer CAN be part of worship which for us is participation in the mass.The ABSOLUTE in worship and adoration.Prayer to us is a devout conversation with God usually that of thanksgiving and/or entreaty.I’m sure that the Catholics here understand what I am saying,PRAY TELL?
If you’ve ever asked any of the above to pray for you,or anyone else for that matter you most certainly have prayed to them as to pray means to ask.We meditate on the Mysteries of Christ for example those in the rosary.We also meditate on the example and goodness of the Saints.I have been known to meditate on the example and goodness of my 14 year old son.If you’ve ever offered praise to anyone how can it not be “spiritual”?To do otherwise strikes me as insincere.
I think that a lot of the problems and misunderstandings between Catholics and Non-Catholic Christians results from semantics and a misunderstanding of the meaning of the language that each other uses.For example,prayer.We are admonished to pray without ceasing which taken in its truest sense means to me to filter all things through God and one’s faith.Non-Catholics seem to regard prayer as worship,Catholics do not, although prayer CAN be part of worship which for us is participation in the mass.The ABSOLUTE in worship and adoration.Prayer to us is a devout conversation with God usually that of thanksgiving and/or entreaty.I’m sure that the Catholics here understand what I am saying,PRAY TELL?
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adrift
Guest
I am trying to understand what you mean. I don’t understand what you mean by spiritual. I had to laugh when I looked up the word and that dictionary had a Negro song
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