T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Joining with codebilly and Soutane here. 
- Status
L
Leeann
Guest
Hi Soutane:
It doesn’t have to be that hard though if Jesus is the absolute focus of your worship and you are in a personal relationship with him. He doesn’t care how devout one may appear – or how many masses one attends – He chided the scribes and Pharisees, telling them that all their devoutness and adherence to their festivals and traditions meant nothing.
**Matthew 15:
1 Then came to him from Jerusalem scribes and Pharisees, saying: 2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the ancients? For they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 But he answering, said to them: Why do you also transgress the commandment of God for your tradition? For God said: 4 Honour thy father and mother: And: He that shall curse father or mother, let him die the death. 5 But you say: Whosoever shall say to father or mother, The gift whatsoever proceedeth from me, shall profit thee. 6 And he shall not honour his father or his mother: and **you have made void the commandment of God for your tradition. **7 Hypocrites, well hath Isaias prophesied of you, saying: 8 **This people honoureth me with their lips: but their heart is far from me. **9 **And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men. **10 And having called together the multitudes unto him, he said to them: Hear ye and understand. **
He wants us to enter His “rest” – not be beating our breasts to/through Mary, either in supplication for something or for her prayers to be offered on our behalf – He was very clear on that….and so were the Apostles.
Matthew 11:
25 At that time Jesus answered and said: I confess to thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to the little ones. 26 Yea, Father; for so hath it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered to me by my Father. And no one knoweth the Son, but the Father: neither doth any one know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom it shall please the Son to reveal him. 28 Come to me, all you that labour, and are burdened, and I will refresh you. 29 Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls. 30 For my yoke is sweet and my burden light.
**Hebrews 4:
1 Let us fear therefore lest the promise being left of entering into his rest, any of you should be thought to be wanting. 2For unto us also it hath been declared, in like manner as unto them. But the word of hearing did not profit them, not being mixed with faith of those things they heard.
11 Let us hasten therefore to enter into that rest; lest any man fall into the same example of unbelief. **12 For the word of God is living and effectual, and more piercing than any two edged sword; and reaching unto the division of the soul and the spirit, of the joints also and the marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature invisible in his sight: but all things are naked and open to his eyes, to whom our speech is. 14 **Having therefore a great high ****priest that hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God: let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin. 16 Let us go therefore with confidence to the throne of grace: that we may obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid. **
If you have entered into His rest…you don’t have to beat your breast in supplication/veneration to Mary.
I’ve read enough posts and responses in this thread to be able to draw parallels between the Catholic Church’s teachings with regards to tradition/as to where a lot of their focus is being directed (Mary) and to the verses of scripture posted above in Matthew 15.
If this posting of mine offends some people, I am truly sorry, but I know that you will all be pleased to know no doubt
…that I will follow Jesus’ words to his disciples when they questioned Him shortly thereafter:Matt 15:
12 Then came his disciples, and said to him: Dost thou know that the Pharisees, when they heard this word, were scandalized? (offended) 13 But he answering them, said: Every plant which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. 14 Let them alone: they are blind, and leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the pit.
Heavenly Father, for all those still seeking…for all those that have lost their way and placed their focus and faith in anyone other than You, in anyone other than Christ Jesus and the sufficiency of His blood sacrifice…please draw them near, shield and protect them from all evil and reveal Your will for their lives. I thank You and praise You…in Jesus precious, Holy name…Amen.
R
ron77nyc
Guest
This is where you are judging incorrectly. There is a conflict between scripture and tradition. Father, Son and Holy Spirit all live in us. This is what the apostles taught and this is what the church teaches if you dig in and search.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
Romans 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
2 Corinthians 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-- unless indeed you fail the test?
Have you ever been taught about God’s presence within you? The sacrifice of Jesus made it possible for the Godhead to live in everyone who has faith in Him. This is apostolic teaching.
C
codebilly
Guest
No form of worship of Jesus is easier than direct personal relationship with Him. Mary’s relationship with Jesus is dearest, most tender, and easiest to understand.
G
Good_Fella
Guest
“What’s in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell just as sweet.”
Romeo and Juliet {ll, ii, 1-2}
William Shakespeare
A
adrift
Guest
There is no conflict only a misunderstanding. Remember that Tradition came before the written word of Scripture. Your statement is contradictory.
R
ron77nyc
Guest
Quotes from the catechism:
"To preach . . . the unsearchable riches of Christ"10
425
The transmission of the Christian faith consists primarily in **proclaiming Jesus Christ in order to lead others to faith in him. **From the beginning, the first disciples burned with the desire to proclaim Christ: "We cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard."11 And they invite people of every era to enter into the joy of their communion with Christ:
At the heart of catechesis: Christ
426
"At the heart of catechesis we find, in essence, a Person, the Person of Jesus of Nazareth, the only Son from the Father . . . who suffered and died for us and who now, after rising, is living with us forever."13 To catechize is "to reveal in the Person of Christ the whole of God’s eternal design reaching fulfillment in that Person. It is to seek to understand the meaning of Christ’s actions and words and of the signs worked by him."14 Catechesis aims at putting "people . . . in communion . . . with Jesus Christ: only he can lead us to the love of the Father in the Spirit and make us share in the life of the Holy Trinity."15
1698
**The first and last point of reference of this catechesis will always be Jesus Christ himself, who is “the way, and the truth, and the life.”**24 It is by looking to him in faith that Christ’s faithful can hope that he himself fulfills his promises in them, and that, by loving him with the same love with which he has loved them, they may perform works in keeping with their dignity:
I ask you to consider that our Lord Jesus Christ is your true head, and that you are one of his members. He belongs to you as the head belongs to its members; all that is his is yours: his spirit, his heart, his body and soul, and all his faculties. You must make use of all these as of your own, to serve, praise, love, and glorify God. You belong to him, as members belong to their head. And so he longs for you to use all that is in you, as if it were his own, for the service and glory of the Father.25
"To preach . . . the unsearchable riches of Christ"10
425
The transmission of the Christian faith consists primarily in **proclaiming Jesus Christ in order to lead others to faith in him. **From the beginning, the first disciples burned with the desire to proclaim Christ: "We cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard."11 And they invite people of every era to enter into the joy of their communion with Christ:
At the heart of catechesis: Christ
426
"At the heart of catechesis we find, in essence, a Person, the Person of Jesus of Nazareth, the only Son from the Father . . . who suffered and died for us and who now, after rising, is living with us forever."13 To catechize is "to reveal in the Person of Christ the whole of God’s eternal design reaching fulfillment in that Person. It is to seek to understand the meaning of Christ’s actions and words and of the signs worked by him."14 Catechesis aims at putting "people . . . in communion . . . with Jesus Christ: only he can lead us to the love of the Father in the Spirit and make us share in the life of the Holy Trinity."15
1698
**The first and last point of reference of this catechesis will always be Jesus Christ himself, who is “the way, and the truth, and the life.”**24 It is by looking to him in faith that Christ’s faithful can hope that he himself fulfills his promises in them, and that, by loving him with the same love with which he has loved them, they may perform works in keeping with their dignity:
I ask you to consider that our Lord Jesus Christ is your true head, and that you are one of his members. He belongs to you as the head belongs to its members; all that is his is yours: his spirit, his heart, his body and soul, and all his faculties. You must make use of all these as of your own, to serve, praise, love, and glorify God. You belong to him, as members belong to their head. And so he longs for you to use all that is in you, as if it were his own, for the service and glory of the Father.25
N
nbtb1348
Guest
If it wasn’t so tragic it would be absolutely entertaining to watch the RCC dance around quotes like that one about Mary being sovereign in heaven.
There is only one thing I’m aware of that the RCC doesn’t do about Mary, and that is say that she is God. And I think THEY think that as long as they don’t do that, they aren’t worshipping her. But think about what constitutes worship.–Adoration, obssession, thinking about something or someone all the time, making likenesses of the thing or person, ascribing supernatural things to the person or thing, ascribing God-like qualities to the person or thing, taking time that could be spent exclusively with God and devoting that time and energy to the object of your obssession, and maybe one of the ultimates, PRAYING TO THE OBJECT OF YOUR OBSSESSION, my! my! my!
You know what they say…
…It certainly LOOKS like a duck…what are those pieces of skin between the toes?..by golly, it WALKS like a duck…what is that long flat beak for?..those feathers, why…and what IS that noise? Is that barking? No, by golly, I think it QUACKS like a duck! But it’s not. It’s really a dog, and we have some very impressive authorities with amazing pedigrees who will back this up, and by the way, what they say can actually trump anything you may have been taught about ducks
R
ron77nyc
Guest
You can’t go back any further than the teachings of Jesus, Paul and Peter. That’s where it started.
R
ron77nyc
Guest
The Catholic faith is all about Jesus. We are to lead people to Him. If Mary leads people to Jesus then we should too. “Fix our eyes on Jesus. The author and finisher of our faith.” That’s in the book of Hebrews.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Well, Adrift (and James) are right, Ron.
Remember, any ‘appearance’ of contradiction is simply that, an appearance. Why, you can take plenty of passages from Scripture that ‘appear’ to contradict each other, but they don’t really, do they?
If you trust Scripture, then at heart you’re trusting the Catholic Church, because when all’s said and done’, she’s the reason you have it. . .and Martin Luther himself acknowledged it.
Now you said that the Father, Son, and Spirit live in us (and we in them). Very true. Now, what ‘Sacred Tradition’ has contradicted this? I can think of none.
Remember, any ‘appearance’ of contradiction is simply that, an appearance. Why, you can take plenty of passages from Scripture that ‘appear’ to contradict each other, but they don’t really, do they?
If you trust Scripture, then at heart you’re trusting the Catholic Church, because when all’s said and done’, she’s the reason you have it. . .and Martin Luther himself acknowledged it.
Now you said that the Father, Son, and Spirit live in us (and we in them). Very true. Now, what ‘Sacred Tradition’ has contradicted this? I can think of none.
N
nbtb1348
Guest
Once the Canon was complete and the age of the Apostles ended, there was no longer a need for more traditions.
N
ncgolf
Guest
Yikes … please wipe the spittle from your mouth …
N
nbtb1348
Guest
And, my! what else COULD you say?!
R
ron77nyc
Guest
Going to Jesus through Mary.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Ron, we go to Jesus through St. Paul, we go to Jesus through each other. . . remember, we are all members of the Body. We don’t go to Jesus and ‘bypass’ all the other members of His body, do we? I think you are somehow thinking that Jesus is ‘separate’ from ‘the Body’, and that if one speaks of Mary or another saint, that one is ‘separating’ them from, and putting them in opposition to, Jesus.
St. Louis de Montfort spoke of “Jesus in Mary”. . .not as though Mary was the ‘greater’ and Jesus was ‘contained’, but rather that Jesus, like the sun, is reflected by Mary, the moon. The light of the sun is IN the light of the moon, isn’t it?
St. Louis de Montfort spoke of “Jesus in Mary”. . .not as though Mary was the ‘greater’ and Jesus was ‘contained’, but rather that Jesus, like the sun, is reflected by Mary, the moon. The light of the sun is IN the light of the moon, isn’t it?
R
ron77nyc
Guest
It’s not that at all. I don’t think that is necessary. Does that mean I’m anti-Catholic? I’ve never done it that way. St. Paul says we can approach the throne of grace with freedom and confidence.
I understand that but what I don’t understand is this: Talking about Jesus and praying to God without an intermediary gets people agitated. Why is that?
C
codebilly
Guest
“In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.” - John 14:2
We desire nothing more than to take the shelter of Mary and receive the gift of Mary given by Jesus from the Cross to the disciple John.
Our highest hope is to attend to the Savior, eternally, as a welcome servant, friend, slave, relative, or in any manner Mary sees fit, in her heavenly mansions.
**Mary’s memories
**
*11. Mary lived with her eyes fixed on Christ, treasuring his every word: “She kept all these things, pondering them in her heart” (Lk 2:19; cf. 2:51). The memories of Jesus, impressed upon her heart, were always with her, leading her to reflect on the various moments of her life at her Son’s side. In a way those memories were to be the “rosary” which she recited uninterruptedly throughout her earthly life.
Even now, amid the joyful songs of the heavenly Jerusalem, the reasons for her thanksgiving and praise remain unchanged. They inspire her maternal concern for the pilgrim Church, in which she continues to relate her personal account of the Gospel.** Mary constantly sets before the faithful the “mysteries” of her Son, with the desire that the contemplation of those mysteries will release all their saving power. In the recitation of the Rosary, the Christian community enters into contact with the memories and the contemplative gaze of Mary.**
We desire nothing more than to take the shelter of Mary and receive the gift of Mary given by Jesus from the Cross to the disciple John.
Our highest hope is to attend to the Savior, eternally, as a welcome servant, friend, slave, relative, or in any manner Mary sees fit, in her heavenly mansions.
**Mary’s memories
**
*11. Mary lived with her eyes fixed on Christ, treasuring his every word: “She kept all these things, pondering them in her heart” (Lk 2:19; cf. 2:51). The memories of Jesus, impressed upon her heart, were always with her, leading her to reflect on the various moments of her life at her Son’s side. In a way those memories were to be the “rosary” which she recited uninterruptedly throughout her earthly life.
Even now, amid the joyful songs of the heavenly Jerusalem, the reasons for her thanksgiving and praise remain unchanged. They inspire her maternal concern for the pilgrim Church, in which she continues to relate her personal account of the Gospel.** Mary constantly sets before the faithful the “mysteries” of her Son, with the desire that the contemplation of those mysteries will release all their saving power. In the recitation of the Rosary, the Christian community enters into contact with the memories and the contemplative gaze of Mary.**
- — ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE – vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20021016_rosarium-virginis-mariae_en.html
R
ron77nyc
Guest
I guess you didn’t really read what I said. I was praising those folks for their goodness.
C
codebilly
Guest
Ron, please sincerely try to understand “relationship” with Jesus. Relationship with Jesus Christ is not limited to your current understanding.
For example, before you were saved, you had no relationship. Then the Savior “saved you”, and hence revealed Himself, in some sense as your personal Savior. But now that you are saved, are you in need of a Savior? Is yes, then you admit that the Savior’s work is not yet done in you, since you are still in need of the Savior.
Once saved, does Jesus continue to “save you”? From what, you are already completely saved, no?
For the servants of Jesus, He reveals Himself as Master. For the student, as Teacher, for the friend, as dearest Friend.
If you read Canticles (song of solomon) it is evident that the authors relationship with God is as Spouse. This spousal relationship is not only biblical but also revealed in the lives of the saints and their writings.
Have you entered in relationship with Jesus on this intimate level as did Teresa of Avila, Teresa the Little Flower, and St. John of the Cross?
Has Jesus appeared to you as the Divine Infant as He did to St. Anthony, St. Francis, the Desert Fathers, and many others?
If not, then you have no relationship (or devotion) to the Infant Jesus.
Is Jesus Word eternal and ever living?
I tell you He Lives in the temple, He lives in the manger, He lives in the Incarnation, He lives in the Annunciation, and He is available to you PERSONALLY.
However, you cannot experience this personal relationship with Him unless you understand the following.
**Mary’s memories
**
11. Mary lived with her eyes fixed on Christ, treasuring his every word: “She kept all these things, pondering them in her heart” (Lk 2:19; cf. 2:51). The memories of Jesus, impressed upon her heart, were always with her, leading her to reflect on the various moments of her life at her Son’s side. In a way those memories were to be the “rosary” which she recited uninterruptedly throughout her earthly life.
Even now, amid the joyful songs of the heavenly Jerusalem, the reasons for her thanksgiving and praise remain unchanged. They inspire her maternal concern for the pilgrim Church, in which she continues to relate her personal account of the Gospel.** Mary constantly sets before the faithful the “mysteries” of her Son, with the desire that the contemplation of those mysteries will release all their saving power. In the recitation of the Rosary, the Christian community enters into contact with the memories and the contemplative gaze of Mary**.
ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE
– vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20021016_rosarium-virginis-mariae_en.html
- Status