To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

[CentralFLJames]

I think you are mistaken here about that. Jesus said that even more blessed (than Mary) are those who will not see but yet believe.

This sort of lexical fundamentalism is just so hard for us Catholics to deal with charitably.

Do you really have even a clue what the real semantics are behind Jesus’ words here? This gets so old dealing with those who do not understand the forms of speech in the original Aramaic times and in the Greek transliterations from the words spoken in Aramaic much less the anachronistic artifacts of English seen particularly in Protestant Bibles. This is EXACTLY why it is spiritual suicide to have a layperson with no period knowledge and no apostolic teaching tradition that is behind the actual words to get into the private interpretation hobby.

Jesus was not negating the blessedness of His mother in making this statement. He was just telling those present that those who could follow His teaching would be blessed. The idiom spoken by Jesus re-expressed in the modern English vernacular “rather” is just a means by which Jesus asserts His authority to correct the assumption (and no doubt suppress envy among the women present) that only one who is a blood relative of Jesus is blessed. This is in fact a highly Catholic principal since its Jesus himself saying authoritatively that The Kingdom of God is available to ALL people who obey His teachings - not just a special elect few.

Your defective interpretation would contradict scripture in two other areas. One place tells us quite plainly that ‘Mary is blessed above all women’ and another is Mary’s own prophesy
‘that all generations will call me blessed’. If you permit your interpretation then you might as well just admit sola scripture is bankrupt and toss your bible in the trash-can since the bible completely contradicts itself when privately interpreted by those with no business to be teaching this rubbish.

You are not just ignorant of scripture - you are dangerous to yourself and anyone that listens to you.

James

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I can’t believe that this thread is still going… :yawn:

Is as if some people’s whole theology is based on the false premise that we have to worship Mary and when we tell them that we don’t their whole little world crumbles.

God bless

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, Napsack, here is the Douay Rheims. . .

And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. 28 But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it.

So the “yes” is there in my version and probably in others as well.

 

[nbtb1348]

Well, Napsack, here is the Douay Rheims. . .

And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. 28 But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it.

So the “yes” is there in my version and probably in others as well.

That is the best verse for putting Mary right where she belongs–Away from the “Blessess” and alongside all the rest that simply honor the Word of God by studying and obeying it.

God Bless

 

[nbtb1348]

This sort of lexical fundamentalism is just so hard for us Catholics to deal with charitably.

Do you really have even a clue what the real semantics are behind Jesus’ words here? This gets so old dealing with those who do not understand the forms of speech in the original Aramaic times and in the Greek transliterations from the words spoken in Aramaic much less the anachronistic artifacts of English seen particularly in Protestant Bibles. This is EXACTLY why it is spiritual suicide to have a layperson with no period knowledge and no apostolic teaching tradition that is behind the actual words to get into the private interpretation hobby.

Jesus was not negating the blessedness of His mother in making this statement. He was just telling those present that those who could follow His teaching would be blessed. The idiom spoken by Jesus re-expressed in the modern English vernacular “rather” is just a means by which Jesus asserts His authority to correct the assumption (and no doubt suppress envy among the women present) that only one who is a blood relative of Jesus is blessed. This is in fact a highly Catholic principal since its Jesus himself saying authoritatively that The Kingdom of God is available to ALL people who obey His teachings - not just a special elect few.

Your defective interpretation would contradict scripture in two other areas. One place tells us quite plainly that ‘Mary is blessed above all women’ and another is Mary’s own prophesy
‘that all generations will call me blessed’. If you permit your interpretation then you might as well just admit sola scripture is bankrupt and toss your bible in the trash-can since the bible completely contradicts itself when privately interpreted by those with no business to be teaching this rubbish.

You are not just ignorant of scripture - you are dangerous to yourself and anyone that listens to you.

James

Which being interpreted means, “Why do you hold us to such a high and foreign standard of biblical exegesis. Go away and let us continue in our homespun lore!”

 

[CentralFLJames]

Which being interpreted means, “Why do you hold us to such a high and foreign standard of biblical exegesis. Go away and let us continue in our homespun lore!”

It’s time to change the topic title to "Why do Protestants worship the false god of Sola Scriptura and the legion of false gods arrived at through infallable private interpretation of scripture?"

Let’s end your nonsense here and now:

Misunderstandings about Jesus “rebuking” Mary

• Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 - when Jesus asks, “Who are my mother, and sisters and brothers?,” some Protestants argue that Jesus is rebuking Mary in order to denigrate her. To the contrary, when Jesus’ comments are read in light of Luke 8:5-15 and the parable of the sower which Jesus taught right before His question, Jesus is actually implying that Mary has already received the word as the sower of good ground and is bearing fruit. Jesus is teaching that others must, like Mary, also receive the word and obey it.
• Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 - Jesus’ question about “who are my mother, and sisters and brothers” was also made in reference to Psalm 69:8-9. Jesus the Prophet was answering the psalmist’s prophecy that those closest to Him would betray Him at His passion. Jesus is emphasizing the spiritual family’s importance over the biological family, and the importance of being faithful to Him. While many were unfaithful to Jesus, Mary remained faithful to Him, even to the point of standing at the foot of the Cross.
• Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 - finally, to argue that Jesus rebuked Mary is to argue that Jesus violated the Torah, here, the 4th commandment. This argument is blasphemous because it essentially says that God committed sin by dishonoring His Mother.
• Luke 11:28 - when Jesus says, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it,” some Protestants also call this a rebuke of Mary. Again, to the contrary, Jesus is exalting Mary by emphasizing her obedience to God’s word as being more critical than her biological role of mother. This affirms Luke 1:48.
• Luke 11:28 - also, the Greek word for “rather” is “menounge.” Menounge really means “Yes, but in addition,” or “Further.” Thus, Jesus is saying, yes my mother is blessed indeed, but further blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it. Jesus is encouraging others to follow Mary’s example in order to build up His kingdom.
• Luke 11:27-28 - finally, Jesus is the one being complimented, not Mary. Therefore, Jesus is refocusing the attention from Him to others who obey the word of God. If He is refocusing the attention away from Him to others, His comment cannot be a rebuke of Mary His mother.
• John 2:4 - this is another example that Protestants use to diminish Mary’s significance. Jesus’ question to Mary, “what have you to do with me?” does no such thing. To the contrary, Jesus’ question illustrates the importance of Mary’s role in the kingdom. Jesus’ question is in reality an invitation to His mother to intercede on behalf of all believers and begin His ministry, and His Mother understands this. Mary thus immediately intercedes, Jesus obeys her, and performs the miracle which commenced His ministry of redemption.
• Luke 8:28 - the demons tell Jesus the same thing, “what have you to do with us.” The demons are not rebuking Jesus, for God would not allow it. Instead, the demons are acknowledging the power of Jesus by their question to Him.
• John 2:4; 19:26 - when Jesus uses the title “woman” (gnyai), it is a title of dignity and respect. It is the equivalent of Lady or Madam. Jesus honored His Mother as God requires us to do.

More here: scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-X

James

 

[ufamtobie]

Roy5;4725219]MARY AND ST. PAUL

One thing that always has troubled me is that St. Paul wrote so much of the New Testament, and his letters contain considerable theology and much more directed to the early Christian churches, yet he does not mention Mary even once! If Mary is supposed to be so central to our worship - as in the Rosary and elsewhere - why did he omit her completely?

Roy, above you mentioned Virgin Mary Plays a little roll? Roy, you are most wrong, Virgin Mary plays a BIG ROLL in the Gosple and in our Lives… How so? Well, first of all, it was Virgin Mary’s YES, to have Our Lord. It was Virgin Mary’s YES, that we have Jesus Christ as our Savior… Roy, you call this a small roll?

Roy, Imagine Virgin Mary said NO, and did not have Our Savior Jesus Christ? Virgin Mary had the will to say No!

Roy, has it not ever occured to you to say THANK YOU VIRGIN MARY, FOR SAYING YES, TO HAVE OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST? Or are you affraid to say thanks to Virgin Mary for fear of doing so, you become Catholic?

Roy, so it troubles you that Paul, does not mention Virgin Mary’s Name? Here are some who did.

1. The Arch Angel Gabriel: “Hail Mary full of Grace the Lord is with thee, Blest art thou Amongst women and Blessed is the Fruit of thy womb”… Roy, is the Arch Angel worshiping Virgin Mary? Now lets face it, if the above was never mentioned in the gospel for some reason the earlie chruch fathers who were Catholics btw left the Arch Angels Message to Virgin Mary out and we Catholic said to Virgin Mary: "Hail Mary Full of Grace…this would be a conversational topic by you protestants saying that we worship Virgin Mary.

2.Elizabeth FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT: Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the Baby leapt in her womb. Elizabeth was FILLED with the HOLY SPIRIT and cried out in a LOUD VOICE: blest are you among women and blest is the fruit of thy womb. But "Who am I, that the Mother of my Lord should COME TO ME? The moment your greeting sounded in my ears, the baby leapt for JOY. Blest is she who trusted in the Lord’s words to her would be full filled.

Roy, Elizabeth & John who leapt, sounds more like a Catholic than protestant, don’t you agree.

Most importantly it was the HOLY SPIRIT who spoke these Venerations/Praises/Honoring to Virgin Mary, through Elizabeth and John. Amen

1. HOLY SPIRIT: Since Holy Spirit himself spoke through Elizabeth and John, and Gabriel this means that the Holy Spirit also Venerates/Praises/Honours Virgin Mary, Through Them… Roy, and you are troubled over Paul, not mentioning Virgin Mary?

Roy, Now that you read the above the Holy Spirit Sounds more Catholic than Protestant, Don’t you agree.

The Holy Spirit, Gabriel, Elizabeth & John are Truely VENERATING/PRAISING/HONORING… Virgin Mary Just like the faithful Catholics DO.

Just like those infomercials: BUT WAIT THERE IS MORE!

1. Simeon: (Luke 2: 34,35) Simeon blessed them and said to Mary His Mother: "This child is destined to be the downfall and the rise of many in Isreal, a sign that will be opposed AND YOU YOURSELF SHALL BE PIRCED WITH A SWORD- THAT THE THOUGHTS OF MANY HEARTS MAY BE LAID BARE…ROY, and YOU have the NERVE to say that Virgin Mary has a SMALL ROLL, SHAME ONE YOU!

Virgin Mary has to suffer for us as well, this is not a small roll but a BIG ROLL!!! Don’t you think?

Roy, wether you like it or not Virgin Mary Play a BIG ROLL in our salvation it states it so in (Luke 2: 35)

Apart from the nativity story and the crucifixion scene, Mary seems to play little role in the gospels. In fact, when she appears Jesus almost seems dismissive of her - as in Matthew 12:48, Luke 8:20-21. and John 2:4.

Roy, the Crucifixion scene you are WRONG: Jesus Christ last Comandment while He was yet alive, was In (John 19: 26,27) Seeing his Mother there with the disciple whom he loved, Jesus said to His MOTHER, “Woman, THERE IS YOU SON.” In turn He said to the disciple, " There is YOUR MOTHER. " From that HOUR ONWARD, the disciple took her into his care… Roy, Roy! and you call this a little roll. SHAME ON YOU!

Roy, the Catholic Church and the faithful Catholics only do what Jesus told John to do and that is to take Her in as Our Mother AND FOR THIS WE ARE ACCUSED OF WORSHIPING HER!

Roy, why did Jesus Christ Give Virgin Mary to John as Mother, and John to Virgin Mary as Son? The answer is to let the World know that Virgin Mary is OUR MOTHER ASWELL! THEREFORE THE REASON WHY SHE HAS TO SUFFER FOR US WITH A SWORD IN HER IMMACULATE HEART.

1. Jesus Christ, gave His Mother to us all.

   We all should honor Mary as the mother of Christ. But those deep into Mariology usually carry it far beyond what the gospels suggest.

Roy, you don’t have a clue! Truth is the More deeper one is into Mariology one is more DEEPER a Child Of Jesus.

Roy, Truth is we should Honor Virgin Mary as our Own Mother which makes us brothers to Jesus Christ. Amen

Ufam Tobie

 

[nbtb1348]

It’s time to change the topic title to "Why do Protestants worship the false god of Sola Scriptura and the legion of false gods arrived at through infallable private interpretation of scripture?"

Let’s end your nonsense here and now:

Misunderstandings about Jesus “rebuking” Mary

• Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 - when Jesus asks, “Who are my mother, and sisters and brothers?,” some Protestants argue that Jesus is rebuking Mary in order to denigrate her. To the contrary, when Jesus’ comments are read in light of Luke 8:5-15 and the parable of the sower which Jesus taught right before His question, Jesus is actually implying that Mary has already received the word as the sower of good ground and is bearing fruit. Jesus is teaching that others must, like Mary, also receive the word and obey it.
• Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 - Jesus’ question about “who are my mother, and sisters and brothers” was also made in reference to Psalm 69:8-9. Jesus the Prophet was answering the psalmist’s prophecy that those closest to Him would betray Him at His passion. Jesus is emphasizing the spiritual family’s importance over the biological family, and the importance of being faithful to Him. While many were unfaithful to Jesus, Mary remained faithful to Him, even to the point of standing at the foot of the Cross.
• Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 - finally, to argue that Jesus rebuked Mary is to argue that Jesus violated the Torah, here, the 4th commandment. This argument is blasphemous because it essentially says that God committed sin by dishonoring His Mother.
• Luke 11:28 - when Jesus says, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it,” some Protestants also call this a rebuke of Mary. Again, to the contrary, Jesus is exalting Mary by emphasizing her obedience to God’s word as being more critical than her biological role of mother. This affirms Luke 1:48.
• Luke 11:28 - also, the Greek word for “rather” is “menounge.” Menounge really means “Yes, but in addition,” or “Further.” Thus, Jesus is saying, yes my mother is blessed indeed, but further blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it. Jesus is encouraging others to follow Mary’s example in order to build up His kingdom.
• Luke 11:27-28 - finally, Jesus is the one being complimented, not Mary. Therefore, Jesus is refocusing the attention from Him to others who obey the word of God. If He is refocusing the attention away from Him to others, His comment cannot be a rebuke of Mary His mother.
• John 2:4 - this is another example that Protestants use to diminish Mary’s significance. Jesus’ question to Mary, “what have you to do with me?” does no such thing. To the contrary, Jesus’ question illustrates the importance of Mary’s role in the kingdom. Jesus’ question is in reality an invitation to His mother to intercede on behalf of all believers and begin His ministry, and His Mother understands this. Mary thus immediately intercedes, Jesus obeys her, and performs the miracle which commenced His ministry of redemption.
• Luke 8:28 - the demons tell Jesus the same thing, “what have you to do with us.” The demons are not rebuking Jesus, for God would not allow it. Instead, the demons are acknowledging the power of Jesus by their question to Him.
• John 2:4; 19:26 - when Jesus uses the title “woman” (gnyai), it is a title of dignity and respect. It is the equivalent of Lady or Madam. Jesus honored His Mother as God requires us to do.

More here: scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-X

James

It is still foreign to what the NT writers and Jesus himself set forth. If Mary was to be obssessed over like this, there would have been much more said. It is merely the result of man adding to Scripture, or at least attempting to.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Anyone who does not acknowledge Mary as worthy of veneration or due to the difficulties she presents to their denominational system of belief must attempt to diminish her significance is simultaneously admitting: 1) Their faith is at best an impotent, sterile and deficient faith and; 2) They don’t read their bibles with an adult comprehension (or are spiritually blind due in hubris) and; 3) Have missed the essential paired essence of the love relationship between God and Humanity (as both male & female) contained in the entirety of the scripture messages found cover-to-cover between the Book of Genesis and the book of Revelation.

To those who try to diminish Mary’s role I say - ignorance is one thing, but to evangelize and promulgate that ignorance out of malice and contempt for truth is quite another and the latter is damnable. It is better that such a person keep silent or admit they are in need of instruction than to dishonor themselves and the “Mother of God” by spewing the seeds of that ignorance everywhere they go.

“…The weed seeds are those who belong to the evil one, and the one who scattered them is the devil.” [Math 13:38-39]

A competent understanding of the profound role of Mary in salvation can come only from a mature understanding of Scripture as ALLOWED by the Holy Spirit.

Here is a sublime truth - Jesus purposely did not make explicit in the NT all the deeper and more mature dimensions of the mysteries of His salvation plan. He did not want to give so much deep teachings to new converts than they could chew at one time, become discouraged and then fall away. Jesus gave child’s milk like a mother would give her new infant and deferred the adult food for the Holy Spirit. The teaching on the Eucharist was too difficult for many of the early converts to swallow – and many walked away to their own eternal loss. Jesus came to plant the seed of faith – not to reveal the entire tree and grow and harvest the fruit in one season.

John 6:12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.”

1 Cor 3:2 “I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.”

Heb 5:12 “In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!”

Heb 5:13 “Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.”

John 16:13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.”

The two covenants (OT & NT) are integral to the divine plan of salvation. Mary’s role in salvation history becomes apparent when she is discerned as the living embodiment of fundamental themes in the Old and the New Testaments: as the Daughter of Zion, the Ark of the Covenant, the new Eve working with the new Adam.

Once one discerns the “scriptural Mary” one’s entire understanding of the meaning of Scripture is transformed and the bible blossoms into an incredible rose with such dimensionality and fragrance that one can scarcely take their spiritual senses off it.

What has become lost to many since the Protestant Revolution (owing to it’s core errors of fundamentalism & liberalism) is the fact that long ago the early Christian Church through the promptings of the Holy Spirit discovered the scriptural Mary in scripture in three dimensions.

• Mary was seen as the meeting-point of the old and the New Testaments embodying both the People of Israel (the “Daughter of Zion”) and the new-born Church.
• Mary was seen in relation to the divine plan of salvation as the New Eve working with the New Adam.
• Mary was understood against the background of what we call the seven splendors, the references in Genesis, Isaiah, Micah, the Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, Galatians and Revelation.

From the above 3 contexts there are literally 100’s of scriptural verses that all directly pertain to Mary. In fact Mary is the 2nd most talked about and prefigured person in scripture. This is only natural since God created humankind in both the male and female form and so Jesus and Mary are paired as are Adam and Eve. Common sense alone tells us that we can not have the bible predominantly as the masculine without its complimentary pairing and balance in the feminine. That is not to diminish Christ’s role nor to elevate Mary to divinity it is just to emphasize the profoundness of God in His infinite love humbling Himself to co-join with humans in a marriage of heaven and earth. It is profound.

The posting limits in this forum do not permit me to even summarize a complete exegesis of Mary in scripture. But let me give only a quick reference to where scripture tells us that not only is it appropriate to venerate Mary but that we are compelled to do so.

The Case for Veneration Of Mary From Scripture

• “Rejoice so highly favored” / “Hail full of grace”. Luke 1:28.
• “Blessed art thou amongst women.” Luke 1:42.
• “And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Luke 1:43
• “All generations shall call me blessed.” Luke 1:48.

The following link is a must read for anyone really wanting to know more about the Scriptural Mary and what the Early Church knew but is no longer remembered by contemporary Protestants (though early Protestants acknowledged it too). Sadly many Catholics who are not devout in their faith also fail to discern and understand Mary’s role as well. I HIGHLY recommend spending the time to read this – it will open up more depth of spiritual insight than you can imagine and put you on the fast track to sainthood.

MARY IN SCRIPTURE: ewtn.com/library/MARY/MARYINSC.htm

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

It is still foreign to what the NT writers and Jesus himself set forth. If Mary was to be obssessed over like this, there would have been much more said. It is merely the result of man adding to Scripture, or at least attempting to.

Is this the best counter-exegesis you can come up with???!
EVERY bullet above has an explicit scriptural reference and you have the gall to offer an opinion with no substance behind it?

Two words: HUBRIS and DENIAL

James

 

[Good_Fella]

It is still foreign to what the NT writers and Jesus himself set forth. If Mary was to be obssessed over like this, there would have been much more said. It is merely the result of man adding to Scripture, or at least attempting to.

The Jews feel the same way about the Church: adding to the Scriptures in her “obsession” with Jesus, the son of a carpenter. How do we know for sure that the New Testament books listed in the canon aren’t apocryphal? Mother Church tells us they aren’t by the guidance of the Paraclete. The Catholic Church can neither add nor take away anything that belongs in the Scriptures, for the written word reflects Sacred Tradition. The Holy Spirit “speaks” what he “hears” to the Church (Jn 16: 12-13).

PAX :harp:

 

[codebilly]

Codebilly - aha! I thought I recognized your Carmelite spirituality brother. You just confirmed it.

Me to.

Ironically while Carmelite’s take deep inspiration from the examples of Mary and Elijah few outside the order understand that while Mary extends her mantle of maternal protection and its popularly mistaken to be devoted to Mary the contemplative prayer life is all fully Christ centered. No doubt this is precisely why the order has produced so many great saints, 3 Doctors of The Church (2 of the only 3 female ones) and has so many visionaries for its relatively small size compared to the larger religious orders.

James

busted !

Yes. No doubt about. Fully Christ centered, and where devotion to Mary exists, center on Christ as Mary. While St. Francis and St. Anthony of Padua are not Carmelites, I like the Franciscan phrase regarding St. Anthony … “he became another Mary”

And this general summarize catholic devotion to the Saints, that is, the flavor of spirituality set forth by the founder of foundress becomes the general flavor of the order.

Hence we look to St. John of the Cross, or St. Teresa the Little Flower, as our guide to complete communion with Jesus in the flavor of Bridal Mysticism.

Regarding Mary, we must also remember, that she is the Bride of God the Father, echoed in Song of Solomon. We must the angel’s proclamation, “be not afraid” was consolation to Our Virgin Mother, to enter the bridal chamber of God and surrender wholly, in spousal communion.

Our Catholic Church teaches this in that she was made for God solely for this purpose.

The Fruit of her womb, Jesus, the Incarnation of the Word, steps into time and becomes the image of the invisible God, revealed to humanity.

Therefore, Marian devotion sets itself apart from all paths of servitude to Jesus Christ, because, she embodies all that we can every hope to be.

By the Mercy of God, and the graces granted to Mary, she is mother to all, inclusive of their spiritual formation, and she dispenses gifts to God’s children.

Among these gifts, is the constant, uninterrupted stream of love between her and her Son, Jesus Christ, the Savior.

In this modern era, we are invited to accept, an easy, simple, pure, loving, and devotional path to Lord Jesus Christ by recitation of the Rosary.

And this is a new grace bestowed upon many by her revelation to the Holy Father, John Paul II. She, in this time, makes clear, what was known to the saints of previous times, but hidden in the mysteries of the Rosary.

That is, that she shares her very memories, and hence, in the Joyful mysteries, we witness her Joy beyond Joyful exchanges between her and Jesus.

In doing so, our hearts are awakened to the greatest of gifts, the Person and Jesus Christ Himself. We need no science of philosophy share in this very personal, intimate, simple, and humble relationship with the Christ Child, as the root of this relationship is pure Love of God.

We are reminded of Jesus’ saying that in heaven the little children are the best.

To quote, our saintly sister, St. Teresa the Little Flower,

" Happy dewdrop, known to God alone, think not of the rushing torrents of this world! Envy not even the crystal stream which winds among the meadows. The ripple of its waters is sweet indeed, but it can be heard by creatures. Besides, the Field-flower could never contain it in its cup. One must be so little to draw near to Jesus, and few are the souls that aspire to be little and unknown. “Are not the river and the brook,” they urge, “of more use than a dewdrop? Of what avail is it? Its only purpose is to refresh for one moment some poor little field-flower.” Ah! They little know the true Flower of the field. Did they know Him they would understand better Our Lord’s reproach to Martha. Our Beloved needs neither our brilliant deeds nor our beautiful thoughts. Were He in search of lofty ideas, has He not His Angels, whose knowledge infinitely surpasses that of the greatest genius of earth? Neither intellect nor other talents has He come to seek among us. . . . He has become the Flower of the field to show how much He loves simplicity. The Lily of the valley asks but a single dewdrop, which for one night shall rest in its cup, hidden from all human eyes. But when the shadows shall begin to fade, when the Flower of the field shall have become the _Sun of Justice, then the dewdrop–the humble sharer of His exile–will rise up to Him as love’s vapour. "

 

[codebilly]

That is the best verse for putting Mary right where she belongs–Away from the “Blessess” and alongside all the rest that simply honor the Word of God by studying and obeying it.

God Bless

It is still foreign to what the NT writers and Jesus himself set forth. If Mary was to be obssessed over like this, there would have been much more said. It is merely the result of man adding to Scripture, or at least attempting to.

Exactly the opposite is true. In fact, much less would have been said. Because to know Mary is to know simplicity and humility of spirit, requiring no scholarship or study whatsoever.

Rather, only pure love of God, in the most intimate personal relationships. Mary is the bride of God the Father who was fashion by Him solely for the purpose of entering the bridal chamber with Him ( as spoken of in Song of Songs (Canticles) ). Of this deep ecstatic, perfect union with God, no words, philosophies and study can every explain, nor should they be expounded upon, as love beyond measure transcends the mundane real of logical speculation.

Mary is also mother of Jesus, having the most intimate personal relationship with Him. The love exchanged between her and the Divine Infant are incomprehensible and not able to be contained in words.

She carries the Lord to greet His relations, St. John the Baptist, who leaps for joy in the womb of Elizabeth.

She is saturated with rapt love of the Infant Jesus in the stable in Bethlehem.

Those few privileged enough to attend approach her and the Child with the deepest humility and the quietist footsteps. The shepherds and magi do not barge in and demand to hold the Blessed and tender Jesus. Rather they bow down, and most certainly and humbly request enter the stable.

In fact, they may not even dare to ask her to hold the Precious Gift of Jesus. However, because her joy is so beyond measure, it overflows and she welcomes them. It is only with her permission, that they can dream of holding Him in their arms.

Love does not need bible study and purest love needs only the surrender to God, in the mold of Mary.

St. Teresa, the Little Flower of Jesus, is a contemporary example of Mary, in her spousal relationship with God. She says:

• Happy dewdrop, known to God alone, think not of the rushing torrents of this world! Envy not even the crystal stream which winds among the meadows. The ripple of its waters is sweet indeed, but it can be heard by creatures. Besides, the Field-flower could never contain it in its cup. One must be so little to draw near to Jesus, and few are the souls that aspire to be little and unknown. “Are not the river and the brook,” they urge, “of more use than a dewdrop? Of what avail is it? Its only purpose is to refresh for one moment some poor little field-flower.” Ah! They little know the true Flower of the field. Did they know Him they would understand better Our Lord’s reproach to Martha. Our Beloved needs neither our brilliant deeds nor our beautiful thoughts. Were He in search of lofty ideas, has He not His Angels, whose knowledge infinitely surpasses that of the greatest genius of earth? Neither intellect nor other talents has He come to seek among us. . . . He has become the Flower of the field to show how much He loves simplicity. The Lily of the valley_ asks but a single dewdrop, which for one night shall rest in its cup, hidden from all human eyes. But when the shadows shall begin to fade, when the Flower of the field shall have become the _Sun of Justice,then the dewdrop–the humble sharer of His exile–will rise up to Him as love’s vapour. *

So please, kindly do not post comments like you understand “the place” of Mary, the Blessed Mother of the Savior Jesus Christ. Your knowledge of Jesus the Savior, and your nearly impersonal relationship with Him, expresses that you are a neophyte in your spiritual journey.

Your arrogance as one so bold as to have said “putting Mary right where she belongs–Away” is very, very offensive to God.

I pray I never say anything like that … I truly ask You Heavenly Father, to keep my thoughts and lips pure so as never to utter an offense against her, who you chose, to bring forth our Savior Jesus Christ, In His name I pray.

 

[CentralFLJames]

My my, this thread seems now as peaceful and as quiet as it gets immediately after a demon has been exorcised. No doubt all the scripture being presented has silenced the false accusations.

[SIGN] :crutches: :stretcher: :blackeye: :crutches: [/sign]

At this point in the process though we need to make sure the demons are not laying low playing possum only to come back again later.

Any stragglers out there want to explain if the following Protestant wedding vow is idolatry and worship of a created creature?

Protestant Wedding Vow
*“With this Ring I thee wed, with my Body I thee worship, and with all my worldly Goods I thee endow; In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; Amen.” *

By the way, Mary’s last recorded personal words in scripture are:

“'Do whatever He (Jesus) tells you”. [John 2:5]

I hope detractors of Mary will not purposely disobey Her just to demonstrate that they don’t recognize Mary’s authority or take orders from an “ordinary woman” and thereby eternally alienate themselves from Christ too.

James

 

[Soutane]

This is where you are judging incorrectly. There is a conflict between scripture and tradition. Father, Son and Holy Spirit all live in us. This is what the apostles taught and this is what the church teaches if you dig in and search.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

Romans 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-- unless indeed you fail the test?

Have you ever been taught about God’s presence within you? The sacrifice of Jesus made it possible for the Godhead to live in everyone who has faith in Him. This is apostolic teaching.

I don’t believe that you are a Catholic.There is no conflict between Scripture and Tradition.If you are Catholic your faith is skewed and you MUST read your catechism.I repeat that you are causing scandal to the Catholics here by promulgating things that are absolutely contrary to the faith.

 

[Soutane]

And, my! what else COULD you say?!

And my!What else could YOU say?!

 

[Soutane]

It’s not that at all. I don’t think that is necessary. Does that mean I’m anti-Catholic? I’ve never done it that way. St. Paul says we can approach the throne of grace with freedom and confidence.

I understand that but what I don’t understand is this: Talking about Jesus and praying to God without an intermediary gets people agitated. Why is that?

Ron,are you saying that Catholics only pray to Christ thru Mary?What a crock.Typical strawman arguementation.

Do you even attend mass?

 

[Soutane]

I guess you didn’t really read what I said. I was praising those folks for their goodness.

No you weren’t.

 

[Soutane]

No, you just confirmed what I already knew. My forcefulness is probably not very helpful for you when it comes to examining your own personal relationship with Christ. The nesxt time you watch a Billy Graham or a Rick Warren or a Tony Dungy or a Kurt Warner or a Tim Tebow or a Mike Huckabee or a Paul Azinger give glory to God, know that you are listening to someone who has found real Life through simple faith in the finished work of the cross…plus nothing. And the results are lives that are changed forever.
Peace

You are coming perilously close to proselytizing friend.Be careful.

 

[Soutane]

Wonderful! Why carry on about her? Jesus is our life our sweetness and our hope. Many saints did many great things. They were all human beings just as Mary was.

If you prayed the prayer you would know that Christ is our seetness and hope.

Hail, Holy Queen

        Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy!(CHRIST)
        Our life(CHRIST), our sweetness(CHRIST), and our hope!(CHRIST)

No one is denying their humanity nor Mary’s but unlike you or me she was created with the express purpose of bearing God himself,conceived without sin like Eve but unlike Eve she always said yes to God.