To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

[Always_For_Him]

Or Napsack, are you referring to the conversation in this thread that I posted a respose to? Either way, you didn’t address my post with any answers. I really wansn’t being retorical. My post may seem rediculous to you, but, I really want to hear your answers. I can’t figure out where you are coming from. What the Catholics on this thread have been trying to tell you is that we do not worship Mary, we venerate her. They have also been trying to correct error and answer WHY we have authority. What I am seeing is the tendency for non-Catholics who can’t answer to throw more error into the mix to confuse the conversation. So, then the Catholics on this thread are fielding 5 or so different topics of discussion and TRYING to teach the Church’s historical teaching to clear up the errors.

 

[Napsack]

Gee, I didn’t realize that I needed to be there personally to be a part of the conversation. The way I see it, since all Protestants have the authority to bind and loose for themselves (no one in the last 500 years was there either), I thought I might be able to grab a little of that authority myself.

It is obvious that you don’t have a clue what bind and loose in Scripture actually means

Here we go again with the Catholic church writing Scripture. Tell this to Eastern Orthodox Christians and see how well that sits with them. It’s pure baloney.

 

[Napsack]

Well gosh nap - that means all of us are out of luck since none os us was personally there to hear that conversation and there are no real binding covenants that extend from generation to generation that pertain to us - right?

Depending on how you answer I might see how easily The Reformers imagined and rationalized there was no concept of a covenant nor any handed down authority that God vested in anyone and how they assumed mob rule was as good as any kind of rule and there was nothing to prevent anyone from stealing the kingdom by force. Funny how they never saw these verses though:

John 10:1
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. 2"But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. "

John 21:16
He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Shepherd My sheep.”

The only exception I know of a theif successfully stealing heaven was when the good thief on the cross still practicing his only craft of thievery finally just stole Jesus’ heart and asked him if He would let him into the kingdom. How ironic that people have to try to take heaven my revolution and illicit break-ins rather than just thinking to knock politely and asking for admission with the gatekeeper…

James

You obviously don’t ever get tired of listening to yourself ramble on and rant and rave so let me be of some help to you. I for one am getting a bit unsettled with all of your pushing of rhetoric over and over again which for obvious reasons isn’t going to convince me and several others here that it contains one shred of truth. Why don’t you read and meditate of the Word of God and maybe you will start to know the truth for yourself instead of beating us Protestants over the head with the same played out rhetoric that will never convince or sway any Bible believing Christian away from God.

 

[ron77nyc]

The following comes from “The Glories of Mary” by St. Alphonsus de Liguori (1696-1787.) It is traditional Catholic thinking. It puts emphasis on the angry Christ and compassionate Mary. It also elevates Mary to the level of divine. If we put it beside scripture it causes confusion because it contradicts scripture.

motherofallpeoples.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1036&Itemid=85

And therefore, says Saint Peter Damian, the Blessed Virgin can do whatever she pleases both in heaven and on earth. She is able to raise even those who are in despair to confidence, and he addresses her in these words: "All power is given to you in heaven and on earth, and nothing is impossible to you, who can raise those who are in despair to the hope of salvation." (7) And then he adds that “when the Mother goes to seek a favor for us from Jesus Christ” (whom the Saint calls the golden altar of mercy, at which sinners obtain pardon), “her Son esteems her prayers so greatly, and is so desirous to satisfy her, that when she prays, it seems as if she rather commanded than prayed, and was rather a queen than a handmaid.” (8) Jesus is pleased thus to honor His beloved Mother, who honored Him so much during her life, by immediately granting all that she asks or desires. This is beautifully confirmed by Saint Germanus, who addressing our Blessed Lady says: “You are the Mother of God, and** all-powerful **to save sinners, and with God you need no other recommendation; for you are the Mother of true life.” (9)
**“At the command of Mary, all obey, even God.” **Saint Bernardine fears not to utter this sentence; meaning, indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands. (10) And hence Saint Anselm addressing Mary says: “Our Lord, O most holy Virgin, has exalted you to such a degree, that by His favor all things that are possible to Him should be possible to you.” (11) “For your protection is omnipotent, O Mary,” says Cosmas of Jerusalem. (12) **“Yes, Mary is omnipotent,” **repeats Richard of Saint Lawrence; “for the queen by every law enjoys the same privileges as the king. And as,” he adds, "the power of the son and that of the mother is the same, a mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent son." (13) “And thus,” says Saint Antoninus, “God has placed the whole Church, not only under the patronage, but even under the dominion of Mary.” (14)

Scripture:
Matthew 11: 28 Come to me, all ye who labour and are burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am meek and lowly in heart; and ye shall find rest to your souls; 30 for my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

John 6: 37 All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out. 38 Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day. 40 And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth in him, may have life everlasting, and I will raise him up in the last day.

 

[Napsack]

The following comes from “The Glories of Mary” by St. Alphonsus de Liguori (1696-1787.) It is traditional Catholic thinking. It puts emphasis on the angry Christ and compassionate Mary. It also elevates Mary to the level of divine. If we put it beside scripture it causes confusion because it contradicts scripture.

motherofallpeoples.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1036&Itemid=85

And therefore, says Saint Peter Damian, the Blessed Virgin can do whatever she pleases both in heaven and on earth. She is able to raise even those who are in despair to confidence, and he addresses her in these words: "All power is given to you in heaven and on earth, and nothing is impossible to you, who can raise those who are in despair to the hope of salvation." (7) And then he adds that “when the Mother goes to seek a favor for us from Jesus Christ” (whom the Saint calls the golden altar of mercy, at which sinners obtain pardon), “her Son esteems her prayers so greatly, and is so desirous to satisfy her, that when she prays, it seems as if she rather commanded than prayed, and was rather a queen than a handmaid.” (8) Jesus is pleased thus to honor His beloved Mother, who honored Him so much during her life, by immediately granting all that she asks or desires. This is beautifully confirmed by Saint Germanus, who addressing our Blessed Lady says: “You are the Mother of God, and** all-powerful **to save sinners, and with God you need no other recommendation; for you are the Mother of true life.” (9)
**“At the command of Mary, all obey, even God.” **Saint Bernardine fears not to utter this sentence; meaning, indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands. (10) And hence Saint Anselm addressing Mary says: “Our Lord, O most holy Virgin, has exalted you to such a degree, that by His favor all things that are possible to Him should be possible to you.” (11) “For your protection is omnipotent, O Mary,” says Cosmas of Jerusalem. (12) **“Yes, Mary is omnipotent,” **repeats Richard of Saint Lawrence; “for the queen by every law enjoys the same privileges as the king. And as,” he adds, "the power of the son and that of the mother is the same, a mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent son." (13) “And thus,” says Saint Antoninus, “God has placed the whole Church, not only under the patronage, but even under the dominion of Mary.” (14)

Scripture:
Matthew 11: 28 Come to me, all ye who labour and are burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am meek and lowly in heart; and ye shall find rest to your souls; 30 for my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

John 6: 37 All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out. 38 Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day. 40 And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth in him, may have life everlasting, and I will raise him up in the last day.

There is much in the Catholic faith that unequivocally demonstrates the worship of Mary. From prayers of popes past to some of the faith statements of the church, I am convinced that the level of veneration displayed in much of this is undoubtedly worship. They can argue and say that the church doesn’t condone it and it doesn’t do it and they said the same exact thing about the priests that sexually abused minors. At first it was that the church didn’t do it and then when it became too obvious to deny, they kept saying that the church doesn’t condone it. In defense of the Catholic church, I believe that the church absolutely does not condone sexual abuse against anyone, but neither do any of the Protestant churches. The fact that we say the church doesn’t condone or approve of something doesn’t make it either nonexistant or go away. The Catholic church in my view should scale down the attention given to Mary because too much veneration and adoration and devotion to the Blessed Virgin seems to exacerbate the problem of Mary worship by some parishioners and clergy. Jesus Christ needs our full attention and worship and thanks for his saving grace.

 

[CentralFLJames]

The following comes from “The Glories of Mary” by St. Alphonsus de Liguori (1696-1787.) It is traditional Catholic thinking. It puts emphasis on the angry Christ and compassionate Mary. It also elevates Mary to the level of divine. If we put it beside scripture it causes confusion because it contradicts scripture.

motherofallpeoples.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1036&Itemid=85

Ron, as a fellow Catholic I am not sure I follow what it is you are trying to get at here. Are you really Catholic?

This is not an elevation of Mary to Divinity. Having a shared or equivalent authority or the ability to have profound and essentially perfect influence with God is not the same thing as being made divine. No created creature can be divine - its a simple matter of definition of terms. If I am reading you properly I think you are injecting your own opinion here and I don’t agree with it.

From Catholic thought and tradition there is the notion that God’s Kingdom is divided into two dominions - Justice and Mercy. A Kingdom by definition has a King and a Queen and the authorities are equivalent for the subjects of the Kingdom. It is said among some Catholic Saints and Theologians that Jesus has elected to take Justice as His dominion and has given the dominion of Mercy to His Queen (Mary).

It it perhaps ironic here to point out that Catholics have long known that God’s Mercy wins out over His justice. This has profound implications in this kingdom taxonomy! In a sense then, since Mary can invoke God’s unfathomable Mercy against His Justice in a way that is not a contradiction to His Nature nor to His Will it can be rightfully said in a certain sense that Mary can in fact command God in accordance with His Will (by pulling on His heart strings as Mother of God ) It is almost as if God Himself has through some ineffable mystery manifest His own Mercy as well as Wisdom through a created Creature. But compare this with what Ballam tried to do in what has been called Ballam’s Error. Ballam in a perverse attempt tried to manipulate God’s nature against His people by forcing God to hold to His word and damn and punish Israel for eternity by luring them into idol worship.

**How ironic indeed that God through Jesus so trust’s and loves Mary that He permits Himself to be manipulated by Love and Mercy but will not ever submit Himself to be manipulated through compulsion of Justice (which in the absence of Motherly love is Satan’s strategy). Can there then be any reason to wonder why Satan is using the mouths of ignorant people to try to reduce Marian devotion and silence Mercy? Some here are arguing to their own destruction. **

The coup de grâce (“blow of mercy”) to put those wounded thralls of Satan’s here out of their suffering ignorance is to present the simple fact that Jesus Himself in becoming human ELECTED in His divinity to submit Himself to Mary’s care. As one person wisely mentioned - one does not really have a personal relationship with Jesus unless one can see Jesus through the eyes of Mary - and that means being able to see Jesus as an infant as well as King.

To those that want the truth of the matter rather than the traditional errors handed down to them in their reformed secular neo-Christianity (e.g. easy-believism, shallow theology, scrupulosity and even paranoia) we only need look again to the relational aspects of Mary as Mother of Jesus. Jesus, as divine child MOST CERTAINLY DID SUBMIT Himself to His mother’s care. Part of that submission was trust that Mary would not overextend her role to the point of abusing that divine trust.

If God can trust Mary as His mother then who in their right mind would be so fearful of her that they would not trust her as their own mother?

QED:
*Luke 2:51 Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. *

James

 

[Roy5]

MARY AND SONG OF SOLOMON

Anyone who tries to make the Song of Solomon (or Song of Songs) into some sort of homage to Mary is way, way off base.

Obviously, it is intended as a love song involving male and female.

Some Protestant fundamentalists have sought to interpret it as Christ's love for his church. Now some Catholics want to get Mary into the act.

Give those who have studied the scriptures in detail a break! Reread, for example, 5:10-16 or chapter 7 and tell me these passages are not about human beings other than Mary or Christ or God or the church. Etc.

 

[CentralFLJames]

MARY AND SONG OF SOLOMON

Anyone who tries to make the Song of Solomon (or Song of Songs) into some sort of homage to Mary is way, way off base.

Obviously, it is intended as a love song involving male and female.

Some Protestant fundamentalists have sought to interpret it as Christ's love for his church. Now some Catholics want to get Mary into the act.

Give those who have studied the scriptures in detail a break! Reread, for example, 5:10-16 or chapter 7 and tell me these passages are not about human beings other than Mary or Christ or God or the church. Etc.

As I presented earlier Deborah’s Song of Praise in Judges 5 is a PERFECT prefiguring of Mary’s Magnificat. If you want the proper context - read Song of Songs as if Mary was saying it (the female vereses - as Daughter Zion). You have the context completely reversed.

See my original post #683 in this thread.
CentralFLJames - part of post 683:

When one comprehends the depth and fullness of the OT and its fulfillment in the NT one MUST see Mary’s role as Arc of the Covenant (bearer of God’s Word); one MUST see Mary as “Daughter of Zion” - Spouse of Yahweh, Mother of the People of God (Mother Zion), the Virgin Israel; one MUST see Mary in the character and face of all of Zion’s strongest Jewish Women.

See Mary in ALL the strong women of Israel: Sarah (not a slave mother/ Mary free of slavery to sin) , Rebecca (Mary is the seed of multitudes of Christians), Rachael (Mary’s son is sold for silver like Rachel’s but also becomes a savior), Miriam (Mary is associated with God’s High Priest just as the sister of the Moses), Deborah (**Mary’s Magnificat mirrors Deborah’s Song of Praise in Judges **5), Ruth (both handmaids and servants), Abigail (both Queen of the House of David yet both servants of The Lord I Samuel 25:41), Esther (both as Queens are instrumental in defeating the King’s enemies).

James

 

[Hisalone]

Or Napsack, are you referring to the conversation in this thread that I posted a respose to? Either way, you didn’t address my post with any answers. I really wansn’t being retorical. My post may seem rediculous to you, but, I really want to hear your answers. I can’t figure out where you are coming from. What the Catholics on this thread have been trying to tell you is that we do not worship Mary, we venerate her. They have also been trying to correct error and answer WHY we have authority. What I am seeing is the tendency for non-Catholics who can’t answer to throw more error into the mix to confuse the conversation. So, then the Catholics on this thread are fielding 5 or so different topics of discussion and TRYING to teach the Church’s historical teaching to clear up the errors.

We say that is a distinction without a difference.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

We say that is a distinction without a difference.

Well, you can ‘say’ what you like (free speech and all that) but, with respect, what you ‘say’ has absolutely no bearing on whether something is or isn’t true.

What you say is false, and it is false not just because I personally say it, but because it is ‘truly’ false, just as the statement “the moon is made of green cheese” is false, not just because I say it is false, but because it is demonstrably proven to be false by evidence of those who actually went to the moon’.

So your statement is proven false by the evidence of those who actually do practice both veneration and worship and who thus can prove, by the ‘difference’ in the practice of each, that there IS a difference.

What you don’t accept is that there IS a difference. That is a very different statement from attempting to say that there really IS no difference.

The first is a true statement–YOU don’t ACCEPT that there is a distinction.

The second --which was your statement–is that "there is a distinction without a difference’ and that is a false statement in itself unless you are careful to note that preceeding it as you did with ‘we say’ should be an indication that this is your OPINION and not an attempt to state it as a fact.

 

[CentralFLJames]

We say that is a distinction without a difference.

What Catholics say is that Protestants have no business making unsubstantiated claims and judging as if you can see through the eyes of God.

And what I will say again as an individual Catholic is that Protestants, lacking any credible evidence that you even worship God (since you do not offer up to God the one True and perfect sacrifice of worship (Jesus) in the mass) have demonstrated for 500 years that you do not even recognize worship - much less are in a position to differentiate it from veneration.

Sorry, but from my perspective you protestants that push this nonsence that Catholics worship Mary above hyperdulia/veneration is like the blind telling the seeing that they need glasses.

Absurd.

James

 

[ron77nyc]

Ron, as a fellow Catholic I am not sure I follow what it is you are trying to get at here. Are you really Catholic?

What I’m getting at is this: Although it has never been official church doctrine the message that comes across is clear: you will do much better if you trust Mary rather than Jesus.

Something is very wrong when people ignore Mary but on the other hand something is very wrong when putting Jesus first is considered to be anti-Catholic.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Well, you can ‘say’ what you like (free speech and all that) but, with respect, what you ‘say’ has absolutely no bearing on whether something is or isn’t true.

What you say is false, and it is false not just because I personally say it, but because it is ‘truly’ false, just as the statement “the moon is made of green cheese” is false, not just because I say it is false, but because it is demonstrably proven to be false by evidence of those who actually went to the moon’.

So your statement is proven false by the evidence of those who actually do practice both veneration and worship and who thus can prove, by the ‘difference’ in the practice of each, that there IS a difference.

What you don’t accept is that there IS a difference. That is a very different statement from attempting to say that there really IS no difference.

The first is a true statement–YOU don’t ACCEPT that there is a distinction.

The second --which was your statement–is that "there is a distinction without a difference’ and that is a false statement in itself unless you are careful to note that preceeding it as you did with ‘we say’ should be an indication that this is your OPINION and not an attempt to state it as a fact.

Agree.

Maybe we should just take the man’s concise statement that they don’t see the difference as an admission of defect in discernment and fallibility rather than as an attack on our beliefs.

I can still respect a person who can at least admit they have a perception deficiency. But I have a problem if any are so indiscriminating that they will try to force me to conform to their own deficiency. That would be like trying to impose a least common denominator form of worship on everyone just to accommodate the spiritually handicapped in a “no child left behind” sort of mandate.

James

 

[Angels_Unaware]

What is the distinction between acting on principles in the Bible and worshipping the Bible?

I don’t doubt some Catholics have crossed the line from veneration into worship of Mary. They are heretical. But to insistently point to them and fail to see the corresponding idolatry of the Bible is pretty hypocritical and delusional.

Of course, this is coming from people who spew hate and malice, so it isn’t suprising.

If there were any open minds here, which there are not, so it is almost not worth stating, I would say it is important to understand that Mary is not seen as God, but as a model of the human relationship with God in the Church. She is wholly human, but bears the Son in her body and soul, as we are called to do when we are born again through baptism. When you see the Madonna with the Infant Jesus you see a visual image of Jesus “living in your heart”.

She is emulated as the most perfect pastor leading people to Christ. She is a missionary for Christ.

Enough said: it will be ignored, attacked, and vilified. Satan hates the Blessed Mother.

 

[CentralFLJames]

What I’m getting at is this: Although it has never been official church doctrine the message that comes across is clear: you will do much better if you trust Mary rather than Jesus.

Something is very wrong when people ignore Mary but on the other hand something is very wrong when putting Jesus first is considered to be anti-Catholic.

Your perceptions are WAY off base. This is utter baloney.

Are you a protestant convert Ron? You seem to have bought into the whole protestant “Catholics worship Mary” propaganda and paranoia hook line and sinker.

Marian disciplines are just one of many rich spiritual dimensions of The Church. It is a more advanced spirituality that comes out as one deepens their faith in CHRIST. It is part of the sanctification process of the soul as one becomes more Christ like. Mary and the saints as family and companions of Christ become more vivid. It’s part of forming a deep personal relationship with Jesus.

As I have said previously, unless one is not going to mass and worshiping Christ it almost impossible for anyone to worship Mary beyond a veneration level of honor (hyperdulia). This is a matter of definition of worship. You really should familiarize yourself with the Catholic Concept of Honor and Worship. There is whole taxonomy of veneration that is explicitly defined.

James

 

[pete_29]

Based on some of your previous posts I heartily concur with your above statement.

He never did get it, did he?

 

[Hisalone]

Well, you can ‘say’ what you like (free speech and all that) but, with respect, what you ‘say’ has absolutely no bearing on whether something is or isn’t true.

What you say is false, and it is false not just because I personally say it, but because it is ‘truly’ false, just as the statement “the moon is made of green cheese” is false, not just because I say it is false, but because it is demonstrably proven to be false by evidence of those who actually went to the moon’.

So your statement is proven false by the evidence of those who actually do practice both veneration and worship and who thus can prove, by the ‘difference’ in the practice of each, that there IS a difference.

What you don’t accept is that there IS a difference. That is a very different statement from attempting to say that there really IS no difference.

The first is a true statement–YOU don’t ACCEPT that there is a distinction.

The second --which was your statement–is that "there is a distinction without a difference’ and that is a false statement in itself unless you are careful to note that preceeding it as you did with ‘we say’ should be an indication that this is your OPINION and not an attempt to state it as a fact.

My opinion that there is no difference holds no less wieght than yours that there is a difference.

 

[Hisalone]

What Catholics say is that Protestants have no business making unsubstantiated claims and judging as if you can see through the eyes of God.

And what I will say again as an individual Catholic is that Protestants, lacking any credible evidence that you even worship God (since you do not offer up to God the one True and perfect sacrifice of worship (Jesus) in the mass) have demonstrated for 500 years that you do not even recognize worship - much less are in a position to differentiate it from veneration.

Sorry, but from my perspective you protestants that push this nonsence that Catholics worship Mary above hyperdulia/veneration is like the blind telling the seeing that they need glasses.

Absurd.

James

James I will pray for you.

 

[CentralFLJames]

The fact that we say the church doesn’t condone or approve of something doesn’t make it either nonexistant or go away. The Catholic church in my view should scale down the attention given to Mary because too much veneration and adoration and devotion to the Blessed Virgin seems to exacerbate the problem of Mary worship by some parishioners and clergy. Jesus Christ needs our full attention and worship and thanks for his saving grace.

It is charitable of you to be looking after the perceptions and welfare of the Catholic Church if that is your motive. If The Catholic Church took your request to heart and put out a dogmatic declaration saying “Catholics do not and should not worship Mary and only honor Her as one honors their mother” would you respect the dogmatic proclamation and then come into the Church? I doubt it because whether you recognize it or not your fundamental belief is that “you and your bible” are infallable and The Church is not.

Fortunately, The Catholic Church in its wisdom has never subjected Truth to the vote of a majority consensus or individual opinion. The Church holds truth axiomatic and only as has been revealed by Jesus & The Holy Spirit and passed down to us. Had the Church elected to bend its knee to every secular whim and opinion “out there” just to accommodate keeping the pews full it would look just like a flee market. That is, a large web of independent neo-Christian denominations present under one big-tent of “Christianity”. But that would be completely alien to Christian unity and divide the Body of Christ against Himself. But it sure sounds a lot like protestantism doesn’t it? Sorry - I got to call it like it is.

What you propose is asking The Church to conform itself to every wild idea and opinion that is out there just so you can become a member. That is not celebration of One Truth that is a celebration of diversity and choices.

This whole idea makes me call to mind what happens when a “club” tries to be all things to all people.
Groucho Marx:

PLEASE ACCEPT MY RESIGNATION. I DON’T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT PEOPLE LIKE ME AS A MEMBER.

James

 

[pete_29]

James I will pray for you.

Careful, he might start worshipping you.